Just disgusting, terrible!

No candidate running for the Republican Party’s presidential nomination has publically accepted the theory of evolution. Their views on the subject—from the imbecilic observations of neurosurgeon Ben Carson to the disingenuous position of Jeb Bush—are calculated to attract evangelical voters.

Will you look at that. No, seriously, will. you. look. at. that.

Politicians pander to voters at election time. Who would have thought it?

129 thoughts on “Just disgusting, terrible!”

  1. None of them have said anything about string theory, Tabby’s Star, or the mysterious Great Attractor either.

    Richard Feynman for president.

  2. I’m sure I used to read Salon for artsy stuff; I don’t remember it being so full of lefty mentalism. The sidebar of right-on derangement is amazing…

  3. I personally do care a bit if the people I vote for don’t believe in evolution, because it suggests they’re fucking idiots who place stories in a book above facts, science and shit like that. It doesn’t matter until the stories in the book tell them to act in a given way which is unsupported by all the other inputs.

    But that said, what cunts Salon are. Obama, Clinton, Bernie – they all believe and say incredibly stupid shit and the rug gets lifted and under it goes.

  4. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, radical Islam is far less of a threat to me that evangelical Christianity. I highly doubt a Muslim would set off a bomb at the Planned Parenthood office on my local bus route.

  5. TBH, what’s the most damage a biblical creationist can do? Realistically, and not in some fevered kool-aid induced hallucinations.

    An economic creationist such as Sanders, on the other hand, can go Full Venezuela.

    And @LY – since you are so knowledgable, what’s the mainstream Islamic position on abortion?

  6. And isn’t evangelical christian terrorism just a boogeyman dreamt up by MSNBC and the Democrat Party to keep their core vote scared?*

    (*this statement was brought to you by the letter O and the supreme court ruling in the case of Goose vs Gander)

  7. Jerry – I don’t agree with his bongo drums policy, but I do agree with his eating people’s brains policy.

  8. You know those Evangelicals are dangerous – they stopped a whole town from dancing in Footloose. What a bunch of killjoys!

  9. “And isn’t it just a boogeyman ”

    Partly. Mainly it’s just effeminate SJW’s flailing their dainty wrists to virtue signal to each other though.

    If they were really afraid of Bible bashers they’d shut up about them.

  10. There have been a total of eleven murders by anti-abortionists in the USA.

    Quite a few more “bombings”, most of which are ineffective.

    Liberal Yank is probably correct, but only because radical Islam is approximately “no threat whatsoever” to him.

  11. I highly doubt a Muslim would set off a bomb at the Planned Parenthood office on my local bus route.

    Liberal Yank –

    I’ve worked with Muslims on a daily basis for 15 years and I can tell you for a fact that 99% would look you in the eye and tell you you’re full of shit.

    Radical Muslims kill more Muslims than anyone else, and they know it. It’s one of the main reasons they risk life and limb to get to the USA.

    So, I’ll do it for them (and myself): You’re full shit.

  12. “If they were really afraid of Bible bashers they’d shut up about them.”

    Hmmmm. They’re awfully quiet about radical islam… Suspiciously so. 😉

  13. Liberal Yank: “I highly doubt a Muslim would set off a bomb at the Planned Parenthood office on my local bus route.”

    They might hijack and fly the passenger aircraft you’re on into the nearest skyscraper though.

    Wait, what’s that? It’s already been done?

    Gosh! You’d think you’d have learned from that. Wouldn’t you?

  14. Here’s what I call the moron test on the “I fear evangelical Christians more than radical Muslims”:

    1) When was the last time an evangelical Christian videotaped himself beheading an abortion doctor.
    2) When was the last time an evangelical Christian drove a 747 into a skyscraper to protest abortion?
    3) When was the last time and army of evangelical Christians captured women and kept them as sex slaves as part of their greater war on abortion?

    If you still think threat of EC > threat of RI, you’re a moron.

    It’s not just that LY’s proclamation is moronic – and it is – it’s offensively racist. The majority of Muslims fear and loathe radical Muslims, and for all the right reasons. To equate evangelical Christians with ISIS is to denigrate and discount the amount of death and carnage that has been visited upon Muslim communities by these radicals. It only makes sense if you value a white abortion doctor more than thousands of non-white Muslims.

    I can think of more than one of my Muslim friends who’d happily deck you for trying to equate large-scale murder, rape and torture with the isolate bombing of a doctor’s office.

  15. SE: “There have been a total of eleven murders by anti-abortionists in the USA.”

    Murders of abortionists, you mean? Not innocent bystanders?

  16. Just remember, San Bernadino had nothing to do with Islam, it was workplace violence. And Ft Hood had nothing to do with Islam, it was Pre-Traumatic Stress Syndrome. And the Boston Marathon bombing had nothing to do Islam, it was just a Chechen cooking mishap. And the Chattanooga recruiting center shooting had nothing to do with Islam, it was a simply a firearm that happened to be discharging in the hands of a Muslim. And of course 9/11 had nothing to do with Islam (Dubya said so!), it was Boeing’s fault for building such dangerous airplanes. Or maybe Stanley’s fault, because box cutters.

    Once you understand all that, Liberal Yank is quite correct – Evangelical Christianity is far more dangerous than radical Islam.

  17. Then again, why should it surprise me when a liberal American is more concerned with proving his liberal bona fides than dealing responsibly with reality.

    Next stop: Railing about Jews and Israel and advocating discrimination against Asian-Americas.

