Gee, ya think?

One man was killed and three others wounded by a man wielding a knife east of Munich and police are investigating a possible Islamist connection.

That’s the BBC. This is the next report on the same incident:

Man ‘shouted “Allahu Akbar” as he knifed Munich rail passengers’

Maybe the BBC is right though. Could just be some random Islamic nutter rather than an Islamist nutter.

62 thoughts on “Gee, ya think?”

  1. The BBC reported in the same article in which they mentioned the “Ali Akbar” shout that “the attacker’s motive is unclear”.

  2. Meanwhile, from a BBC Radio 4 Sunday tweet (I cannot copy a link on my mobile):

    “should Muslim women be allowed to travel more than 48 miles from home without a chaperone? @IbrahimMogra @ShuruqNaguib discuss”

  3. What, because we didn’t have our own actually-not-a-terrorist nutter do precisely that in Walthamstow (or was it Leytonstone) a few months ago?

  4. I presume that had the gentleman shouted “heil Hitler” the BBC would have had similar difficulty working out his likely motivation.

  5. So Much For Subtlety

    For some reason the BBC, and our own Rusty, think that Trump is the problem. Not our vibrant and diverse faith communities that are doing so much to enrich the lives of the girls of Rotherham and a dozen other working class towns.

    Delightful.

  6. JuliaM>

    That particular ‘terorrist’ subscribes to the belief system that what’s in his head is real, including the voices. That’s why he’s being held in a secure mental health unit, not a police cell.

  7. You’re all racists – Ironman says so. These poor people should be allowed to stab others – it’s their culture.

    Dave – a Google search for Muhiddin Mire ‘ “secure mental health unit” ‘ throws up nothing.

    Mire was earlier sectioned so that they could check whether he was a nutter, but this often happens with these cases so as to preclude a later defence, but I can see nothing which says he’s not now on remand, as per normal, the question of those mental health issues having been dealt with.

    The fact that the CPS is lobbing extra charges at him now suggests to me that they think he was sane – or as sane as these people ever are, believing that a sky fairy doesn’t want them to eat sausages or see a lady’s arms (sorry Ironman, I couldn’t help myself).

    Not saying that he isn’t still sectioned, but have you got a link?

    By the way, under no conceivable circumstances would he be ‘held in a police cell’ anyway – that’s just your idiocy, I’m afraid.

  8. So Much For Subtlety

    Wikipedia claims that his motive is not yet known.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Leytonstone_tube_station_attack

    Muhaydin Mire, 29, of Leytonstone, was named as the suspect.[1] He appeared at the Old Bailey on 7 December and was charged with attempted murder of the 56-year-old man who was seriously injured. Mire was sectioned under the Mental Health Act for examination to determine his state of mind.[1]

    According to his brother, Mire had a history of mental illness, having spent three months in hospital due to paranoia, and he had relapsed in August 2015. The brother said that Mire would telephone him with odd, delusional messages, but none of them had a political theme.[9]

    Mire’s family sought urgent medical help trying to get him sectioned, around a month before the attack. This was rejected by authorities, who found him to be of no risk to himself or others. As a final resort, Mire’s brother “decided to move him out the country [to see his mother]…I decided to book a ticket for him on this Sunday. He was okay as far as I know. He wanted to go”.[9]

    So he has been sectioned in order to determine if he is nuts.

  9. Inty>

    “The fact that the CPS is lobbing extra charges at him now suggests to me that they think he was sane”

    Or that they want to make sure that one way or another they get him – insanity cases are always tricky to prosecute.

    “By the way, under no conceivable circumstances would he be ‘held in a police cell’ anyway – that’s just your idiocy, I’m afraid.”

    I have no idea what you think you mean there, but anyone who has not been tried and convicted is held in police custody. In practice, the police actually use cells in prisons for the job, rather than holding people in police stations for weeks, but the whole setup is different (because the occupants haven’t yet been convicted of anything). I feel the reference to ‘police cells’ is justified.

  10. So the answer is no, you haven’t got a link and you don’t know whether he’s currently sectioned? I repeat, I’m not saying he’s not a loon, I just don’t know. The onus is on you to prove yourself correct.

    ‘Insanity cases are always tricky to prosecute’? No, they’re not. Actually, a lot easier to deal with, depending on the evidence.

