Another attempt on “Your papers please”

Government measures making people prove their nationality or face prosecution risk damaging community relations and are discriminatory, critics have warned.

The Conservatives want to give police and immigration officers the power to order people who have been arrested to state their nationality and require those believed to be foreign nationals to produce their nationality documents, such as a passport.

Failure to do so within 72 hours would become a criminal offence under the policing and crime bill currently going through parliament.

There’s people out there who have no papers to prove that they are British. Some portion of the country doesn’t have a passport. And can you lay hands on your birth certificate? Which doesn’t, in fact, identify you anyway?

Not going to work, is it?

62 thoughts on “Another attempt on “Your papers please””

  1. I hadn’t realised the police didn’t have this power already. I’ve been in the company of people who the police have asked for identification because they’re obviously foreign (the incident where the person concerned was the daughter of a high ranking diplomat was a hoot)
    Of course, with today’s police, one can understand why one wouldn’t want the police to have this power. In a spirit of all-important non-discrimination coupled with bloody-minded jobsworthness they’ll simply ask everybody

  2. “Not going to work” has often not stopped them trying.
    The attempt to stop forced marriages (invariably confined to one section of the population) through the immigration rules ended up preventing someone marrying a young Canadian, since the Home Secretary declined to use discretionary powers to avoid the silliness.

  3. The Meissen Bison

    Not going to work because there is ultimately no appropriate sanction for those contravening this proposed law.

    You can lock them up indefinitely but you can’t deport them.

    Doh!

  4. This is an issue that must be tackled.

    In a sane society we would not be in danger of demographic takeover and the matter would be relatively trivial. The modest number of foreign residents could be identified or not at the Bluebottles leisure without need for socialist commissar-type powers.

    No such powers should be allowed against the native UK population. Ever.

    Since we are now facing a future of being a despised minority in our nation( if we are not very careful) then the police should be able to ask for proof of granted British citizenship ( yes I know “subject” etc) or right of residence, At some point in the investigation (bollocks to 3 days–from a useless CPS that takes months to grind if not years). Only in the case of non UK natives. The question can be asked based on accent in the case of East Europeans and racial characteristics if non-European. It is not hard to tell who is a native Briton and who isn’t.

    All members of RoP and Sub-Saharan Africans here should lose their citizenship and voting rights. Metics is the term from ancient Athens I believe. No more would be allowed in and those here will lose the vote and all benefits above those for one woman and two kids. Vile? Racist? SSAs have the lowest intelligence and a very high rate of criminality from a culture of (male) idleness and low moral standards. While the RoP have a book telling them they are the master race and everyone else is scum who must be conquered. It won’t get them anywhere without the friendship of the left and a state-subsidised breeding program but it earns them the chance to be unable to afford large families or form self-serving political power blocks.

    All Hindus, Sikhs and Chinese etc already here will be confirmed as UK citizens. Mainly because, by and large, they are reasonably similar to the native UK pop. They are not overly criminal, don’t cut up little kids in witchcraft rituals , don’t groom little girls or sodomise little boys and don’t have a book telling them the are the master race –and what they should do about it. Future numbers of all migrants also need to be controlled.

    From now on ALL migrants, regardless of origin need to be metics. They can work and earn unmolested but will not get benefits or receive citizenship or voting rights until one hundred years have gone by. That way a family can be sure that if they are not crims or parasites then they can become citizens after 3 generations. Until that time they are here on the natives sufferance and a limited licence.

    That way we are as fair as possible to outsiders . And the left is unable to turn we natives into a 2nd class minority.

    If any of my ideas sound harsh–look up Dhimmi and see what will happen to your grand-kids if the left helps its allies to a victory.

  5. My old physics teacher lost his passport in France. Bellowing “I’m British!” got him past passport control with no questions asked.

  6. I always liked the story of the out-of-uniform Brit pinned down by British soldiers in WWII France proving his bona fides thus:

    “Any fuuhckng cuuhnt cahn see I’m a fuuhking Luund’ner.”

