On the subject of Mr. Zimmerman’s gun

Two of America’s leading auctioneers of guns said they refused on ethical grounds to handle the sale of the 9 mm pistol that George Zimmerman used to kill unarmed black teenager Trayvon Martin.

The firearm is so toxic that another auctioneer, the man who sold the revolver used to kill John F. Kennedy’s assassin, said he would want no part of it had he been approached by Zimmerman.

Mr. Zimmerman is entirely free to sell his personal property as he wishes. No one at all has to aid him by providing their commercial services in doing so.

You know, like you shouldn’t have to bake a gay wedding cake if you don’t wish to.

74 thoughts on “On the subject of Mr. Zimmerman’s gun”

  1. “…the man who sold the revolver used to kill John F. Kennedy’s assassin..”

    So it’s ok to thwart due process, but not to defend yourself against a violent youth?

  2. How different is the US. In an analogous situation, the UK uniformed thugs would have “recovered”* the item & that’s the last he would have seen of it.

    *”Recovered” as in – nothing actually belongs to you except with their consent.

  3. So Much For Subtlety

    And I am free to call them gutless wonders. Zimmerman used his weapon entirely legally in self-defence. Making the world that much better by removing a thug from it.

    His gun should be in a museum.

  4. Zimmerman used his weapon entirely legally…

    In the sense that it’s legal in Florida to follow an unarmed man going about his lawful business and shoot him dead, so long as the person you’ve killed is the only other witness to exactly what happened.

    Making the world that much better by removing a thug from it.

    Zimmerman has a history of thuggery, before and after he killed Martin. Martin did not.

  5. So Much For Subtlety

    Social Justice Warrior – “In the sense that it’s legal in Florida to follow an unarmed man going about his lawful business and shoot him dead, so long as the person you’ve killed is the only other witness to exactly what happened.”

    No, in the sense that it is legal to follow an unarmed man about his lawful business and when he attacks you and tries to pound your head into the concrete, you may shoot him dead in self- defence as long as you have defensive wounds to the head and face.

    There is no sane jurisdiction in the world that would have convicted Zimmerman. Probably not even the UK.

    “Zimmerman has a history of thuggery, before and after he killed Martin. Martin did not.”

    And the post-truth historical revisionism continues. George Zimmerman did not have a history of thuggery. He had one incident of underage drinking that involved a confrontation with an undercover officer. The charges were dropped.

    Martin was as yet too young but was showing ample signs of thuggery:

    While a student at Dr. Michael M. Krop High School, Martin had behavioral issues. At the time of the shooting, he was serving a ten-day suspension for having a marijuana pipe and an empty bag containing marijuana residue. He had been suspended twice before, for tardiness and truancy and marking up a door with graffiti. The suspension for graffiti was in October 2011, when Martin was observed by a school police officer on a security camera “hiding and being suspicious” in a restricted area of the school. According to the officer, he later observed Martin marking up a door with “W.T.F.” When his backpack was searched the next day by a Miami-Dade School Police officer, looking for the graffiti marker, the officer found a dozen pieces of women’s jewelry, a watch and a screwdriver that was described by the school police officer as a burglary tool. The jewelry found in his backpack included silver wedding bands and earrings with diamonds. When Martin was asked by the officer if the jewelry belonged to his family or a girlfriend, he said a friend had given it to him. When asked for the name of the friend, Martin declined to provide it. The school police impounded the jewelry and sent photographs of it to detectives at Miami-Dade to investigate it further. No evidence ever surfaced at that time that the jewelry was stolen. An attorney for Martin’s family said the parents did not know about the jewelry or screwdriver.

  6. @SJW: It’s legal in Florida to shoot someone attacking you, yes. People ‘going about their lawful business’ don’t tend to beat the crap out of you when you ask them what they are doing, in my experience.

    And Martin’s history is of going equipped for burglary and being found in possession of stolen jewellery, coupled with poor school attendance and the usual social media boasting about the sort of lifestyle you do t want to see in any young man your teenage daughter brings home.

    But hey, he could have been Obama’s son, right?

  7. I’m not an advocate of violence, in person or in others.

    However, if I had been in Mr. Zimmerman’s position I would have acted similarly in self-defence and if that meant shooting Trayvon Martin dead? So be it.

  8. The only facts I have ever seen from this case are that Martin is dead and Zimmerman’s gun fired the bullet. A jury found Zimmerman not guilty but given the justice system’s bias that doesn’t mean much.

    At this point there is one person in the world who has a clue what happened, if his mind hasn’t rewritten the incident. If you aren’t that person, yet you claim to know exactly what happened, then your prejudice is showing.

    Now I can go back to the gun. Given the passage of enough time I can very easily see it being a museum piece. That doesn’t mean an auctioneer has to put up with the problems associated with selling it. At least one of the auction trolls has some knowledge of the NERC.

  9. ‘Two of America’s leading auctioneers of guns said they refused on ethical grounds’

    Liars.