    ‘I have no idea what you think you mean there’. The reference to police cells – particularly given your usual pendantry – is laughable. They are not in police cells, they are in the custody of HM Prison Service in cells operated by the same.

  11. The Meissen Bison

    Alex: I doubt it. In fact I’m part of a grassroots movement to restore capital punishment in Borsetshire.

    The Archers. More miserable than real life.

  12. Inty>

    SMFS already provided a link.

    As for police cells, let’s not argue semantics: I think we both agree that we’re talking about people held in police custody before conviction.

  13. Oh, and this:

    “‘Insanity cases are always tricky to prosecute’? No, they’re not. Actually, a lot easier to deal with, depending on the evidence.”

    I have no idea where you’ve got that notion. Ask any prosecutor and they’ll tell you a potential insanity defence is a nightmare for them, because instead of the usual guilty/not-guilty dichotomy you often get confusion.

  14. It’ll no doubt all turn out to be an MI5, CIA, Mossad, Spaghetti Monster, False-flag operation. They will have conspired to convince some lovely, innocent, young man – who wouldn’t hurt a fly – to embrace a fake version of the religion of Peace (one that teaches to kill your enemies today instead of waiting a few years till you’ve got more power and just telling them what to do on pain of death). Then they’ll have given him a knife, dosed him with a combination of Derren Brown mind-control and MKUltra conditioning, before setting him loose. They will then have CGI’d all the CCTV to make him shout Allah Akhbar!

    All makes perfect sense.

  15. Davey

    ‘SMFS already provided a link.’

    A wikipedia entry, referring to 2015 media reports. I was hoping you had something more current, given your certainty?

    ‘I have no idea where you’ve got that notion. Ask any prosecutor and they’ll tell you a potential insanity defence is a nightmare for them, because instead of the usual guilty/not-guilty dichotomy you often get confusion.’

    There’s no confusion – you establish lunacy by means of adducing expert evidence.
    If no lunacy – trial.
    If lunacy – Broadmoor.

    But is he still sectioned as you said he was? Wikipedia refs to old newspapers won’t do, I’m afraid.

  16. White supremacist shoots dead worshippers in a black church in Carolina; should we ban travel for all white Christians?

    German government gasses 6 million Jews; should we ban all travel for Germans?

  17. So Much For Subtlety

    Ironman – “You are all racists; Ironman does say so.”

    Does Ironman also still say that it is better to have untold rapes and murders than have some [email protected] on the internet call you a racist?

    Ironman – “White supremacist shoots dead worshippers in a black church in Carolina; should we ban travel for all white Christians?”

    Should members of the KKK be allowed to become policemen? Serious question Rusty. Because members of the BNP can’t in Britain. Nor teachers. Is that discrimination against White people?

    “German government gasses 6 million Jews; should we ban all travel for Germans?”

    Well we did. Actually. For some time. They are still paying for it one way or the other.

    America did ban all Communists by the way. There is a question on the visa application. If you have ever been a member of a Communist Party they can and do ban you from travel to the US.

  18. Why can’t he be both Islamist and a nutter? In the absence of radical Islam, the nutter might be content to spew vitriol at Speakers’ Corner or post comments on blogs. Feed him the terrorist narrative and he becomes possessed by the idea (he is a nutter after all). Fortunately, his nuttiness means he’s not bright enough to plan a greater atrocity.

  19. Tangentially related, Trump says he could allow Sadiq Khan to visit the US, even though he’s a Muslim.

  20. I think that believing that any god would choose an evil, thieving, murdering, slave owning, slave trading pedophile as his (or her) special messenger is the very definition of being a nutter.

  21. @Ironbollocks

    ‘You are all racists; Ironman does say so.
    Ironman
    May 10, 2016 at 10:55 am
    White supremacist shoots dead worshippers in a black church in Carolina; should we ban travel for all white Christians?
    German government gasses 6 million Jews; should we ban all travel for Germans?’

    Well, we kind of did try to ban all travel for Germans during that gassing period, using Spitfires and battleships mostly.

    If you could find any link in anything I have said here or anywhere else which even remotely suggests ‘banning all travel’ for muslims because some cunt stabs some people on the Tube then I might concede that you had some sort of point.

    But since I’ve never remotely said anything like that, not here or anywhere else, you won’t be able to find it, and thus you don’t have a point.

    You’re just a lying, gobby cunt (though I suppose a Scousafrican is almost genetically determined to be such).