    Because liberalism.

  18. Surreptitious Evil you got it exactly right. The closest I’ve ever been to Islamic terrorists was the 4th plane that got lost over 14 years ago. The Christians I’m concerned about might even live in my neighborhood.

  19. The Christians I’m concerned about might even live in my neighborhood.

    They’re probably in your garden, sharpening their bibles while waiting for nightfall.

  20. Personally I’m more concerned about the fact that driving without an MOT only gets you a small fine and no points on your license than about either evangelical Christians or ‘radical Islam’, given that the chances of being killed or injured as a result of the former are far, far higher than the chances of ever even being close to being killed or injured by the latter two.

    Why, anyone would think that those complaining about ‘radical Islam’ are just racist nutjobs blowing a few isolated incidents out of all proportion or something…

  21. LY – I strongly suspect that if there was a business in Syria or Iraq that specialised in cutting live babies out of their mothers stomachs and selling the bits to third parties, they would have been chainsawed to pieces by now by the brothers from ISIS.

    The bomb would only have been the beginning.

  22. I strongly suspect that if there was a business in Syria or Iraq that specialised in cutting live babies out of their mothers stomachs and selling the bits to third parties, they would have been chainsawed to pieces by now by the brothers from ISIS.

    Yeah, but the chainsawed wouldn’t be white, and chainsawers wouldn’t be Christian, so in LY’s universe, who gives a shit?

  23. Mrs. Clinton herself wrote about her imaginary conversations with Eleanor Roosevelt in her June 10 column. She said she talked to Roosevelt about the role of a first lady.

    “She usually responds by telling me to buck up”

    Eleanor always gets “b” and “f” mixed up on the old Ouija board.

  24. Not believing in evolution is fairly stupid, though everyone is entitled to an opinion. Believing in multiculturalism is pretty fucking stupid too, but one is belief is more acceptable than the other. Which is more dangerous: believing in multiculturalism or disbelieving evolution?

  25. Evangelical Christians are actually rather charming, and certainly not threatening.

    It can all get a bit cringe-tastic when flags are unfurled and anthems sung – which will always be a point of difference between all Americans and all Brits – however, they’re exactly the people to have around if, say, your car breaks down or whatever.

    They can’t help the very rare nutjob.

  26. America remains blighted by its religiosity. And the rest of us, indirectly. It was kind of chilling watching slitty eyed, wobbly chinned Cruz do the Christian translation of Allahu Akhbar at the start of his I Won Iowa speech. He presumably sees himself as divinely appointed.

    In this day and age. Jesus H.

  27. Faith + believing in Creation is at least consistent.

    Faith + a belief in Evolution is more complicated.

    Liberal Yank may not know this, but Creation is also an Islamic belief.

  28. The bottom line is that in between the end of the Bronze Age and Oil, the only significant Middle Eastern exports have been stupid religions, and it really is time we sent them back and asked for a refund.

  29. @Liberal Yank

    ‘Surreptitious Evil you got it exactly right. The closest I’ve ever been to Islamic terrorists was the 4th plane that got lost over 14 years ago. The Christians I’m concerned about might even live in my neighborhood.

    So as long as it’s someone else’s neighbourhood, who cares?

    The odds are that it might be your neighbourhood are getting shorter by the day – it was nobody’s neighbourhood, effectively, thirty years ago, and 130 people just got butchered in Paris, City of Light, the other day.

    If you’re not an abortionist you really have nothing to fear from the vanishingly small number of abortionist murderers; if you’re Jewish, or gay, or improperly attired, or just in the wriong place (see Paris and lots and lots of other places) then you have a lot to fear from islam.

    Which, at the end of the day, let us never forget, is just a nutty belief in a load of bollocks supposedly dictated by God to a bloke in the desert.

    I’d love to hear your reaction to a guy called John Smith announcing, today, that God wants you to grow a beard without a tache, not eat sausages, and dress your woman in a bag.

    Ironman would cream his pants to bow down before him, especially if his skin was slightly darker than that of the average Scouser, but the rest of us really don’t have to pretend to take it seriously – do we???

  30. There is no more stupid religion than socialism and if Salon says as little as possible about islamics, it says nothing whatsoever about a US Presidential candidate who endorses, avows and advocates a creed that has murdered 150 million human beings in the last hundred years. In the century of science and progress –not in previous centuries of almost universal barbarism. At least Sanders is honest about his support for this particular religion unlike OldBummer and Killery.

    ” The Christians I’m concerned about might even live in my neighborhood.”

    We must just hope that they get you. Your nation will be all the sounder for your loss.

  31. I am impressed that my assessment of the threats to my personal well being for today has created such a strong response. To be fair I guess I should disclose that I do not work anywhere near the bus line. Since, as of now, I have no reason to get on the bus neither of the two original options has much of a chance of happening. Should I start tagging my poor attempts at sarcasm?

    Jack C I actually did know that. In fact I am not aware of any religion that doesn’t have some sort of creation myth.

  32. I still think the general point here is that post-Canaanite monotheism is far more trouble than it’s worth and after 2000 years of grief from it, we ought to say enough is enough.

  33. Beleiving or not beleiving in something doesn’t change whether it exists or not. This table will continue existing whether I beleive in it or not.

  34. So far as I know no candidate has mentioned gravity either.
    Doesn’t tell us whether or not they believe it, just that they see no point in mentioning it.