    I believe the technical term is shibboleth.

  7. “granted British citizenship ( yes I know ‘subject’ etc)”

    “British Citizen” has been the legal status since the British Nationality Act 1981 (before that, from 1947 it was “Citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies”).

    “British Subject” in the old common law sense has been replaced by other terms (eg, “Commonwealth Citizen” legally, “the Queen’s subjects” as regards allegiance, etc).

    So republicans and lefties (mainly) who moan “we should be citizens not subjects” are as in many other lefty things, out-dated.

  8. “They are not overly criminal, don’t cut up little kids in witchcraft rituals ,”

    Apart from the Jews, who perform genital mutilation on babies.

  9. Not getting into that debate as the last time it went to 200 comments.

    Whatever you think of circumcision it isn’t murder –whereas a kids organs floating down the Thames–minus the bits used in African witchcraft rituals–is.

  10. Most British adults have a driving licence (I know a couple who do not and they are regarded as slightly eccentric), so providing ID within 72 hours will rarely be a problem.
    The elephant-sized loophole is that the arrested person can go “home” to fetch his/her ID and never return to the police station.

  11. “Whatever you think of circumcision it isn’t murder …”

    That’s alright then. Carry on with the FGM aswell..

    After all, it isn’t murder.

  12. Annoymong– Not getting sidetracked.

    Ask Tim to open a thread about it and you can knock yourself out with comments. Like I said the last time it went to 200-odd and collapsed thro exhaustion of all sides.

    Maybe you have that much time to waste.

  13. @”Mr Ecks
    May 5, 2016 at 9:48 am

    This is an issue that must be tackled.”
    Yes but this is not the solution. The solution is to say that people who have lived here illegally cannot get British citizenship nor can their children.
    Also not giving people free housing would help and no citizenship for people who do not pay more than £x in taxes.
    We incentivize foreigners to come here illegally with the good prospect of citizenship and benefits and then are surprised it happens.

  14. Anon: Yes to say that if you come here illegally you will never be a citizen and will be deported regardless once caught is not a bad idea. That plus no benefits will prob halt the bulk of migration.

    But not state-subsidised breeding or power-block voting.

  15. @Mr Ecks
    “Anon: Yes to say that if you come here illegally you will never be a citizen and will be deported regardless once caught is not a bad idea. That plus no benefits will prob halt the bulk of migration. ”

    Thank you, by the way I know people – one a minister – who have come here illegally and then got citizenship because of living illegally.
    Imagine if you could steal jewels, keep them for 15 years and then sell them legally. Jewelers would need so much security it would be crazy.

  16. Mr Ecks,

    Agree with most of what you say. Additionally, anyone in political office advocating amnesties and suchlike for illegal immigrants should be stripped of office and barred from future office. And charities advocating similar preferential treatment for illegals should have charitable status removed.

  17. So Much For Subtlety

    I disagree with Ecks about one thing: most ethnic groups hate us but they hate us in a non-violent way. Each ethnic community has their own way of displaying their dislike of British people and their customs. Some of them are more confronting than others.

    In reality we need to undo all the immigration of the 20th century.

    They should not be asking for proof of nationality. They should be demanding proof of four British grandparents.

  18. The Inimitable Steve

    It could work well if it’s applied with common sense. You could imagine Singapore or Malaysia doing it without much difficulty.

    Foreigners really aren’t that hard to spot, unless you’ve blinded yourself with political correctness.

    Sadly, common sense is rare in our public sector.

  19. The Meissen Bison

    Mr Ecks: you will never be a citizen and will be deported regardless once caught is not a bad idea.

    The problem with this – and it was what I was trying to express in my own inept way earlier – is that deportation only works if the country of origin is known and for that there have to be papers of some kind.

    Where there are no papers, all you can do is lock people up (which is more punishment for the taxpayer) unless you want to drop them over the side of a ferry.