  10. Zimmerman’s account of what happened is what he needed to say to get off. Commentators here are not usually so naive as to treat as gospel every word a man says in such circumstances.

    SMFS has copied and pasted an account of Martin’s misdeeds: he seems to have been somewhat delinquent, but he’d have needed to have upped his game if he wanted to be considered as the next leader of the Conservative Party. And there’s no suggestion of thuggery there.

    Whereas Zimmerman:
    “… arrested after shoving an undercover alcohol control agent…”
    “…ex-fiancée filed a restraining order against him, alleging domestic violence…”
    “…Zimmerman’s estranged wife…reported that Zimmerman had threatened her and her father with a gun and had punched her father in the face…”
    “…Zimmerman’s girlfriend called the police alleging that…he had pointed a shotgun at her…He was charged with aggravated assault with a weapon…as well as domestic violence battery…”
    “…charged with aggravated assault with a weapon after allegedly throwing a wine bottle at his ex-girlfriend…”

    Who’s the thug?

  11. Re: Liberal Yank and SJW

    We all know the score. You’re all fluffy and liberal, till a Trayvon type kicks your head in… then lo and behold you’ll take positions similar to the others on this forum.

    Question is – how many of your ilk will die at stage one?

  12. Flubber, they might not. Remember that idiot on Twitter who was mugged in the Jungle in Calais, then immediately tweeted that the life of a refugee was so harsh, it was understandable?

    When I read a post by SJW or LY, I always think about him.

  13. As a matter of fact, there was plenty of evidence supporting Z’s story that he had been assaulted by Martin – bruises on Z’s face and the back of his head, eyewitness description of Martin on top of Z, forensics experts testifying that Martin’s shirt was away from his body when the bullet was fired – and none supporting the media narrative of a cold blooded killer redneck stalking and summarily executing Martin.

    But people are going to believe what they want to believe, especially if it makes them feel morally superior.

    There was never enough evidence to support a prosecution of Zimmerman, which is why the local cops didn’t charge him in the first place.

  14. Not much knowledge displayed here on the subject of ethical gun owners or proper self-defense techniques, so let me clue you in…

    The primary reason Gunbroker dropped the Zimmerman gun auction was that they an ethical and responsible member of the gun community. Those of us who have training in firearms and self-defense know that George Zimmerman is exactly the sort of asshole that gives responsible gun owners a bad rap. Here’s a list of SOME of the things Zimmerman did wrong:

    1) He carried a firearm on a block watch patrol, thus violating one of cardinal rules of block watch conduct. Your duty on block watch patrol is simple: If you see something suspicious, you withdrawal and contact the authorities. Nothing else. Period. For that, you don’t need a gun.
    2) He intervened in a developing situation while on block watch patrol, thus violating another of the cardinal rules of block watch conduct. Your duty on block watch patrol is simple: If you see something suspicious, you withdrawal and contact the authorities. Nothing else. Period.
    3) Because Zimmerman had a gun, he felt empowered to escalate the situation, when he shouldn’t have inserted himself in the situation in the first place. All that shows is that he was too stupid to understand either his proper role in block watch or the proper role of a handgun in self-defense.

    Whether Martin was a thug isn’t the issue. The issue is that Zimmerman made a series of very bad decisions that ended up costing a young man his life. Zimmerman did just about everything he possibly could have done in that situation in exactly the wrong matter. Far from being a hero, those of us who understand a bit about self-defense and handgun see Zimmerman for what he is: A. Complete. Fuckup. Which is why gun owners such as myself loathe him completely.

    One of the crosses we responsible gun owners have to bear is having to put up being blamed for the actions of little-dick wannabes like George Zimmerman. Even a cursory examination of Zimmerman’s life before the Martin shooting
    shows he as a complete fuck-up. His solution to a life of failure and insignificance was to pick up a gun and play tough guy. If you want to defend that, that’s fine… Just don’t be surprised if someone with knowledge and training starts treating you like a fool.

  15. ” Even a cursory examination of Zimmerman’s life before the Martin shooting shows he as a complete fuck-up.”

    Including his mentoring of black youths?

  16. Dennis,

    Very well put. The reason I don’t carry a gun is because I recognize I do not have the training necessary to ensure I wouldn’t shoot the wrong person. I simply can’t conceive of actively putting myself in the position Zimmerman put himself into. That means it doesn’t matter what Martin did or didn’t do.

  17. Including his mentoring of black youths?

    Cherry-picking that particular fact doesn’t change the reality of Zimmerman’s life, Richard. I’m sure you recognize that.

    I can’t help noticing the lack of rebuttal to my list of the three errors Zimmerman made leading up to the shooting.

  18. Dennis The Peasant: ‘The issue is that Zimmerman made a series of very bad decisions that ended up costing a young man his life.’

    Seems like Zimmerman made all the bad decisions, according to you. But Martin didn’t?

    If he hadn’t been collected by Zimmerman, he’d probably have died a few years later at the hands, knife or gun of another urban rat just like himself. No loss.