  35. Mr Ecks it won’t be today. In many ways I can’t wait to be done with this body that doesn’t work correctly. The problem is that there is something I was born to do. I know it doesn’t have anything to do with visual memory as I have none. All I can do is try to continue learning so when I do find it I can move on. This is one of the few places where I feel the level of conversation is evolved enough that I am comfortable asking questions. You comments, although attempting to hurt, are merely just words on the screen. In general your comments add nothing of substance and like any other troll I can just ignore you if that is my mood at the time. Should our host ask me to leave I will. Until that time or when I find what I need here I will stay. All that you need to know is that when I am no longer here I will not remember you. As I am here now I will wish you luck with the demons that torment you.

  36. This is one of the few places where I feel the level of conversation is evolved enough that I am comfortable asking questions.

    Wanky fish poo.

  37. If Arnald and I haven’t been booted nobody’s questioning your right to post.

    But if you post a load of leftist bollocks about how you are in danger from a crew –that compared to islam let alone socialism–couldn’t knock the skin off a rice pudding you can hardly complain about withering scorn.

    The only demon that torments me is the fact that despite millions of killings and tyrannies beyond number the world is still full of state-suckers and leftists and seems ever more determined to throw itself back on the non-existent mercy of such scum.

  38. Liberal Y, recently I’ve haunted these parts more than I’ve contributed to them. And hitherto, I’ve appreciated your contributions (for various reasons, which need not concern us).

    But, above, you were not being ironic. You’re in a hole. Stop digging. Let’s move on.

  39. Would it help you to know that although I could have been on welfare years ago the only direct benefits I have claimed was a brief period of unemployment. I hate the notion of collecting something that I haven’t earned and struggle to understand how some people want to live that way. I am a pragmatist though that understands I very well may need the assistance I’ve paid taxes to allow others to receive my whole life.

    As to the Islamic problem I have watched the action of my government make things worse at almost every turn. Instead of just Arab basing can we try to find some way of dealing with the problem that doesn’t involve us blowing them up.

    This is just a random thought but would it be possible to convince Greece to take them all provided all debt is forgiven and the costs of the refugees are paid. Some type of work would have to be found so that these, mostly men, aren’t just sitting around. Hell have them dig holes and refill them if you have to but make sure they get some form of pay. Once they have a stable place to be then some European leader could step up and find a peace deal in Syria so they can go the fuck home. The income that they can take back with them could be useful for rebuilding their homes.

  40. I forgot the stick. Make sure there are plenty of troops that could respond quickly in neighboring countries. If engineering groups are included then these troops could be used to help improve infrastructure while they are deployed.

  41. LY-

    Ignore terrorism and politics as well come to that. Consider this. Suppose you live in a nice liberal town, gay bars and environmentalist local laws, and everyone’s progressive and so on.

    Now suppose that huge numbers of hardcore Bible Belt evangelicals descend on it to live there. What do you think is going to happen to your nice liberal environment? What will it be like to be gay, for instance, when you find the town council has Evangelicals getting elected onto it?

    This is about demographics, because your environment basically is demographics. You can politely make your case as much as you like, but numbers win out.

    And destroying Greek society isn’t a solution either.

  42. “have them dig holes and refill them”

    Yes, this is just the place to suggest such a policy. Here and Samizdata.

  43. Great, now you’re spending a fortune on spades, safety boots and transportation for the work gangs as well.

  44. Ian B I could never say it that well. I just choose to be more wary of the closer threat to my way of life changing. I won’t explain why further now but in my mind there is a reason for everything.

    Is having them spread out working better than it was? If not what is a better plan?

  45. LY-

    My view is that the only plan is to stop them coming. There is a virtually inexhaustible supply of potential migrants in the rest of the world. Even a fraction of them will overwhelm Europe rapidly. There simply isn’t room for them here.

    Areas in crisis need to sort their own problems out.

  46. What are you going to do about the ones already there?

    They didn’t bring enough women which is never a good thing. Even if they did have enough women do you want them there or back in their home country?

  47. Send them back at the earliest opportunity. We’re at a stage now where there aren’t any nice options. It could have been stopped before we got to this point, but it wasn’t, so here we are.

  48. I agree with sending them back as soon as possible. What do you propose to stop new arrivals from reaching Europe?

  49. This is one of the few places where I feel the level of conversation is evolved enough that I am comfortable asking questions.

    Never write stuff like that when I’m drinking coffee. Now I have clean off the monitor and the desk.

    Don’t get me wrong… I really like this site, and I own all of Tim’s books, but, well, if this is your idea of elevated conversation, things must really be rough where you are.

  50. Looking at US presidential candidates (or even politicians in general) does tend to make me wonder if there aren’t some major flaws in evolutionary theory

  51. Liberal Yank

    Refugee camps in friendly Maghreb countries where real refugees can be sorted from illegal migrants. Illegal migrants can stay in the camps unless they choose to go home. Deport all illegal immigrants to said camps if they refuse to return home. Fingerprint all illegals – any who make it back to Europe should automatically be deported back to the camps – with a permanent ban on entry in future. ECHR not to apply. No path to citizenship for illegals. Unaccompanied minors who are not genuine refugees to be deported to camps when they reach 18.

    Real refugees and asylum seekers to receive the treatment required by international law.

    Basically the Aussie solution. Although I’d make them follow international law and let in real asylum seekers. (People in fear of persecution – because they have nowhere else to go.)

  52. What do you propose to stop new arrivals from reaching Europe?

    I s’pose we could set the Salvation Army on them.