    (I will never concede that any criticism of islamism is racist, mind you, since islam is not a religion. As I have pointed out many times, you thick twat, there are white, black, yellow, beige and, who knows, maybe even blue muslims. Extremist islamism is just a very unpleasant belief system, based on an old book, not a race.)

  22. We also – once upon a time – made life tough for you nesty racist South Efricans. Oh, if only…

    🙂

  23. Is that right? Ironman is South African–a white South African?

    Still living in South Africa presumably?

    Because if not –if he rejects the very multi-culti, whites-rule-no-more paradise that he seems to want for the rest of us–that must surely say something about his real “values” vs wicked white Western civilisation.

  24. Well stabbings are carried out by all sorts so that can’t be laid at the door of muslims only.

    Men walking about wearing pyjamas on the street, and women wearing fvcking tents in public however….

    Note, there is a touch of irony intended.

  25. Bloke in Germany

    I just love the conclusions people jump to. It turns out the guy isn’t islamic or islamist, but just a nutter. History of psychiatric problems and drug abuse.

  26. “I just love the conclusions people jump to. It turns out the guy isn’t islamic or islamist, but just a nutter. History of psychiatric problems and drug abuse.”

    OK, an unknown someone shouts ‘Allahu Akbar’ and stabs some random passers by. I then hold a gun to your head and say ‘Tell me what you think was the motivation for this attack, and if you’re right I’ll let you live. If you’re wrong or say nothing I’ll shoot you.’

    What are you going to say?

  27. I just love the conclusions people jump to. It turns out the guy isn’t islamic or islamist, but just a nutter. History of psychiatric problems and drug abuse.

    So just a random nutter yelling “Ali Ali Ackbar” (as you do) whilst he was stabbing people. OK, thanks for that – that’s much clearer.

  28. “I just love the conclusions people jump to. It turns out the guy isn’t islamic or islamist”

    What deluded fools we were, to assume that if someone shouts “alahu Akbar” and stabs citizens, after many hundreds of previous identical attacks by Islamists, then he is an Islamist.

    We need conditioning to see the nuance.

  29. An isolated incident I am sure, nothing in common with any other crime, the motive remains uncertain, no need for the public to be concerned, yadda yadda

  30. Where is the link Biggie that proclaims the bloke as non RoP?

    What if he is a recent inner-directed convert ?

    Oh–he’s a nutter you say?

    And the other reasons are?

  31. “Notes on an Islamist background do not have the investigators so far”

    Ah Bing!

    “The attack recalled the attack on a federal police at the train station in Hannover in February this year. A 15-year-old German Moroccan had rammed a knife in the throat after returning from Turkey the official four weeks. The protection of the Constitution had knowledge about possible jihadist intentions of the girl(???!!!) apparently for a long time.”

    Biggie: even your adopted countrymen aren’t buying the “lone nutter” meme.

  32. BiG – the slight issue with your position is that we know that the police and media in Germany are doing anything they can to play down Islamic terrorism and crime in Germany, be it by claiming Cologne was a peaceful New Years Eve, to ordering the active censorship of police reports, to getting Facebook on board, to arresting people for tweets.

    We also know that you can spent twenty years in a madrassa reciting the koran, follow all the various bonkers strictures of this belief system, and eventually kill yourself and others while shouting that you are doing it for islam, and our ‘leaders’ will still insist that it has nothing to do with islam.

    The fact that they say this guy wasn’t doing it for islam is mildly unsurprising.

    You know as well as we do that the system in Germany is being corrupted, and you must worry as much as we do about the second order effects. No-one (certainly not I) wants vigilantism or wholesale expulsion of any groups, but neither do we want lies and obfuscation, not least because the latter will probably eventually lead to the former.

    According to AP/AFP, a woman at the station reported hearing the words ‘Infidel, you must die!’ He (the stabber) may also have been ‘confused’ but in the circumstances I don’t think that I will take the reaction from the authorities over the reports of eyewitnesses; though I accept that anyone can shout Allahu akhbar’, I think I’ll assume it was an islamist attack until I get a bit more than one uncertain press report.

    If your general point is that one shouldn’t extrapolate beyond the particular case, and react in any massive way, then I agree.

    But then, it’s possible to have an entirely rational discussion with you, because you’re not Ironman flinging shit around like a retarded chimp.