  19. Sure, Dennis, next time some young street rat is beating a man’s head into the pavement, he should hope that God will save him.

    I hear that never fails…

  20. There seem to be a couple of interesting effects stemming from the myth making around Trayvon Martin and the likes of Michael Brown in Ferguson.

    One is a large increase in crime, (especially murder) in mostlly black urban areas in US cities as the police seem ever more reluctant to engage in policing these areas for fear of becoming involved in the kind of imbroglio that enmeshed Zimmerman and Officer Wilson.

    The other is the huge increase in gun ownership in the largely white suburbs.

    One wonders if these effects are the unintended consequences of the unrest stoked by the race baiters, (including Obama), that involved themselves in the affairs, or worse, the intended consequences.

  21. Sure, Dennis, next time some young street rat is beating a man’s head into the pavement, he should hope that God will save him.

    But Dennis’ logic is that Zimmerman could have avoided this situation in the first place – which would have been eminently sensible.

  22. Sure, Dennis, next time some young street rat is beating a man’s head into the pavement, he should hope that God will save him.

    Straw man: Has nothing to do with the situation Zimmerman was in and you know it.

    Stay away from guns, please… You’re just the sort of maladjusted goof that would end up putting 18 bullets into 4 innocent bystanders trying to be a hero in a situation you don’t belong it.

    Just admit to yourself that you have issues and take the next logical step into some sort of therapy…

  23. But Dennis’ logic is that Zimmerman could have avoided this situation in the first place – which would have been eminently sensible.

    Not only could have but SHOULD HAVE.

  24. Dennis, I’m white, female, upper middle class and English. So ‘staying away from guns’ isn’t going to be a problem..

    I have no issues. And no need for therapy.

  25. Longrider: ‘But Dennis’ logic is that Zimmerman could have avoided this situation in the first place..’

    He could have. And Martin could have gone on to rob/rape/kill somebody else that night.

    We can play the ‘could’ game all night. The main fact is that no-one sensible can disagree that the world is not the poorer for Martin no longer being in it.

  26. Why do otherwise sensible people get so weepy and sentimental about Trayvon Martin? He thought he’d put a beatdown on Z, not knowing that he was armed. It didn’t work out for him, so tough shit. Let it be a lesson to the other would-be tough guys out there.

  27. Dennis, I’m white, female, upper middle class and English. So ‘staying away from guns’ isn’t going to be a problem..

    Upon further thought, you probably wouldn’t benefit from therapy… You’re a very typical Euroweenie: Completely defenseless and completely bloodthirsty – as long as someone else is doing your killing for you.

    For all your tough talk, when the mayor of Londonstan orders you to don the hijab, you’ll meekly do as you’re told… Because you’re English and white and upper middle class and as such, you couldn’t take care of yourself even if you wanted to.

  28. Why do otherwise sensible people get so weepy and sentimental about Trayvon Martin?

    I am not weepy about Trayvon Martin. For his part, he did exactly the wrong thing and it cost him his life. But that isn’t the point: The point is that Zimmerman had to stand his ground against Trayvon Martin because he violated just about every rule there is for proper self defense.

    Want to know the best way to avoid being shot in a gunfight?

    Don’t get in a gunfight.

    While that isn’t always possible, if you don’t understand that rule as being the most important of them all, then you aren’t practicing proper self-defense… Which means that for all your trouble in arming yourself, all you are doing is putting yourself (and other innocents) at unnecessary risk.

    There’s a right way and a wrong way to practice self-defense. George Zimmerman did it the wrong way. Whether Trayvon Martin was a thug doesn’t change that.

  29. Zimmerman’s story is that Martin jumped him from behind as he was headed back to his vehicle and the government presented zero evidence to contradict that at the trial. None.

    As to whether Z did or did not follow proper neighborhood watch procedures in the runup to their encounter, that’s neither here nor there. He wasn’t charged with failing to abide by the terms of his Block Patrol Handbook, he was charged with murder with depraved intent. And the state failed to prove that case in rather spectacular fashion.

  30. Umm… Call me an old silly, but wouldn’t practicing the sort of self-defense techniques that don’t get you charged with murder be a good idea? It is my contention that if Zimmerman had employed the proper self-defense techniques in the first place the confrontation wouldn’t have happened, Martin would be alive and Zimmerman wouldn’t have been charged with murder.

    There’s a difference between self-defense and proper self-defense.

    Aside: Getting jumped from behind was Zimmerman’s courtroom testimony. His initial statements to the police were a bit different from that, and in no small part those differences led to the charge of murder in the first place.

  31. The forensic evidence in the case made it quite clear the Trayvon was astride Zimmerman beating his head against the pavement when he was shot.

    He was a black thug and the world is a better place without him.

    Fuck him.

  32. So Much For Subtlety

    Social Justice Warrior – “Who’s the thug?”

    So what you are saying is that Hispanics of partially African origin have major anger management issues?

    The only thing that matters is what he did before the incident. Because being charged with murder because of a press beat up over a perfectly legal shooting resulting from perfectly good community minded action might well leave one with some justifiable anger to deal with.