    But my preferred option is mountains of skulls.

  53. I like this gentleman Liberal Yank being around. He’s given me an idea: We could rework the greatest migration story from human history (?) which was the 19th century migration of the tired and the hungry to the USA through Ellis island. Let’s say it cost around £5k in today’s money to cross the Atlantic back then.

    The idea is that any one who is willing to pay £5k for a visa stamped NRTPF can come to the UK through a medium sized processing centre on an island, let’s call it Valley airport on Anglesey. If they are identifiable, disease-free and not a criminal by our standards then they can come in. If they fail the checks, then they go back whence they came.

    No need for immigrant smugglers as there is a safe legal route, just go to your local british consulate, make your application and hand over your money.
    Heck the Assad regime is issuing Syrian passports for 400 USD a time to people who are clearly not Syrian, but hey, foreign exchange and that. The smugglers are charging 1000 USD to cross the Med. Let’s enter this market too but set our own prices.

  54. That’s the spirit Henry Marsh. You have lemons, might as well set up a lemonade stand. I bet Jamaica wouldn’t mind selling some sugar for a cut of that £5k.

  55. So Much For Subtlety

    Liberal Yank – “I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, radical Islam is far less of a threat to me that evangelical Christianity. I highly doubt a Muslim would set off a bomb at the Planned Parenthood office on my local bus route.”

    There is next to no chance that an Evangelical would either. This may be true in a statistical sense but only because there are so many buffers between you and those Muslims. Move into a Muslim area – even one in Britain – and it is no longer true. Move into one in Nigeria and you would be dead in hours.

    The fact is you are sheltering behind the bodies of the kidnapped girls of Chibok. Not brave, not glorious, but all those hard men willing to use violence protect you and your right to be stupid.

  56. So Much For Subtlety

    Surreptitious Evil – “There have been a total of eleven murders by anti-abortionists in the USA.”

    In a country of three hundred million that is roughly f**k all. Even more so as about two of them have been done for religious reasons.

    Evangelicals are no threat to anyone. Leftists on the other hand continue to provide most domestic terrorism in the US.

  57. So Much For Subtlety

    Henry Marsh – “We could rework the greatest migration story from human history (?) which was the 19th century migration of the tired and the hungry to the USA through Ellis island.”

    Which ruined America – or at least all of those parts of America where those immigrants could reach and came to dominate. America is great because of its Northern European immigrants. The Irish and all those that came through Ellis Island have only given different degrees of dysfunction.

    Liberal Yank – “That’s the spirit Henry Marsh. You have lemons, might as well set up a lemonade stand. I bet Jamaica wouldn’t mind selling some sugar for a cut of that £5k.”

    Yeah. Because inviting the Muslims in worked so well for the Byzantines, the Coptic Christians and the Spanish. Like the Spanish the only solution is a 1492 one.

    The solution to boat arrivals is simple – tow the boats back out beyond the 200 mile EEC zone. They believe in God. They can entrust themselves to Him.

  58. As regards evangelicals ,Ronald Reagan made his Evil Empire speech to a gathering of evangelicals saying that a father should kill his children rather than they live under Communism (and shat his pants about girls getting contraception advice in confidence without parents being tipped off).Since he also thought he could win a nuclear war, preferably fought in Europe, by development of Pershing and Cruise , thoroughly spooking East and West Germany as in Deutschland 93, I think you can say evangelicals are a fucking dangerous influence on psychotic American politicians .

  59. Liberal Yank,
    “can we try to find some way of dealing with the problem that doesn’t involve us blowing them up”

    There’s a flaw here, and it’s the common, insulated, Western view of the Islamic problem. It’s not all Dubya’s fault.

    The West has done a fair amount of blowing stuff up to be sure, but not on the same scale. Blowing people up is the preferred option for Islamists, whether they’re interacting with the West, or with The Other Lot (Sunni/Shiite, delete as appropriate).

    Apologists will often point out that Muslims suffer far more from Islamic terrorism than anyone else. But then fail to think through why that is.

    Clearly, bombing bits of the Middle East is not a great Western success story. It may have reduced attacks on the West though, and there is certainly no right answer.

  60. So Much For Subtlety

    DBC Reed – “Since he also thought he could win a nuclear war, preferably fought in Europe”

    Actually while I should not feed the trolls, when Reagan came into office, they gave him the SIOP briefing for nuclear war. He listened. He looked at the plans. He read the reports. And then he told his staff that he did not think he could in all morality launch nuclear weapons at the Soviets. Even if they attacked.

    They told him that for God’s sake he wasn’t to tell anyone.

    But, of course, hence Star Wars. His way of making sure he did not have to.

    As usual nothing the troll says is remotely related to reality.

  61. SMFS I see no King Sobieski’s hussars ready to ride to the rescue. It might be a good idea to fire up the blast furnaces and build a few light coastal patrol craft just in case.

  62. Correction: I’ve just learned from the internet that “Comedian Bob Hope ( England )” was an Ellis Island immigrant.
    I withdraw all my comments approving immigration and to Liberal Yank, if you’ve ever heard of this Bob Hope guy, as an englishman I’m sorry.

  63. So Much For Subtlety

    Liberal Yank – “I see no King Sobieski’s hussars ready to ride to the rescue. It might be a good idea to fire up the blast furnaces and build a few light coastal patrol craft just in case.”