  20. So Much For Subtlety

    The Meissen Bison – “The problem with this – and it was what I was trying to express in my own inept way earlier – is that deportation only works if the country of origin is known and for that there have to be papers of some kind.”

    I am not sure about that. Israel pays Rwanda a lot of money. Any African caught in Israel is deported to Rwanda.

    I suggest we recognise Puntland. We deport anyone who raises the slightest suspicion there. If they can prove they are British they can come back.

  21. The Inimitable Steve

    TMB – Yarp.

    This is where common sense comes in.

    How hard is it to determine a country of origin?

    Not very. It’s really not all that difficult to spot a Bangladeshi, say. Just get a trained interpreter to talk to them for five minutes.

    If that doesn’t work, check their phone records.

    If that doesn’t work, modern DNA testing can locate to a high degree of precision where your ancestors came from.

    So then our only problem is getting their home country to accept them back.

    That’s easily solved by using our £11bn foreign aid budget as a repatriation budget.

    It’s not like we’re trying to put a man on Mars.

  22. The problem with this – and it was what I was trying to express in my own inept way earlier – is that deportation only works if the country of origin is known and for that there have to be papers of some kind.

    I’ve never understood the requirement that deportation has to be to the subject’s country of origin. Why do we care where they go, so long as it’s not here?

  23. In the colonies, I got my ID document at 16 which thereafter made opening a bank account, applying for a driver’s licence, buying a house, applying for a passport and voting a lot simpler without having to rustle up household bills and fellow professionals to vouch for my identity. I fail to understand whyBrits get the vapours at the thought of officially identifying themselves. My bearded bro-in-law successfully entered the UK on my unbearded sister’s passport. Did the chap at passport control have similar misgivings and not look too closely?

  24. “The Conservatives want to give police and immigration officers the power to order people who have been arrested to state their nationality and require those believed to be foreign nationals to produce their nationality documents, such as a passport.”

    Does this mean that up to now the police didn’t ask people they arrested who they were?

  25. Ljh–If you are trying the “Land of the Free” bit forget it. The arrogance of the American state at all levels epic and is such that everyone who works for it should be beaten up to knock some of the arrogance out of them. Piss on all ID cards and the rest and all those who support them.

    We don’t crawl to the fucking state for permission to exist nor do we exist by their fucking leave. My people have been here as long and done as much for this nation as shite like Camoron and his gang. And a lot less harm.

    As little time as I have for our dear imported friends with beards I don’t like coppers trying the “Papers Citizen” bit even with them. Yes–they would have to prove who they are eventually –but that is because of an emergency situation created in the West by the antics of the scum of the left and the states they have infiltrated. If that kind of state abuse could be avoided and still save the country I would advocate doing it that way. But it is too late now for that. But that kind of tyrannical contagion cannot be allowed to the state to use on we natives.

    As Steve says it is not hard to know who is British.

  26. I’ve never understood the requirement that deportation has to be to the subject’s country of origin. Why do we care where they go, so long as it’s not here?

    Other countries have a say about who they allow in…

  27. Ecksy, not land of the free in the tiniest bit. Most of the world gets by with identification and without a police state. You would rather a hundred postal voters land on the register from a studio flat in Tower Hamlets? Get benefits without contributing? Lack of official ID seems to be undermining democracy in the UK.

  28. @ukliberty
    “May 5, 2016 at 1:37 pm

    I’ve never understood the requirement that deportation has to be to the subject’s country of origin. Why do we care where they go, so long as it’s not here?

    Other countries have a say about who they allow in…

    We could probably pay a cheaper country to lock people up until someone says “I come from x and send me there”.
    Of course illegals being locked up for 20 years would have a great deterrent effect.

  29. Ljh–scrap postal voting anyway and get rid of state benefits on a steady schedule. Problem solved.

    As for the rest of the world –ID is the basis of tyranny. The state’s goons can ID themselves to us –not the other way around.