  33. ” of course you would maximise your chances and say it was an islamic nutter rather than a vanilla nutter, because in 99 cases out of 100, it would be.”

    So being right 99 times out of 100 is hardly ‘jumping to conclusions’ then, is it?

  34. Even if the nutter is 100% WASP going back to Martin Luther he was given the style by others also playing the game.

    Or should we believe that he got the idea from reading the Encyclopaedia Britannica?

    “A for Amok” no doubt.

  35. Got to love the BBC report.

    They mention what the bloke was shouting (or at least say ‘witnesses said’) and follow that with a German Interior Ministry statement that they ‘have no evidence of an Islamist motive’.

    So one assumes that in Germany random nutters routinely shout ‘Allahu Akbar’ before stabbing people.

    Or one might conclude that regardless of the ethnicity of the assailant if he’s shouting about Allah then maybe, just maybe, he’s got some sort of Islamic motive in mind, even if his mind is somewhat unhinged.

    But as we all know Islam is an ethnicity, not a religion, right?

  36. Bloke in Germany in the Free State of Bavaria

    @Fecks,

    I think this illustrates the difficulty with making any kind of a conclusion within hours of the event. In the case of hundreds of people being gunned down in Paris – I would take a lot of convincing that there was anything other than an islamist motivation. For one person with a knife – and a known psycho case and drug abuser – the non-islamist narrative is quite plausible. Shouting “allah akbar” (if indeed the witness is correct and not simply hearing what they expected to hear) could be simply parroting. If the guy had been chanting “Jesus saves” while stabbing, you wouldn’t blame Christianity either – unless you had some evidence that he was associated with Christian extremists.

    The fact is, I could be wrong and he is an islamist nutter. And if I am I’ll admit it. You seem incapable of admitting you are wrong, given the preponderance of the evidence (which of course is still far from complete) tends to indicate you are wrong. And that reflects on you.

  37. ” If the guy had been chanting “Jesus saves” while stabbing, you wouldn’t blame Christianity either – ”

    Christanity–ie the words and recorded deeds of Christ –don’t advocate stabbing anybody . Somewhat different to the recorded utterances of Mr M. And yes I don’t know that he actually advocates “stabbing” as a tactic but he certainly ordains and orders (via his version of a Deity) that others be conquered and or killed. So stabbing ain’t being ruled out.

    “You seem incapable of admitting you are wrong, given the preponderance of the evidence (which of course is still far from complete) tends to indicate you are wrong. And that reflects on you.”

    I don’t care if he is a white non-Islamic nutter. He got the idea and the style from those RoP who have blazed the trail. If none where in Germany he might have shouted something else as he stabbed but for all we know he may not have been doing any stabbing at all.

    You will admit you are wrong –if you are– when the full facts emerge but I have to admit my “wrongness” now? On a provisional basis perhaps? Its a nice system if you can make it work Biggie.

  38. ”If the guy had been chanting “Jesus saves” while stabbing, you wouldn’t blame Christianity either – ”

    If Christians were known for stabbing people in repeat attacks in multiple locations then you might just blame Christianity too.

  39. I’m pretty sure Christians are still being blamed for the Crusades and this leads me not to be able to imagine there being much of a rush to exonerate Christianity in the event that a person evokes Christ while murdering people on a train platform.

    It just doesn’t really happen very much (perhaps BiG will prove me wrong and show us many examples of Christians doing just that, and then long lines of government figures queueing up to exonerate Christianity? I will not hold my breath.)

    We all know the score here, the jig is up – very well up, too. No-one thinks this guy is a Sikh/convert, or a Hindu, do they?

    What I genuinely cannot understand is the apologists for islamism, or those who try to shut down discussion of it. Cui bono, in the end? Not my wife or daughters, that’s for sure.

  40. Seems to have been a somewhat suggestible nutter.

    What can have been the suggestion?
    Suffer the little children…
    or
    Strike at their necks

    Your move, biggsie

  41. Bloke in Germany in the Free State of Bavaria

    Some psychos, especially schizos, have an established increased tendency to commit random acts of violence – against themselves and others. Parroting the current meme while doing so tells us nothing more than this is the current meme.

    Sure, to its credit Christianity has given up its violent persecution of non-Christians in the last couple of hundred years, and in most places has largely given up discriminating against non-Christians. But this is like praising someone for no longer beating their wife, and Christianity is some 600 years ahead of Islam, so we should expect it to be a little more civilised.