    Nor do I. So the West will fall and the long darkness descend. All because people like you despise themselves too much to defend what should be defended – school girls for instance. This being a good example:

    Liberal Yank – “As to the Islamic problem I have watched the action of my government make things worse at almost every turn. Instead of just Arab basing can we try to find some way of dealing with the problem that doesn’t involve us blowing them up.”

    How has the American government made things worse? The US tried to bring democracy to Iraq with troops on the ground. The world did not like it. The Iraqis rejected that and opted to attack each other’s knee caps with power drills. So the next time the US got dragged into the Arabs’ idiotic problems, in Libya, they opted simply for air power with no ground troops. How did that work out? When they got dragged in again, in Syria, they opted for essentially no air strikes as well as no ground troops. How is that working out?

    The common factor here is not the Americans. The US government is not making things worse. This is how Islam is. This is Europe’s future.

  64. DBC Reed are you aware of the recently declassified 83 Able Archer documents? I’m well aware that much of the world is afraid we will bomb them at any time. That is on my other computer if you haven’t seen it.

  65. Reagan took office in 1980; Cruise missiles were in the UK by 1981. He REALLY knew how to get things done especially as the Russian version, the SS-20, had been in place since 1976.

  66. SMFS the Kurds are taking full advantage of this to try to create their own state. If we could only find a way to have them get along with the Turks then we might actually have a chance at a success.

  67. So Much For Subtlety

    Liberal Yank – “the Kurds are taking full advantage of this to try to create their own state. If we could only find a way to have them get along with the Turks then we might actually have a chance at a success.”

    And that would just leave the rest of the Middle East in a mess with no obvious solution. Although helping the Jews create their own ethnic state didn’t exactly help us. Why do you think helping the Kurds do the same would? What are you going to say to those who say that the new Kurdish state is to blame for all that is wrong with the world? What can you say to the other 66% of Iraqis and 90% of Syrians who loudly object to their countries being carved up into bits and blame America for it?

    There is only one solution to the Middle East – Anne Coulter’s solution. We need to invade and convert them to Christianity.

  68. LY,
    This Reed, incredible though it might seem, mourns the loss of the USSR. There really are some that do.

    Of course, like others of his ilk, he imagines he would been part of the elite, guiding the workers towards their glorious future.

    Maybe an academic, teaching some suitably self-congratulatory tosh. Maybe denouncing a colleague every now and then for a little light diversion, or to get an improved parking space.

    Odious.

  69. There is only one solution to the Middle East – Anne Coulter’s solution. We need to invade and convert them to Christianity.

    Nah. We can’t even convert the Archbishop of Canterbury to Christianity, so it’s not gonna work in Mecca.

    If people are too wobbly for my “Mountain of Skulls” policy, the next best alternative is the Triple-D plan.

    Deport, Disengage, Deter.

    Show our rapefugees the door. Frack the shit out of our own hydrocarbon resources so we don’t need to deal with goat-humpers. Keep the medieval religious fanatics where they belong.

    All very low tech and simple, no massive airlifts or expensive occupations necessary. Maybe we can spice it up a bit by dropping the odd KEW on the barbarians when they look like they want a ruck. Just for shits ‘n’ giggles.

  70. Steve calls it right. We should never have got involved with them. Let them rot in their own evil.

    Nothing can be done without also lining up the enemy within-the left– for destruction.

    No need to kill just —
    1-Cut the cash
    2-Get them out of their propaganda advantage by ending the state domination and licencing of media that enables the bastards.

    That and the fact that it is time the bastards had their noses rubbed in their own shite. Every time the Pol-puke( and Milne and all the rest) open their gobs–“Why is it that socialism has murdered 150 million people so far?” should be the question. And no let up from that point on.

  71. So Much For Subtlety

    Jack C – “We’d be better off trying to convert them to cricket. #WhatWouldJohnnersDo”

    Like we did with those jolly Sub-Continent chaps? Because, of course, now cricket is the national sport of Pakistan, we never get any Pakistani terrorists, do we?

  72. So Much For Subtlety

    Steve – “Nah. We can’t even convert the Archbishop of Canterbury to Christianity, so it’s not gonna work in Mecca.”

    So we are f**ked. Victory goes to those on the offensive, not those hunched in a permanent defensive crouch. Sure, at times that offensive may be Somme-like but Britain won that war.

    “If people are too wobbly for my “Mountain of Skulls” policy, the next best alternative is the Triple-D plan. Deport, Disengage, Deter.”

    The Byzantium defence. It works fine. Right up to the time you are weak even for one day. Then it no longer works. Ask the Greeks. Or in our case, when our treasonous elites think we are not looking again and up their plans to flood us with Muslims.

    We ruled Muslim countries for varying periods of time. We did nothing to convert them to our ways. They will end up ruling Europe and we will not survive. This is existential. Either we continue to exist or we do not. We have chosen not to go on existing. We should choose otherwise.

    Everyone in this discussion assumes that they will convert the other. The Muslims, obviously. But also the Left. They think that the Muslims are natural allies in the struggle against traditional Britain – and once the Left explains to them, slowly, the benefits of the NHS, they will be converted to Fabianism. Because they do not take their own religion seriously they do not take other people’s seriously either. The Right is not so stupid.

    Victory goes to the least tolerant. That should be us.

  73. Refugee camps in friendly Maghreb countries where real refugees can be sorted from illegal migrants.

    And Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states need to take in Syrian refugees. They’ve got the oil money; they can afford it.