    In the case of our dear imports then that will not be so for a while. Until the problem is under control. This is forced on us by the scum of the left–including so-called “conservatives”, who have created this mess.

  30. The problem with identity documents is the tendency of those checking them to verify the document, rather than the document holder. ” My bearded bro-in-law successfully entered the UK on my unbearded sister’s passport.” shows what happens. No doubt the passport was genuine & valid. And that’s mostly what border control are interested in. If you don’t look like your passport photo it must be because you’re not trying hard enough.

  31. Ecksy: the world has moved on from when everyone in the village knew everyone else. A simple ID document does away with the current charade of opening a UK bank account, acquiring a UK driving licence, applying for a passport, without handing undue power to the sate. The reality is there are plenty of health and benefits tourists, corrupt voters’ rolls and a system just begging to be manipulated. The real threat is the already enlarged state, without honest elections, checks on entitlements, discouragement of the chancers, criminals and subverters, it will continue to grow like the plant in Little Shop of Horrors.

  32. The Meissen Bison

    bloke in spain: the tendency of those checking them to verify the document, rather than the document holder.

    And sometimes not even that. I once reached the Eurostar immigration queue in London when I realised my passport was out of date so I let a party of 20 Japanese school children go in front of me and was just waved through by holding up my passport. The guy at the Gare du Nord rumbled me on the way back but gave me no grief.

    On the country of origin thing, I recognise that the UK might make arrangements to ship illegals to a shanty in the Central African Republic but that’s a radically different UK from the one we have today.

    Before that happens, the likes of Murphy will have been locked up for perversity and incitement to envy while Cameron will have been sent to the stocks.

  33. Ljh–The system is rotten and corrupt–agreed. Then put your boots to the system and the scum that run it not impose new tyranny to compensate. Just another version of –“well we have imported all these hostile and ever-increasing people so we have to have a police state to stop the pot boiling over”.

    Nothing personal but piss off.

    If there was no increase in power for the state in ID cards and the rest the twats would’nt want them.

  34. Bloke no Longer in Austria

    My objection to ID Cards is principle rather than practicality. I need a driving licence because a car is a potentially dangerous weapon and I need to prove that I can control one. I do not need a licence to walk down the street. As long as I pay my taxes and don’t knock down old ladies, the State has no right to keep track of my movements or demand to know who I am. I however have the right to demand of the State and its officials that they are genuine and involved in legal activities.

    Anecdote for BiS:
    A few years ago I was behind an Asian chap at Passport Control in Heathrow (T2). The controller noticed that the corner of his (UK) passport was damaged and started sticking her fingernalls into the loose paper.
    “Why is your passport damaged ?”
    He replied in a wonderfully broad Lancastrian accent “Because passport controllers keep on picking at it!”
    She let him through and I could hear him muttering ahead of me on the other side “…every fucking time…”

  35. Not going to work is a feature not a bug.

    “Oh dear, this doesn’t work. Therefore we must have ID cards for all because of terrorism/thinkofthechildren/etc/etc.”

  36. Other countries have a say about who they allow in…

    But by the time they’ve arrived in Other Country they are no longer our problem…

    On the country of origin thing, I recognise that the UK might make arrangements to ship illegals to a shanty in the Central African Republic but that’s a radically different UK from the one we have today.

    I’m not suggesting all deportations should go to the most miserable shithole we can find. I don’t care if they land in Monte Carlo.

    If a deportation has been ordered, yet it can’t be carried out because the subject has deliberately destroyed his passport and won’t say where he’s from, then why can’t we just pick somewhere?

  37. If I were to turn up at the Post Office asking for an ID card, how would I prove that I am Mr. Pants? Presumably, my name and address could only be verified using existing government approved ID. That being the case, surely I already have sufficient ID and the state can indeed bugger off!

  38. I’m trying to rent a flat and failing as I can’t prove that I’m British (or prove my income as the form assumes you only have one job and don’t freelance or do contact work).