    But maybe you’re right and it is his African genes.

  33. So Much For Subtlety

    Dennis the Peasant – “The primary reason Gunbroker dropped the Zimmerman gun auction was that they an ethical and responsible member of the gun community.”

    So selling the gun that shot Lee Harvey Oswald is being an ethical and responsible member of the gun community because …. why? Ruby was a fine and upstanding member of the Texas community?

    “Your duty on block watch patrol is simple: If you see something suspicious, you withdrawal and contact the authorities. Nothing else. Period. For that, you don’t need a gun.”

    Which is precisely what Zimmerman did. He saw something suspicious. He called it in. He went back to his truck. He got jumped on the way there.

    “3) Because Zimmerman had a gun, he felt empowered to escalate the situation, when he shouldn’t have inserted himself in the situation in the first place.”

    Zimmerman neither escalated the situation nor inserted himself into the situation. He saw something suspicious. He followed to see what was going on. He called it in. He went back to his truck. Where upon he was jumped by the deceased.

    “The issue is that Zimmerman made a series of very bad decisions that ended up costing a young man his life. Zimmerman did just about everything he possibly could have done in that situation in exactly the wrong matter.”

    B0ll0cks. Zimmerman did not make one single poor call. Maybe he could have been even more suspicious and called it in even earlier, but no more than that.

    “Which is why gun owners such as myself loathe him completely.”

    You are in a definite minority of gun owners.

    Dennis the Peasant – “Straw man: Has nothing to do with the situation Zimmerman was in and you know it.”

    It is exactly the situation Zimmerman was in. He had wounds to his face and to the back of his head. Martin was beating his brains out against a piece of concrete. Which is where your narrative of the wanna-be cop falls down. Zimmerman did not pull out his gun and shoot at the first opportunity. As the forensics shows, he was down on the ground, with Martin on top of him, having his brains beaten out. Only then did he use the gun.

    It is entirely relevant.

    “Just admit to yourself that you have issues and take the next logical step into some sort of therapy…”

    Why don’t you turn up the rhetoric just a little more Dennis, I am sure the dial goes all the way to 11?

    Dennis the Peasant – “For all your tough talk, when the mayor of Londonstan orders you to don the hijab, you’ll meekly do as you’re told… Because you’re English and white and upper middle class and as such, you couldn’t take care of yourself even if you wanted to.”

    I loved your blog when you used to run it Dude, but do you really think this is helping? Or even making responsible gun owners look good? I am sure Julia would. Because she is a law abiding person. But Zimmerman probably would not. Because he did not submit to having his brains beaten out. He also was a law abiding person who chose not to be a victim. Good for him.

    Dennis the Peasant – “The point is that Zimmerman had to stand his ground against Trayvon Martin because he violated just about every rule there is for proper self defense.”

    The only rule you have mentioned so far is that he brought a gun on patrol with him. I think that is perfectly reasonable. He was in no hurry to use it.

    “Don’t get in a gunfight.”

    Sure. And Zimmerman was not in a gunfight. He was on the ground having his brains beaten out.

    Dennis the Peasant – “It is my contention that if Zimmerman had employed the proper self-defense techniques in the first place the confrontation wouldn’t have happened, Martin would be alive and Zimmerman wouldn’t have been charged with murder.”

    Sure. Because Zimmerman would have had his brains beaten out. Zimmerman would be dead and Martin would be alive. How is that an improvement? What proper self defence technique is going to save you from being jumped by a thug from behind?

    “Aside: Getting jumped from behind was Zimmerman’s courtroom testimony. His initial statements to the police were a bit different from that, and in no small part those differences led to the charge of murder in the first place.”

    No they were not. The charge of murder was entirely down to media hysteria. The police looked into the incident and said there was nothing to see and no reason to charge Zimmerman. He acted entirely in self defence. Then the national media went into melt down mode and insisted that this was Selma all over again – until the police was pressured into charging Zimmerman for political reasons. This is not in dispute. There is no question about this at all. Even the politically correct Wikipedia admits this:

    Zimmerman was subsequently taken into custody, treated for head injuries, then questioned for five hours. The police chief said that Zimmerman was released because there was no evidence to refute Zimmerman’s claim of having acted in self-defense, and that under Florida’s Stand Your Ground statute, the police were prohibited by law from making an arrest.[18] The police chief also said that Zimmerman had had a right to defend himself with lethal force.[19] As news of the case spread, thousands of protesters across the country called for Zimmerman’s arrest and a full investigation.[20] Six weeks after the shooting, amid widespread, intense, and in some cases misleading media coverage,[21][22] Zimmerman was charged with murder by a special prosecutor appointed by Governor Rick Scott.

    If you don’t know this, why are you commenting?

    Zimmerman did nothing wrong. Nothing at all. And yeah, I know, I know, I am a Euroweenie, I have a small pecker, you saved my butt in 1812. Whatever. You can do better Dude.