  74. “Either we continue to exist or we do not. We have chosen not to go on existing. We should choose otherwise.”

    What’s this “we” kemo sabe?

    The scum at the top–ie the left did the choosing. Not the mythical “us”.

    We need a plan to unseat and destroy the left. That accomplished–or even well under way–we can mop up the RoP as an afterthought.

  75. If “we” did convert them to Christianity, they’d turn into rabid Christians who kill people for not worshipping God the right way. Christians only stopped doing that due to exhaustion after all the bloodshed of the Reformation. You’re not going to get vicarage tea party Christians, you’re going to get Onward Christian Soldiers in the literal sense.

    Anyway, that isn’t going to happen, especially as Christendom is rapidly de-christianising.

    This is a semitic monotheism problem. They don’t need converting to another form of it. They need de-religionising.

  76. So Much For Subtlety

    Ian B – “If “we” did convert them to Christianity, they’d turn into rabid Christians who kill people for not worshipping God the right way.”

    When was the last time a Maronite killed anyone for not worshipping right?

    “You’re not going to get vicarage tea party Christians, you’re going to get Onward Christian Soldiers in the literal sense.”

    That would still be an improvement.

    As I said, the Left thinks conversion to their point of view will be easy. They have nothing but contempt for all religion after all. Ian B has not moved far from that CiF view. He is, I think, wrong. Belief is a stubborn thing and it is hard to change. Conservatives at least respect other people’s religious beliefs in that fundamental sense.

  77. So Much For Subtlety

    Steve – “doom-mongering and defeatism is so gay.”

    Shhh. I am trying to stay in the closet. There is not even the beginning of a sign that we have turned the tide. We are doomed because our treasonous elites are determined to destroy us. Given there are 3 million Muslims in Britain already to be honest they have destroyed us already. It is only a matter of time.

    What miracle could happen now? Gideon’s budget this year calls for another million immigrants.

  78. SMFS-

    I am saying that you are not going to get your kind of Christians. European Christians (and remnants in the ME) are the result of 2000 years of cultural development. We didn’t get Christianity last week. Christianity in European Christendom is consequential to European culture.

    The reason Islam is the way it is is because of Arabic culture. Just as Christianity incorporates European values, Islam incorporates Arabic values. We are agrarians (mainly) from a rainy, fertile continent. They are pastoralists from a desert. You won’t get the Christianity of rural Kent. You’ll get the Christianity of Arabian bedouin.

    Religious people tend to claim that all good comes from their religion. They do not understand that religions reflect prior values rather than creating them. Islamic “modesty” does not come from God (for instance). It comes from Arabian society, in which clans plunder each other, including the females, and thus you must have some system of control and purdah.

    Even if this were possible, you’d end up with Christian jihadists blowing up aeroplanes because they believe us Europeans are ungodly and Not Doing It Right. Especially as new converts tend to be the most zealous of worshippers; it’s no coincidence that the wave of Protestant fanaticism began among the recently converted Northern Europeans beyond the Olive Line.

  79. Also, I don’t have “contempt” for religion. It just seems to me to be obviously, demonstrably wrong in a factual sense. Ted Cruz can point at the sky and intone “To God be the glory” all he likes, but there’s nothing up there listening. And as an (increasingly nativist) European, I see no reason at all to carry on worshipping a god invented by late Bronze Age palestinian shepherds. Yahweh is just nothing to do with us. Small country far away of which we know little, and all that.

    Honestly; when I was a kid I went to church, played the innkeeper in a nativity, all that. We had several Bibles in the house. One had maps of “The Holy Land” in the back and I clearly remember looking at them with puzzlement; they may as well have been maps of Narnia. I could never see what this obviously geographically specific religio-cultural[1] system had got to do with me. Shepherds who lived in tents who, quelle surprise thought that their God was a shepherd who lived in a tent.

    It’s not contempt. It’s just nothing to do with us. Just as modern American hysteria about racial civil rights was never anything to do with us. Let’s be ourselves again. Anyone for a Beltane Feast?

    [1] Okay, my terminology was not quite so high falutin’ then, you get the drift.

  80. Quite. In the days when Europe was properly Christian, religious wars and related carnage was endemic.

    Followed by new belief systems and industrialised mayhem in the 1st half of the 20th century.

    Followed by, “fuck that for a game of soldiers” and relative peace.

    It’s easy to mock modern European “Christianity”, but we should be hugely grateful that we don’t have the real thing.

  81. “Ted Cruz can point at the sky and intone “To God be the glory” all he likes”

    The awkward bit here is that he’s running for President of the US. The US is still, relatively, very Christian to be sure, but it’s still a little divisive.

    Who knows whether the US is still majority Christian or not … hard to say. Probably not if you look at Church attendance, even if Americans are notably un-squeamish about professing their faith.

  82. I would hope that the majority is still Christian but in a different way from the past.

    The faults of earlier Christian can not be attributed to God but instead to the men who claimed to speak for him. Greater education has led to more openness in the discussion of all things including religion. Having a government, that may turn on you one day, that doesn’t use force to support religion is a good thing in many peoples minds. If your sanctuary from your religion’s oppressors isn’t needed it won’t get used as much.

  83. LY: “Greater education has led to more openness in the discussion of all things including religion. “

    Which is why CIF recently announced their ‘pull the duvet over your head and cower’ policy, right?

  84. So Much For Subtlety

    Ian B – “I am saying that you are not going to get your kind of Christians. European Christians (and remnants in the ME) are the result of 2000 years of cultural development.”

