Nato matey, Nato

Eurosceptics should visit a military cemetery, Jean-Claude Juncker said yesterday, as he warned that the “enormous stupidity” of two world wars could return to Europe.
The president of the European Commission appeared to mock David Cameron’s renegotiation, saying the Prime Minister was grateful for his aid in resolving his “self-induced problem”.
“Peace is never a sure thing. Anyone who thinks that peace is set in eternity is fundamentally wrong. And there is war again in Europe,” Mr Juncker said, referring to conflict in Ukraine.
He warned that the refugee crisis poses a risk to the “highly sensitive” Balkans follows conflicts in Kosovo and Bosnia.
“Europe gains whenever we point out that Europe is a major project for peace.
“Whoever does not believe in Europe, who doubts Europe, whoever despairs of Europe, should visit the military cemeteries in Europe.”

There is, of course, another way to approach this problem. Let’s go with Barroso’s comment, that the purpose of the EU is to stop Germany invading France. Again.

OK, so, a general rules that e-ciggies should be taxed like tobacco halts the Panzergruppen in what manner? Quite, so a general rule that e-ciggies should be taxed like tobacco is not part of the EU’s remit then, is it?

In short, if you want to use the pace reasoning then you can fuck off with 99% of what you’re actually doing.

23 thoughts on “Nato matey, Nato”

  1. “Mr Juncker is said to have been particularly upset by reports that surfaced during the contest in British newspapers about the war record of his father…

    Don’t mention the {censored}!

  2. So Much For Subtlety

    So which side did his father fight on? Or like a lot of non-German Europeans was it both?

    He warned that the refugee crisis poses a risk to the “highly sensitive” Balkans follows conflicts in Kosovo and Bosnia.

    His recollection of the Balkans might differ from mine, but I distinctly remember that the EU was worth f**k all in the former Yugoslavia and, despite America waiting for them to do something, nothing got done until America lost patience and bombed the [email protected] out of the Serbs themselves.

    In fact the EU’s only contribution was probably that French officer who gave details of the US war plans to the Serbs and so allowed them to shoot down a Stealth Fighter.

  3. The EU is complicit in the current invasion by hostile colonists of military age, against the wishes of individual nations. Without the EU, Nato could perhaps be patrolling the Eastern and Southern Mediterranean to prevent traffickers from leaving port.

  4. The Meissen Bison

    Swastikas in Athens give the town rather a retro look – the EU as style guru, I suppose.

  5. Junker should visit the war cemeteries and read all of the American names there.

    The mention of Ukraine is apposite. He thinks the EU prevents war. Russia is fighting in the Ukraine, so they obviously don’t give a fuck about the EU.

    Cynical old bastard exploiting war sacrifices to shore up his shithouse project.

  6. “Eurosceptics should visit a military cemetery, Jean-Claude Juncker said yesterday”

    Yes. A WWI war cemetery in particular. It would be instructive. The seeds of the EU were planted in the inter-war period by Jean Monnet and Arthur Salter. It. Is. That. Old. Completely irrelevant to the modern world but by hook or by crook they still want to create a United States of Europe in order to secure a peace* that that has already been with us for longer than many of us have been alive.

    * Or in order to compete with the US as a superpower. They have many other excuses too.

  7. As Gareth says, US-envy is also a driving force. Americans are, after all, ghastly vulgarians, many of whom are openly engaged in trade amongst other unseemly pursuits.

    I for one am grateful to Mr Juncker for helping Britain, despite our yobbish willfulness.

  8. The Meissen Bison

    Liberal Yank: What is wrong with a United States of Europe assuming a decent constitution?

    Nothing from the UK’s perspective, as long as the UK is not part of it.

    Well, nothing other than having an unstable monolith on our doorstep – rather like the Ottoman empire but two centuries later and rather closer to home.

  9. What is wrong with a United States of Europe assuming a decent constitution?

    Because if you call all the shots then you can wipe your arse on the constitution as the US is in the process of demonstrating.

    The problem with the EU is the real power is held by bureaucrats and appointees who cannot be ousted by any democratic means.

    The resolution to this will eventually end up in civil war just as the US situation did in the 1860’s.

    I’d rather Britain left the EU before that happened as I’d prefer to watch the fighting on TV rather than through the living room window.

  10. Liberal Yank: “What is wrong with a United States of Europe assuming a decent constitution?”

    Because there is no common first language, the states are economically and culturally divergent (and many are corrupt), it’s a Franco-German ramp, basic democratic accountability is lacking, and the electorates of Europe don’t in general want it.

    Got that?

  11. My understanding of the situation is now far better than it was two months ago.

    MB:

    That is a large concern. I doubt that Russia likes the idea of Germany and France working together, especially if they are militarizing, either. With the stubborn Englishmen out of the way is there a third continental power to maintain a semblance of balance?

    JG:

    The largest problem the EU has is the authoritarian bureaucracy. At first I was going to brush off the comparison to slavery. On closer examination authoritarianism includes more broad uses of slavery so the point is valid.

    The big question is if NATO can survive the current political transitions? If the answer is yes then it makes no difference whether Britain is in our out of the EU. If the answer is no then we have a serious discussion.

    Personally I would feel better about a pan-European state if it includes Britain. If there were to be a civil war you’ll be dragged in and we’ll have to call out some doughboys. In the end the results would be the same. At least with Britain in you can attempt to get a better system to avoid a collapse. Since a yes vote to leave the EU would take time to implement this leaves time for the EU to enact positive changes. A no vote increases the likelihood of no changes, as well as a war.