  34. Actually, you’re a bigot and a fool, dude, and the only reason you’re defending Zimmerman is because he killed someone – anyone – who was black.

    Go back to jerking off to “Death Wish IV”, dude.

  35. So Much For Subtlety

    Dennis the Peasant – “Actually, you’re a bigot and a fool, dude, and the only reason you’re defending Zimmerman is because he killed someone – anyone – who was black.”

    See? The dial does go up to 11. But again you do not prove a single thing. About any of your claims. It does not even look like Zimmerman took his gun on patrol. It looks like he was going to the shop to buy some things when he saw Martin. Now perhaps he should not have taken his gun to go shopping.

    The only reason that Zimmerman was charged was because Martin was Black and everyone thought Zimmerman was White.

    “Go back to jerking off to “Death Wish IV”, dude.”

    Come on. Everyone knows III was the last good one.

  36. The first and most important claim I made still stands unrefuted… That Zimmerman was armed at a time when, if he had been doing what he was supposed to be doing correctly, he would not have been armed. All else follows from that. If you want to believe Trayvon Martin wandered in and decided to beat the shit out of Zimmerman just for funsies, be my guest. I don’t. I look at it differently… largely because I’ve spent enough time around people with guns to know what happens to some of them when they arm themselves.

    Zimmerman armed himself at a time when, under the rules he was supposed to be following , being armed was prohibited. That is irresponsible behavior in the first degree. All else follows from that. If you want to assume that having once been incredibly irresponsible he then conducted himself in a completely responsible manner, be my guest. I don’t.

    In any event, the thing that is worth point here is that instead of refuting my points about what Zimmerman did wrong, you and JuliaM and your cohorts simply circle back to “Fuck him. He was a thug and I’m glad he’s dead”. Of course, none of you actually have the balls to say what you’re really thinking… Namely, “Fuck him. He was a nigger and therefore a thug and I’m glad he’s dead.” Hence, the dialing it up to 11… just calling you out on what you are.

    If George Zimmerman had shot some white as snow Eton grad on vacation in the States under the exact same circumstances, you’d all be doing your Euroweenie dance about how all we Yanks are all trigger happy barbarians and can’t solve any problem without shooting someone.

    Zimmerman was a fuck up. And true to form, he fucked up. The fact that you prefer your niggers dead to living doesn’t change that.

  37. @ Dennis
    You probably know more about the US social situation than any UK commentator on this blog, but …
    I never carry weapons other than those I was born with, partly because middle-class Britons don’t and partly because my self-defence techniques as an eight-stone not-utterly-weakling worked when I was a child/teenager; I did once or twice disarm a weedy kid a bit bigger and a year or so older who pulled a flick-knife on me. BUT Julia M is not me – she is an upper-middle class gal – so why should you want her to be exposed to thugs who have (since Woy Jenkins said only innocent victims shoud die) no fear of the consequences of their behaviour?
    In the UK we have plenty of thugs who are not black – in fact I cannot recall encountering a black thug, but my sons (neither of whom have my self-defence capacities, one being asthmatic and the other autistic) have been on many occasions attacked by white thugs (as a result, #1 son had to go to hospital more times while at secondary school than I have in my whole life). So in the UK being anti-thug is not as racist as you imagine. If you read the newspapers you will see lots of black kids killed by other black kids but very few whites killed by blacks and far fewer blacks killed by whites.
    Drop your uninformed views that anti-thug Britons are racist.

  38. So Much For Subtlety

    Dennis the Peasant – “The first and most important claim I made still stands unrefuted… That Zimmerman was armed at a time when, if he had been doing what he was supposed to be doing correctly, he would not have been armed. All else follows from that.”

    Actually it has been. Zimmerman was not on patrol. He was on a personal errand when he saw Martin. Driving home in his truck. Whether or not he should have been carrying on patrol is irrelevant. He was minding his own business, while carrying. As is his perfect legal right in Florida. Even if he had been carrying while on patrol that too is his perfect legal right.

    “If you want to believe Trayvon Martin wandered in and decided to beat the shit out of Zimmerman just for funsies, be my guest. I don’t.”

    Sure but you have not explained why except for some general abuse hurdled in the direction of Zimmerman for being a concerned citizen who devoted a lot of his free time to the neighbourhood watch programme.

    We know why Martin got angry – he did not like being followed. Fair enough. I wouldn’t either. But I would not try to bash someone’s skull in for it.

    “Zimmerman armed himself at a time when, under the rules he was supposed to be following , being armed was prohibited.”

    It is against the law for someone with a permit to carry while driving their truck?

    “In any event, the thing that is worth point here is that instead of refuting my points about what Zimmerman did wrong, you and JuliaM and your cohorts simply circle back to “Fuck him. He was a thug and I’m glad he’s dead”.”