  39. jgh–The trappings of tyranny. Landlords and others should not have to do the states dirty work for them–esp as that dirty work is needed cos the state can’t keep its own borders efficiently–or indeed at all.

  40. But by the time they’ve arrived in Other Country they are no longer our problem…

    So Other Country won’t cause a problem, it will just accept all our deportees will it?

  41. “If I were to turn up at the Post Office asking for an ID card, how would I prove that I am Mr. Pants? “Is why conniving bastards like me regard the introduction of ID cards as Fat City. Oh boy, the opportunity to get your hands on a piece of gold plated moody documentation as millions without hard ID are provided with ID cards on a just ask basis on the flimsiest verification.

  42. My family has been in Canada for over 350 years. However just because I had the supreme luck of rocketing out of my Canadian mother and landing in a Canadian hospital, how exactly does that justify my claiming superior rights to those who were born elsewhere, qualified for Canadian residence, completed naturalization requirements, wrote and passed a test and swore allegiance to Canada. Logic and justice would say that THEY have a more solid claim to superior rights than me.

    Now simply apply the same fact situation to your British citizenship and give me your logical arguments for your claim to superior rights.

  43. Imagine if you could steal jewels, keep them for 15 years and then sell them legally.

    Is there no statute of limitations on theft in the UK? In the US if you outrun the cops for long enough you can’t be charged for the crime. Most likely you will get nabbed on tax evasion, but, to be fair, at that point it is income should have had taxes paid.

    The US doesn’t have a national ID card. The closest thing we have is Social Security cards which only contain a name and number. In theory someone could live their whole life without getting a Social Security card and just work around the tax structure.

  44. Lesperance – you sound a bit of a cunt, if you don’t mind my saying, so I’m quite prepared to accept that there are ‘new Canadians’ who are worth more than you.

    But you don’t get to decide that for Bill Canuck down the road.

    As others have said, a few years back this would all have seemed insane. We just need to remember that and ignore cunts like, well, you.

    So fuck off, there’s a good chap.

  45. I have always considered it one of the defining characteristics of my fellow countrymen that to have to prove identity is bad form. In fact the correct response to such a request is BUGGER OFF!

  46. So Much For Subtlety

    DavidSLesperance – “Now simply apply the same fact situation to your British citizenship and give me your logical arguments for your claim to superior rights.”

    Sprinkling fairy dust all over a pumpkin doesn’t make it turn into a carriage. In the same way some pointless rite involving the invocation of meaningless words is no substitute for ties of blood, history and culture.

    You are not Canadian simply because of an accident of your birth. You are Canadian because Diefenbaker should mean something to you that cannot be taught, cannot be imitated and which is not conferred by a some witch doctoring we call a citizenship process.

  47. So Much For Subtlety

    ukliberty – “So Other Country won’t cause a problem, it will just accept all our deportees will it?”

    Rwanda accepts Israel’s deportees. It is amazing what a little cash can do. I suggest we make Sierra Leone an offer.

    ukliberty – “Other countries have a say about who they allow in…”

    Yeah. Everyone but us. Africa is for Africans. Asia is for Asians. But the White countries must be for everyone and we are not allowed to object to it.

  48. So Much For Subtlety

    The Meissen Bison – “On the country of origin thing, I recognise that the UK might make arrangements to ship illegals to a shanty in the Central African Republic but that’s a radically different UK from the one we have today.”

    The Britain we have today does nothing while thousands of girls are gang raped because the British are afraid of being called racist.

    This is something you want to preserve?

    It is impossible to have a vibrant, diverse and especially Muslim population while also having civil liberties. Free societies go with White populations. Not low-IQ Third World peasantry. We have chosen to be vibrant. That means the Britain you remember is dead. The only question that remains is whether we are going to be killed as well, a la the Armenians, or whether something of Britain will survive. Choose carefully.

  49. SMFS,

    The Britain we have today does nothing while thousands of girls are gang raped because the British are afraid of being called racist.