  42. Again Biggie–nowhere does Jesus call for anyone to be stabbed –quite the reverse. Yes his Church was run as a political organisation for most of its time–in line with the sinful nature of Man (if you believe that) and is still being run as same by the present leftist prick in the Vatican. And the sinners running it have been involved in violence big time in ages past. But no one other than a brazen liar can say that was ever the intention of its founder.

    No one other than a brazen liar could also deny that the fun-filled career of Dear Mr M was anything other than a testament to the love of violence and the brutality of imposing all too human dictat on others . Or that his manual is anything other than an advocacy of the same. No need for any perversion of the source material and inspiration because the 14 centuries of Islamic violence and depredation on humanity are laid out in black and white.

    So don’t come it with how the two are equivalent

    But

  43. “But” nothing–Tim will you for the love of scandium futures find a way to get the preview panel back?

  44. “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.”

    But not to stab anyone with, obviously. It’s those warmongering Muslims who forced the Crusaders to sack Jerusalem (and the Mongols to sack Baghdad, and…)

    The reality is that religions adapt to what society wants from them: when the Roman Empire became Christian, Christianity developed the (highly flexible) concept of a just war to suit its military needs. When the Catholic Church found its followers wanted a female figure to worship, it developed Marian doctrine unmentioned in the Bible…

    As with Christianity, so with Islam. During the Islamic Golden Age, sects flourished which favoured tolerance and scientific progress: after the destruction of the House of Wisdom, Islam saw a need for social and military discipline, and the religion grew darker.

  45. Your usual pack of lying shite SJW.

    The line from Christ is clearly metaphoric. When Peter pulled a sword in the Garden of Gethsemane it was Christ who put a stop to it. So don’t you come it either.

    The RoP was charged up with death from the start. It conquered vast areas of previously Christian territory from the start and persecuted pilgrims–hence the Crusades.

    I already said that sinful men perverted Christ’s doctrines to promote worldly power.But the ideas of Christ –unlike the RoP and your own socialist poison– were not full of hate to begin with. It took a lot more art and sophistry to pervert them than the poison crap of the “The Two Ms”.

  46. Yes, obviously when your guy says it he’s speaking metaphorically.

    But it doesn’t matter what Jesus or Mohammed meant, it only matters what their religionist followers are inspired to do.

  47. It very much matters. “Turn the other cheek” takes some perverting to become a destructive creed. “Kill the infidel, take his lands and his women” doesn’t need much interpretation at all. It is a hateful and destructive creed right from the off.

    If your claim is that” people spoil everything” well there you will get little argument. But some things were already a pile of shit before the interpreting and spoiling began.

    Socialism being a classic case in point. It is evil seized on and made yet worse by the ultimate scum of the Earth.

  48. My claim is that if you get killed by a Scotsman it makes little difference to you whether some mad blog commentator considers him to be a true Scotsman or not.

    The most deadly religious war ever, by far, was the Taiping Rebellion. Which was Christian.

  49. Getting sick of saying the same thing over and over.

    The ideas put forward by Christ have indeed been turned inside out by assorted nutters and scumbags. In the case of the Taiping by a Chinese nutter who had a very vague idea of what Christ actually said combined his own fuckwit take on it.

    In the case of the two Ms they were nutters and scumbags to begin with and it took very little work to transpose their hatred off the page and into action.

    The motivation of the killer makes no difference to the dead. But the living can still discern your deceitful attempts to claim that there is no moral difference between the legacy of Christ and the two you stand with. If you kill except in self defence, if you kill to steal and impose your will on others you are not following the words of Jesus and fuck your “no true Scotsman” bollocks. Because Jesus fucking tells you NOT to do so. While your duo of charm school graduates peddle exactly the opposite.

  50. Hong Xiuquan and his God Worshipping Society were as Christian as the Peoples Temple and the Branch Davidians. Christianity was simply the vehicle through which the respective leaders could play out their megalomaniac desires.

    Islam is very much a heterodox Christian / Judaic cult, i.e. Mohammed cherry picked the bits that suited him from these two religions and embellished them with “revelations” from Allah, but it was all about Mohammed’s power and justification for his actions, e.g. “It’s alright, boys, Allah says you can rape your female captives.”

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