    I am not sure what my type of Christians are. I am certain you do not know. What I do know is that Maronites and Assyrians and Copts manage to combine being Arab and Christian without being mass murderers. By and large. They may not be solid Dutch burgers but they are better than the Muslims.

    “They do not understand that religions reflect prior values rather than creating them. Islamic “modesty” does not come from God (for instance). It comes from Arabian society, in which clans plunder each other, including the females, and thus you must have some system of control and purdah.”

    Except this is ahistoric. For a start religions do create values. The practice of honour killing is a direct result of Islamic law that makes the father the recipient of the blood money for the daughter he killed and essentially prohibits the punishment of rapists. Especially as the majority of Arab society has never had time for purdah or the veil. Peasants needed the female labour. The nomads never bothered. The veil is the imposition of the urban population on both farmers and nomads.

    “Even if this were possible, you’d end up with Christian jihadists blowing up aeroplanes because they believe us Europeans are ungodly and Not Doing It Right.”

    There has never been a terrorist attack by a Christian Arab for Christian reasons I can think of. For one thing Churches are run by old men. Not free-for-alls that allow young men to do what they like in their religion’s name. Old men don’t like that sort of thing and so Catholics, as one example, don’t do it.

    Ian B – “Also, I don’t have “contempt” for religion.”

    Umm, yes you do. It is not merely wrong in your opinion. You are openly contemptuous of anyone who holds values that you deem inherently evil – and contemptuous of their intelligence given they cannot see what you so clearly can.

  85. SMFS-

    It’s not contempt to point out that something is wrong.

    As to the rest, I don’t think you’ve understood what I said. Or don’t want to. Where do you think the values in Islamic law came from? From God? Ex nihilo? They are the values of Arabic culture. The same as the ones in the Jewish Torah are the values of Jewish society (very similar bedouin ones).

    Islamic Law is just that social system, attributed to God. Some were inherited from Judaism, probably, too.

    Unless you think Jibril really did dictate them to Mo in a cave.

    Interesting factoid of the week: Philistine cuisine was dominated by the meats of pig and dog, according to the bones they threw away.

  86. So Much For Subtlety

    Liberal Yank – “The faults of earlier Christian can not be attributed to God but instead to the men who claimed to speak for him.”

    What faults? Burning people at the stake is not a fault. In fact it is entirely admirable when Nelson Mandela does it. Needless to say your two options are 1. God is made up so naturally they did not speak for anyone but themselves or 2. They were speaking for God. There is no third option.

    “Greater education has led to more openness in the discussion of all things including religion.”

    Except, as the Fragrant Julia pointed out, at CiF. It is odd that then that three of the four main Death Squads that went about killing Jews were commanded by men with Ph.D.s and one of them had two doctorates.

    “Having a government, that may turn on you one day, that doesn’t use force to support religion is a good thing in many peoples minds.”

    Many people being …. what? Not even close to most people’s. Not even in America I expect.

    “If your sanctuary from your religion’s oppressors isn’t needed it won’t get used as much.”

    Why would that be a good thing?

  87. So Much For Subtlety

    Ian B – “It’s not contempt to point out that something is wrong.”

    Yes it is or it can be. I don’t share a lot of beliefs with other people but I can look at any given religion and accept that a lot of intelligent well educated people believe it. You seem to think that only retarded five year olds can.

    “Where do you think the values in Islamic law came from? From God? Ex nihilo? They are the values of Arabic culture.”

    Except they are not. It is not that simple. There is a complex interplay of influence going on. For instance, it is impossible to convict anyone in the Muslim world for rape because one day Muhammed’s favourite (18 year old at that point I believe) wife got separated from the rest of the caravan and she did not rejoin them until the next day. In the company of a handsome young soldier. Tongues were wagging. Where upon Muhammed retreated into his tent, had a quick chat with God (or the next best thing) and was told that you could not convict anyone of sexual misconduct without four adult male eye witnesses. Anyone who said bad things about people without said eye witnesses would be flogged.

    That is not *from* Arab culture. That is a powerful influence *on* Arab culture.

    Ian B – “And there wouldn’t be any Islamic terrorism either if we were as hard on them as they are on Dhimmis.”

    For a short time. Chechens have been expressing their feelings about the past in Russia recently. Shia have been expressing their feelings about the even longer ago past, if that is an expression, in Iraq recently.

  88. In the days when Europe was properly Christian, religious wars and related carnage was endemic.

    It was, but the 30 Years War was as much about regional politics and power blocs competing for influence/control as it was religion.

  89. @DBC Reed

    Slightly OT but re this:

    ‘Ronald Reagan made his Evil Empire speech to a gathering of evangelicals saying that a father should kill his children rather than they live under Communism (and shat his pants about girls getting contraception advice in confidence without parents being tipped off).’

    Did he say that? Can you show a link and a direct quote?

    Re the pill, a chap who worked for me had a fifteen year old daughter who was prescribed the pill without parental knowledge. She developed a DVT and died, mostly because the parents (not knowing of the prescription) didn’t realise quickly enough what the symptoms might be. Still, fuck it. You lot have never minded a few broken eggs to create the omelette.

    @Everyone else

    The likes of Ironman will have the blood of thousands on their hands soon enough, because they have closed down all debate about islam as ‘racist’, despite islam being a belief system dictated by an angel 1400 years ago which is followed by people of all races. I predict mass casualty attacks in our towns – maybe Liberal Yank’s town too – in the next few years, and heaven knows what reaction. I wonder if the children of the enablers will be among the dead? If they are, some will doubtless glow with pride at their sacrifice. It’s suicidally insane.