    I fully understand the MSM not reporting these thousands of gang rapes. What I did not expect is that the cover-up extended here …

    unless …

    RUN, THE MEDIA IS HERE!!!

  50. ISTM that Britons have a choice.

    They can have a government with the power to expel illegal immigrants, which requires the power to distinguish illegal immigrants from British citizens and legally resident aliens.

    Or they can have their country demographically occupied by illegal immigrants, and become the slaves of the invaders.

    Which is it to be?

  51. a bit odd that identifying tattoos are not mentioned.
    I expect you could remove them but this would show and be a crime.

  52. @Lesperance

    I have you at a disadvantage, because, while you brag openly about what you do, I don’t.
    You know nothing about me, or what I’ve done.
    As it happens, I’ve done a lot more interesting and important stuff than you have – but I am not going to set up a website with my name on it to tell you all about it, because I’m not a cunt.
    We can see you. We can see you’re a cunt.

    😉

  53. The Meissen Bison

    SMFS: This is something you want to preserve?

    Not a bit of it. In fact I’d willingly emigrate to that other UK.

    My premise is that there are things that have become unthinkable for the UK. The robust measures on deportation that have been advocated here are in that category and are simply pie in the sky.

  54. Dear Interesting: Always fascinating to hear excuses for anon posting. I never claimed to be ‘interesting’, just post what I do and my opinions. Up to others to determine if worthwhile or interesting. Your description of yourself reminds me of when people tell me they are ‘funny’. Tell me a joke and I will tell you whether you are funny. IMHO, found those who said they were interesting, funny or honest, generally weren’t.

    SMFS: I was making the obvious point, that my fellow native-born Canadians have not chosen Canada (they arrived through randomness of birth); been chosen BY Canada as worthy of residence; completed naturalisation requirements; passed a language and Canadian knowledge test; or stood up to swear allegiance to Canada. If anyone was “sprinkled with fairy dust” it was myself and my fellow Canadians.

    As for ties of “blood, history and culture”, I am related by blood to a minuscule fraction of my fellow-native born Canadians. Many native-born Canadians cannot pass the Citizenship test that all naturalised Citizens MUST pass (http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2015/06/29/canada-citizenship-test_n_7691146.html) and as a country which is really a collection of multiple cultures with local variations across multiple time zones, there is no universal ‘culture’.

    As for the Def, the few native-born Canadians my age who know anything about him at all, only know that he killed the Avro Arrow project (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Arrow). And that’s because Dan Ackroyd starred in the movie. Personally, I know a bit more about him, as I went to the University of Saskatchewan for law school and since I was dating a girl who worked there, got to take a picture sitting in the mock-up of his PM office http://www.thestarphoenix.com/news/cms/binary/11335803.jpg?size=640×420.

    So in short, I view the whole previous discussion regarding foreign-born citizens of the UK, as just xenophobia of those native born who without logical or reasonable basis feel that they are superior to naturalised citizens.

  55. DSLeprosy–This is because you are a moron. Choosing a much better place than the shithole you come from-with benefits of course–trying to learn the language a bit and memorising and spewing back some bullshit means Sweet FA outside the engine of fantasy you call a brain.

    Even then most of those being let into the UK don’t meet those pathetic criteria. By miles.

    I am a loyal Briton. Not to the scum of the state –which has betrayed me and mine– but to the Britain I knew as a child and a youth. It was something worthwhile then even tho’ it was already under attack by the scum of the left and the uselessness of what we may now call cucks.

    From your account you seem to be a youngish creep who cares fuck all about where he came from and thinks he will spend the balance of his so-called life in some multi-culti paradise.

    Guess again pal–the RoP doesn’t do or even give a shit for multi-culti. And the left don’t care what culti it is so long as it drags down Western Civilisation and your nice life with it.

  56. Dear Mr. Ecks: Your words and the fact that you will not put your real name to them volumes to me. However, as in any debate (on-line or other), I will leave others to judge our respective positions.

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