  12. LY

    Actually there are quite a few similarities between the EU today and the US back at the end of the War of Independence. You can (with many caveats) equate the current EU elites as being Jeffersonians with a vision of a stronger central state – the nationalists of Europe then being cast as Jacksonians. The EU has already arrogated powers to itself far in excess of what the Federal US government had – for example on health and safety, labour etc. What it does not have is a military or a Demos, meaning that transfers between states is difficult – not dissimilar to the arguments over the debt of the states after the war of independence.

    The US federal state developed over time and gained powers as stuff like the inter-state commerce clause was interpreted more generously. The EU state has already seized quite substantial powers – but with a tiny budget.

    I suspect that it will end badly, by which I mean shooting. Which will foster the fantasists in their belief that the EU brought peace, but which will really just have laid bare the costs of their fantasy.

    My basic position on Europe is that the UK is as well off in as out. The EU is far better off with the UK in, mainly because it is a voice of reason (unlike the Germans – who are Eurofantasists). I also begin with the default position that anyone who argues that the EU brought peace to Europe is a moron or a liar, possibly both.

  13. Ken,

    The analogy is that of a sane man choosing to live in an asylum for the benefit of the madmen who only beat and curse him every day.

    Leaving the asylum is the only sane choice because we are outnumbered by lunatics.

  14. John Galt

    I tend to think the economics of it are a bit of a toss-up. The politics are foolish, but politics always is. OTOH, I would probably advocate withdrawal from the ECHR – who really need to be trimmed back – their judicial activism is unwanted in the UK. People make the claim that it would make the UK a pariah or that it would give comfort to those who breach human rights. I think it would teach the ECHR that their actions have consequences – it would probably lead to a mass withdrawal, which would be unfortunate, but a logical result of their judicial arrogance.

  15. Liberal Yank said:

    What is wrong with a United States of Europe assuming a decent constitution?

    The eurocrats trying to build the USE have never asked the public of Europe if they want it. They know the answer they would get. The plan largely from day one was to do it in such small steps that we wouldn’t notice or have much to protest about.

    The USA is what it is because it has become that over time. The USE would be a cargo cult superpower – artificially created from the top down in the hope of acquiring the trappings of superpower status rather than having formed naturally and with the people going along with it.

    Politicians who we now know would crawl over the graves of war dead for the chance to throw around the weight and wealth of 500 million people are not to be trusted.

    And I don’t mind being British.

    Liberal Yank said:

    At least with Britain in you can attempt to get a better system to avoid a collapse. Since a yes vote to leave the EU would take time to implement this leaves time for the EU to enact positive changes. A no vote increases the likelihood of no changes, as well as a war.

    If a British exit would cause the EU to collapse then it wasn’t worth saving.

  16. “The USA is what it is because it has become that over time.”

    This is completely correct. Originally only the House of Representatives was voted for by the general public. It wasn’t until 1913 when the 17th amendment was ratified that Senators became more than political appointments. The President is still chosen by the Electoral College instead of a popular vote. The US Constitution was written by the elites with their interest in mind.

  17. The Meissen Bison

    Liberal Yank: I doubt that Russia likes the idea of Germany and France working together, especially if they are militarizing, either.

    Mikhail Gorbachev was persuaded to agree to the reunification of East and West Germany on the understanding that the whole would be subsumed into an ever more administratively but not militarily centralised European entity.

    The EU has not disappointed. In the former Yugoslavia as with Georgia, Crimea and Ukraine, the nationalist spirit has awakened no echo in the bloated Brussels bureaucracy for the good reason that for good or ill nationalism has been purged from western Europe and eastern Europe is still aslumber.

    With the stubborn Englishmen out of the way is there a third continental power to maintain a semblance of balance?

    Is there a need for one? Political stasis and economic decline are now built-in.

  18. How deep will the economic decline go before people get fed up with the current leaders in other countries?

    Nationalism is an easy sell when people can’t get jobs. I could throw out straw man what if scenarios but the simple fact is that it has happened throughout history. Why is something so common not likely to occur again without the vigilance of the righteous?

  19. The Meissen Bison

    Liberal Yank: How deep will the economic decline go before people get fed up with the current leaders in other countries?

    Goodness knows. The Greeks, for example, are wedded to the Euro which to a significant extent is the roadblock to economic recovery.

    Nationalism is an easier “sell” when a people can blame rather than embrace the externalities.

  20. Liberal Yank said:

    This is completely correct.

    I don’t get the point you are making. What I meant is the USA was formed as a country then grew to become a superpower. The EU is trying to become a superpower in order to form a country.

  21. The point that I am trying to make is that appointed leaders aren’t the end of the world. The US government started with most power in unelected bodies with the judicial, executive, and half of the legislative branches all appointed. Currently the executive and judicial are both appointed positions with the president having to be reappointed by a new electoral college every four years. The fact that the electoral college* has, for the most part, selected the same candidate as the popular vote doesn’t mean that we couldn’t have someone who wasn’t even on the ballot. When the EU is viewed as a step towards a pan-European federal government then it is obviously flawed but not quite as badly as many are claiming.

    If there is a yes vote on Brexit then the world won’t end. I expect a vote on Grexit within a year of the British yes vote.

    *Adams II, Hayes, Harrison, and Bush II all lost the popular vote. Only Adams II didn’t win the electoral college and was selected by the House of Representatives.

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