  90. SMFS-

    That’s if you believe that the Quran is some kind of historical document. You know how long it took to get written down? Even if we accept that it is literally the words of Mo, again he is just reflecting his cultural milieu, although adding in some stuff from Judaism which he apparently thought he was the last prophet of (and then turned against the Jews when they rejected that claim).

    Social systems evolve in response to local conditions. In herding societies, you need large numbers of male relatives to protect the herds. This leads to intense family ties, which leads to the need to fiercely control sexuality, and particularly the women who are the egg binding the cake together. And from that you get the kind of laws we see in the Semitic religions.

    European agrarians, different social system. Different rules. Which is why European Christianity is the most different of the Big Three, and why whenever it has an outbreak of fundamentalism (as with the Protestants) it gets all Puritan and Semitic and obsessed with controlling sexuality. I leave it as an exercise for the reader to decide whether there is a correlation or coincidence with the Old Testament Christianity of America, and their major herding culture (in which even wealthy businessmen like to wear cowboy hats).

    I don’t share a lot of beliefs with other people but I can look at any given religion and accept that a lot of intelligent well educated people believe it. You seem to think that only retarded five year olds can.

    Not at all. I quite accept that intelligent and well educated people can believe in nonsense. This is precisely the problem we have with the academic Progressive Left. The problem with clever people is they often apply their brainpower to justifying bullshit, rather than reconsidering it.

  91. So Much For Subtlety

    Ian B – “That’s if you believe that the Quran is some kind of historical document.”

    Actually that would be a hadith which took even longer. But Islamic law is exceptional. No one else asks for four adult male eyewitnesses to rape.

    “Even if we accept that it is literally the words of Mo, again he is just reflecting his cultural milieu”

    Except he is also reflecting what he did and thought which grew out of that milieu and changed it. His first wife, for instance, had a business career that Muhammed made sure could never happen again. His rules changed that milieu as well as were shaped by it.

    “Social systems evolve in response to local conditions. In herding societies, you need large numbers of male relatives to protect the herds. This leads to intense family ties, which leads to the need to fiercely control sexuality, and particularly the women who are the egg binding the cake together. And from that you get the kind of laws we see in the Semitic religions.”

    So China then has the same sort of society as the Middle East? It does have a strong interest in large numbers of male relatives, intense family ties, fiercely controlling (female) sexuality. So it should follow that we are up to our elbows in Chinese suicide bombers?

    “European agrarians, different social system. Different rules.”

    And yet you think Christianity is still Semitic.

  92. China, Arabia, apples, oranges. The current violence is due to a general cultural panic among Muslims who (not altogether unreasonably) recognise that in cultural terms, it’s us or them. You’re drawing the wrong correlation here.

    Christendom is a constant battle between native European values (roughly, the “liberal” side) and Semitic values via Christianity. That the Semitic values don’t work well in our different context is precisely why they wax and wane and need constant revivals and so on. As soon as the pressure goes off, we go back to our lax European ways and individualism and so on.

    One way to look at it is that Christendom made some rather weak lemonade out of the Judaic lemon.

  93. “It just seems to me to be obviously, demonstrably wrong in a factual sense. Ted Cruz can point at the sky and intone “To God be the glory” all he likes, but there’s nothing up there listening. ”

    Prove it.

    Neither side can. So atheism (or miserable-ism as it might better be called) cannot be demonstrated to be true either . It remains another belief system. One that can be relatively benign or–as in socialism– an integral part of the evil.

    Like all human phenomena–man being flawed right down to the root.

    Belief in God as such is not all that relevant to this discussion since so-called secularism produces beliefs –socialism again–that function as a religion even while they deny the same. And the “cultural” is ultimately the result of the personal.

    Mostly such arguments boil down to an ego-trip on one side or the other.

  94. Prove that the angel Jibril didn’t tell Mohammed that he is the final prophet of God, and I’ll get back to you, Ecks.

  95. I just wrote to the effect that neither belief in the existence of a Deity or the absence of a Deity is provable.

    So your beliefs are no more soundly based than the Jibrilators.

    They are likely less problematical–but no more solid.

  96. There is only one solution. The modern equivalent of Little Boy and Fat Boy on Mecca and Raqqa. Then a tersely worded diplomatic despatch telling them to behave or else.

  97. Blaise Pascal said to look at it in terms of a rational gamble:

    You believe in God and it exists, you win. If it doesn’t, you lose nothing, you become dust.

    You don’t believe in God and it exists, you lose. It doesn’t, you do not win anything, you become dust.

    Rational choice.

  98. Tim Newman,
    “In the days when Europe was properly Christian, religious wars and related carnage was endemic.

    It was, but the 30 Years War was as much about regional politics and power blocs competing for influence/control as it was religion.”

    Much the same as the Middle East now then.

  99. Burning people at the stake is not a fault. In fact it is entirely admirable when Nelson Mandela does it.

    I’m not quite sure how to interpret that statement. Are you saying you admire young Mandela who sought to destroy society through violence?

    I have a feeling if you didn’t name him and just described the crimes very few people would say Mandela didn’t deserve to go to jail. I have always seen him as a young punk that actually changed in prison. Somehow he managed to change despite the system which is admirable. Unless you show me when old Mandela did that I don’t see your point.

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