    Sorry but what point do you think you have left? They have all been refuted. Zimmerman was not doing anything wrong. He certainly was not the Wild West cowboy you seem to think he was. He did not escalate the confrontation as you claim – or at least we do not know if he did. And he certainly did not come out shooting. He shot as a last resort once he was on the ground and was sustaining life-threatening injuries to his head. Who wouldn’t have shot in that circumstance?

    “Of course, none of you actually have the balls to say what you’re really thinking… Namely, “Fuck him. He was a nigger and therefore a thug and I’m glad he’s dead.” Hence, the dialing it up to 11… just calling you out on what you are.”

    I think one or two people have come close. But when you are arguing with what you *think* other people believe rather than what they actually say, you have lost the plot. Everyone here maybe a secret member of the KKK. But I doubt it. Whether or not they are, it is an argument in bad faith to assume a bias not in evidence.

    “If George Zimmerman had shot some white as snow Eton grad on vacation in the States under the exact same circumstances, you’d all be doing your Euroweenie dance about how all we Yanks are all trigger happy barbarians and can’t solve any problem without shooting someone.”

    Any American is welcome to shoot as many pallid Eton students they like – if the Eton student is pounding their head into the concrete at the time.

    “Zimmerman was a fuck up. And true to form, he fucked up. The fact that you prefer your niggers dead to living doesn’t change that.”

    Your words. Not mine. Zimmerman seems to have been a decent man who volunteered his time to the community. He was, I admit, marginally middle class but I don’t think that snobbery is a good thing. He was one of the many people who give their time to making their communities better places. He should have been thanked. Not charged.

  39. We know why Martin got angry – he did not like being followed.

    Your words, not mine, and thus proving my point that Zimmerman didn’t just fuck up once by arming himself and then did everything by the book.

    Had Zimmerman been doing block watch correctly, he wouldn’t have followed Trayvon Martin in the first place. That’s NOT what you are supposed to do when you do a block watch patrol… YOU DON’T FOLLOW ANYONE. You observe and then you WITHDRAW.

    OK, so now we’ve established that he fucked up TWICE. We’ve also now established – based on your statement above – that Zimmerman himself created the situation that lead to Martin attacking him. A situation that Zimmerman created by not following the established procedures he was bound by and expected to follow.

    You probably don’t know the four cardinal rules of gun safety (google ’em), but they work this way: You have to follow all four of them to ensure our safety and the safety of those around you. You cannot violate one and expect that following the other three makes up for that violation. It doesn’t work that way. You either follow all four all the time or you are an unsafe and irresponsible gun owner. Period.

    It’s the same with self-defense and George Zimmerman. You cannot break the established rules, procedures and protocols you don’t like and then make up for it by following the rest of the rules, procedures and protocols. You either follow ALL of the rules, procedures and protocols or you are BY DEFINITION proceeding in an unsafe and irresponsible manner. Period.

    George Zimmerman did the wrong thing. TWICE. He armed himself and then he followed someone. And because of it he ended up shooting an unarmed kid. Zimmerman conducted himself irresponsibly and because of it, he ended up in an unsafe situation. An unsafe situation he created because he didn’t follow the rules established to guide his conduct.

    George Zimmerman shot Trayvon Martin because he was a fuck-up and a fool. If he’d done things the way he was supposed to, there’s an excellent chance Trayvon Martin never would have attacked him. The rule Block Watch has in place are, first and foremost, designed to keep volunteers as safe as possible. A point that seems as lost on you as it was on Zimmerman.

  40. Any American is welcome to shoot as many pallid Eton students they like – if the Eton student is pounding their head into the concrete at the time.

    Can you provide an estimate of how many Etonians you would expect to attack a Yank without any provocation in an average year?

  41. So Much For Subtlety

    Dennis the Peasant – “Your words, not mine, and thus proving my point that Zimmerman didn’t just fuck up once by arming himself and then did everything by the book.”

    The fact remains that Zimmerman did not f**k up at all.

    “Had Zimmerman been doing block watch correctly, he wouldn’t have followed Trayvon Martin in the first place. That’s NOT what you are supposed to do when you do a block watch patrol… YOU DON’T FOLLOW ANYONE. You observe and then you WITHDRAW.”

    He observed. He withdrew. Not fast enough for Martin not to have noticed. Zimmerman seems to have wanted to see what Martin was doing and whether this was worth reporting. But this is dancing on the head of a pin territory. It is trivial compared to the death of Martin and the attempt to have Zimmerman jailed. He did not deserve a single day in prison simply for following someone.

    “OK, so now we’ve established that he fucked up TWICE.”

    No we have not. All your claims have been shown to be wrong. He was not on patrol. Do you seriously think that no one should be allowed to drive with a gun?

    “We’ve also now established – based on your statement above – that Zimmerman himself created the situation that lead to Martin attacking him.”

    A girl may wear a miniskirt, it doesn’t mean she is asking to be raped. The criminal creates the criminal act. Not the victim. Being followed is not an excuse for GBH and it is bizarre that you would argue otherwise.

    “A situation that Zimmerman created by not following the established procedures he was bound by and expected to follow.”

    He did what the government asked – he saw something, he said something. For which he was thrown in jail. You have not shown he did anything wrong.

    “You either follow all four all the time or you are an unsafe and irresponsible gun owner. Period.”

    Now you are making sh!t up. Which of the four rules did Zimmerman violate?

    “You either follow ALL of the rules, procedures and protocols or you are BY DEFINITION proceeding in an unsafe and irresponsible manner. Period.”

    Which one did Zimmerman fail to follow? He waited until he was on the ground having his head pounded in. That looks pretty responsible to me. As the Florida police agreed as they refused to charge him.

    “George Zimmerman did the wrong thing. TWICE. He armed himself and then he followed someone.”

    And on what planet is this illegal? He had a concealed carry permit. He was carrying. How is that wrong? He saw something suspicious. He called it in. How is that wrong? The Dispatcher asked him which way Martin was running. Zimmerman got out of his car to check. When the dispatcher told him not to, he stopped and went back to his truck. What was wrong with that?

    “George Zimmerman shot Trayvon Martin because he was a fuck-up and a fool.”

    No, you are here venting for some reason that escapes me. It has nothing to do with Zimmerman. He did what he was supposed to. He did what he was asked. He got thrown in prison for it.

    “If he’d done things the way he was supposed to, there’s an excellent chance Trayvon Martin never would have attacked him.”

    Sure. And in Julia does what she is supposed to, she is unlikely to shoot anyone either. As she is not allowed a gun. That kind of misses the point. Zimmerman did nothing wrong. It is a crime to try to beat someone to death for following you. It is not a crime to protect yourself. End of story.

    “The rule Block Watch has in place are, first and foremost, designed to keep volunteers as safe as possible. A point that seems as lost on you as it was on Zimmerman.”

    He was not breaking any of the rules.

    Now you keep changing the goal posts and arguing for something you were not arguing for before. No doubt you will do so again. But you still have not proved a single one of your claims. You are simply venting. And I say this as the closest thing you have to a fan around here. Do better.

  42. So Much For Subtlety

    Dennis the Peasant – “Can you provide an estimate of how many Etonians you would expect to attack a Yank without any provocation in an average year?”

    No idea. Don’t care. The point is any time a pallid person of British origin tries to pound someone else’s head into the concrete, the victim has my complete 100% blessing to shoot him as many times as he likes.

  43. @ SMFS
    Don’t faint – as a pallid Briton, I agree with you on .”The point is any time a pallid person of British origin tries to pound someone else’s head into the concrete, the victim has my complete 100% blessing to shoot him as many times as he likes.”

  44. This “pounding his head into the concrete” story is obvious rubbish. Try it and check your injuries after.

    If he hadn’t been collected by Zimmerman…

    Does that mean what I think it means?

  45. So Much For Subtlety

    Social Justice Warrior – “This “pounding his head into the concrete” story is obvious rubbish. Try it and check your injuries after.”

    There are photos of Zimmerman’s injuries. No one disputes that in fact Martin was beating Zimmerman and that his head came into contact with the concrete.

    Doubt it all you like. No one else does.

  46. SMFS –

    Congratulations… You’re to self-defense what Richard Murphy Is to Economics: Uneducated, untrained, inexperienced, opinionated and completely unfazed by your own ignorance.

    That’s quite something to live down to, but some how you’ve managed.

  47. ‘Zimmerman armed himself at a time when, under the rules he was supposed to be following , being armed was prohibited.’

    Whose rules?

    ‘He carried a firearm on a block watch patrol, thus violating one of cardinal rules of block watch conduct.’

    WTF? Whose ‘cardinal rules of block watch conduct?’ Zimmerman was legally carrying a gun.

  48. Gamecock, I think Dennis means ‘Dennis’ unwritten rules of block conduct’…

    “Any American is welcome to shoot as many pallid Eton students they like – if the Eton student is pounding their head into the concrete at the time….”

    Dennis must be very puzzled why such a bloodthirsty racist as myself (in his head, at least) is perfectly happy to see the police gun down trigger happy and lily-white Mark Saunders

    But then his claims of racism in others sits a little uneasily with his frothing about ‘the Mayor of Londonistan’ making me wear a hijab at some point in the future.

  49. Julia- this has moved on a bit, but avoiding a situation is the sensible thing to do. Self defence if faced with an immediate threat is fine. But that wasn’t the case. Confronting Trayvon made no sense whatsoever. At that point, he wasn’t a threat, no matter what he had been doing prior to that. This is similar to the Martin case in the UK a few years back. Martin shot his burglar in the back when he was fleeing. Quite rightly, the jury decided that he wasn’t in immediate danger and, therefore, self defence didn’t apply.

    Sorry, but you’re way off here. Scumbag or not, Trayvon shouldn’t have died that night because Zimmerman should not have initiated a confrontation. The man was a fool.

  50. Clearly neither of you have ever been involved in a police sponsored block watch program. They are common in the USA and they are standardized.

    So the answer is, the rules are those established by (1) the citizen sponsors of the block watch, in conjunction with (2) the local police. And it is a formal association between the two, using standardized rules of conduct developed over decades of experience.

    So now that I’ve answered your questions, Gamecock and JuliaM, please take a moment ponder just how little you know about the subject at hand.

  51. Google “block watch information” and start getting and idea whose rules, and what type of rules, were in place for Zimmerman to follow.

    You’re a bigot and fool, JuliaM… And now you’ve proved you’re too lazy and stupid to educate yourself on the subject at hand.

  52. No, Dennis, not too lazy. I’ll take instruction from those who can politely disagree, as LR does, without labelling those they disagree with as bigots.

    From you, I take nothing.

  53. Yeah, adopt as lofty an attitude as possible and then flee quickly, hoping no one notices you got caught spouting rubbish.

    There’s nothing dignified about how happy you are that Trayvon Martin is dead, so you can lose the dignified pose… No one is going to buy it.

  54. Anyone who thinks that Zimmerman was not correct in almost everything he did is simply a faggott cuck.

    The only thing he did wrong was not double tapping.

  55. not to be happy that a thug got his comeuppance?

    You’re confused Julia. The thug, the man with a history of assaults, got off. The 17-year-old boy with no such history, walking home from the shop with a packet of sweets and a soft drink, ended up in the mortuary.

  56. Anyone who thinks that Zimmerman was not correct in almost everything he did is simply a faggott cuck.

    You only say that because you don’t know what you’re talking about, Andy Dear.

    Double taps are only used by guys who don’t know any better than to get their “tactical training” watching YouTube videos made by goofs like James Yeager.

    If you were anything other than a Mall Ninja, you’d know enough to use a controlled pair rather than a double tap in any and all situations.

  57. Let’s review, Julia.

    Here’s what we know about what you don’t know:
    1) You don’t know anything about self-defense.
    2) You don’t know anything about guns.
    3) You don’t know anything block watch programs.

    Here’s what we know about what you do know:
    1) Based on your level of enthusiasm, the thought of someone shooting young black men to death seems to set your thighs aquiver.
    2) You’re shocked anyone might come to the conclusion that, well, you prefer your black men dead to living.

  58. Citizens have the right to have a gun. Whether he had training or not, he had the right to have a gun. Whether he was on neighborhood watch or not, he had the right to have a gun.

    His having a gun was not a “bad decision.” Police training should involve how to use a gun if you have one. Police training telling him not to have a gun is stupid. A bad decision. With a bad result.

  59. Police training telling him not to have a gun is stupid. A bad decision. With a bad result.

    If you don’t want to follow established police procedure while on block watch, then DON’T JOIN FUCKING BLOCK WATCH. Police procedure is there for a reason… A reason, for example, like keeping some fuck-up from initiating a sequence of events that ends with an unarmed young man dead from a gunshot wound.

    Police training should involve how to use a gun if you have one.

    You really are ignorant. Rule One of Responsible Gun Ownership: It is the gun owners responsibility to get the level of training necessary for them to safely operate their firearm at all times. The police have nothing to do with it… It isn’t their job to provide training to the general public, and I don’t know of a single police department in the US that does.

    Is there some sort of contest going here about who can demonstrate the least knowledge and most stupidity when it comes to guns and self-defense?

  60. Warning to U.S. bad guys: your target may not have had training telling him not to have a gun, and he may do something stupid like shoot you.

    ‘You really are ignorant. Rule One of Responsible Gun Ownership: It is the gun owners responsibility to get the level of training necessary for them to safely operate their firearm at all times.’

    Absolutely false. No training is required.

  61. Every gun owner should have a meeting with authorities, who will tell them not to shoot the dude who richly deserves shooting. In fact, you should just leave your gun at home.

  62. Over 50,000,000 U.S. gun owners have NOT had training. Where’s the problem? There’s not.

  63. BTW . . . for those of you not familiar with U.S. law:

    In training for neighborhood watch, if the police say, “Don’t carry a gun,” it is not a RULE. It is a suggestion. Unless the local law specifically says you can’t carry a gun, the police directive is empty. They have no such authority.

    So when Zimmerman allegedly broke a rule, no, he just didn’t follow a suggestion.

  64. Of course our you’ve actually verified that with the specific locality and block watch Zimmerman was a part of, right?

    Could you direct us to the police dept./block watch rules in question for that particular locality? Most publish them on the internet these days, and if I’ve misspoke I’ll happily modify my statements above.

    I’ll wait…

  65. I’m sure that this will be lost on your own bad-ass, bloodthirsty self, Gamecock, but doesn’t the end result of the Zimmerman/Martin affair suggest that perhaps when the police ask that people don’t arm themselves for block watch, they might just know what they are talking about?

  66. One more thing: Irrespective or law, I think you are going to be disappointed in the number of police depts. and block watches allow firearms to be carried on patrol.

    You see, there’s this thing call legal liability…

    Look it up, put on your thinking cap, and if you think real hard, you might just bump into the obvious.

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