Democracy, it’s a wonderful thing, isn’t it?

Pro-Remain MPs are considering using their Commons majority to keep Britain inside the EU single market if there is a vote for Brexit, the BBC has learned.
The MPs fear a post-Brexit government might negotiate a limited free trade deal with the EU, which they say would damage the UK’s economy.
There is a pro-Remain majority in the House of Commons of 454 MPs to 147.
A Vote Leave campaign spokesman said MPs will not be able to “defy the will of the electorate” on key issues.
The single market guarantees the free movement of goods, people, services and capital.
The BBC has learned pro-Remain MPs would use their voting power in the House of Commons to protect what they see as the economic benefits of a single market, which gives the UK access to 500 million consumers.
Staying inside the single market would mean Britain would have to keep its borders open to EU workers and continue paying into EU coffers.

Sigh.

80 thoughts on “Democracy, it’s a wonderful thing, isn’t it?”

  1. No. If the UK votes Leave, what are they voting for? Norway? Canada, Pitcairn Island?

    The HoC will then have to decide which model they want. Seeing as 75% of MPs are for Remain, the likelihood is they will chose Norway: paying as much in, adopting the rules without input, freedom of movement.

    Brexiteers need to be honest with themselves about this

  2. Back again Stevie?

    You really are scum. We vote out and then get shafted by MP dross and that is “realistic”. The bit about shafting us is realism alright but the implied acceptance of such antics as being ok with the remain gang marks you and any who are as vermin.

    Anything so long as your paymasters get their way and the march toward socialistic tyranny continues.

  3. Democracy?
    Aren’t we supposed to use the word ‘populism’, now? With attached sneer.

  4. So Much For Subtlety

    Steve. – “Seeing as 75% of MPs are for Remain, the likelihood is they will chose Norway: paying as much in, adopting the rules without input, freedom of movement.”

    Deals have to be negotiated. That will take time. If the present members of Parliament want to directly flout the will of the people, they can go to an election with that record hanging around their neck.

    Personally I don’t think many would be so stupid. But if they were, one Parliament cannot bind another one. Once Britain is out, the next Parliament can revisit whatever deal was struck. It is not as if the EU Courts will be able to stop them.

  5. There is no need to go with the Norwegian model. Norway exports $200 billion of oil, gas and fish, mostly to the EU and imports $100 billion over half from the EU. It is worthwhile for Norway to bribe the EU to drop all import duties.

    The UK exports £230 billion to the EU and imports £340 billion from the EU. There is no need for the UK to pay the EU Danegeld. Whether our politicians and bureaucrats have the ability to recognise that and negotiate the right deal is another matter.

  6. Ecks and So Much – Taking the Norway option isn’t flouting the will of the people. Norway is out of the EU.

    But, if you want the Canada option, then fine. But Leave has to say clearly they want out of the single market.

    Leave is being like Ed Milliband promising a moon on stick for all on 24th June

  7. If the pro-EU MPs do join the single market post Brexit the voters can remove them in 4 years. Bet they won’t though.

  8. Well, with public perception of parliament and MPs bumping along at record lows, that would be a bold move.

    Nigel Farage must lie awake at night dreaming of this.

  9. Don’t confuse the EU with the Single Market. The referendum concerns leaving the EU; the MPs concern is leaving the Single Market.

    The MPs are right. To leave the Single Market on day one would be a disaster – see the only sensible Brexit plan – http://www.eureferendum.com/themarketsolution.pdf (mentioned on Newsnight last night which said that civil servants are studying it).

    This uses the “Norway Option” as a temporary stage on the way to our future. To leave the Single Market relying on WTO rules is madness. It took us 40 years to get into this mess; it will take a few years to get out. Vote Leave haven’t got a clue.

    There is a brilliant graphic showing the differences between EU and EEA at http://peterjnorth.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/no-fear-of-norway-option.html

    Note that we would be free of the CAP and CFP.

  10. David Jones, nice post, The Market Solution/Flexit is the only rational way to leave the EU. One good reason for not rushing is that other countries may well follow us in leaving the EU. Once the dust settles we will have a better idea of the long term options.

  11. Well said, David Jones!
    The problem with this campaign is that it is largely just fact-free sound bites (on both sides).
    Folks: do please read of the links in David’s post for a properly thought out plan.
    We need to be out of the EU political project and the first step is to re-join EFTA – the real “Common Market”.

  12. Burble, burble, burble. People are being sold “Leave the EU and immigration will end”. You bunch of lying sub-Milibandesque toe rags

    Fortunately Remain is going to win 57/43

  13. The Remain camp have spent the last couple of years claiming the Norway option, which no one is proposing, would be a disaster.

    Have they started deleting thier tweets and websites?

  14. The biggest vote winner for Vote Leave has been and will be taking back control of our borders. The very idea of a post-referendum settlement that will bargain that away is simply impossible in practice. There is 3 and a half years until the next GE. Post referendum the Leave Tories like Gove and Jonlhnson will be all powerful, able to bring Cameron down as soon as he tries to play dirty with them (the tight polls mean he already has to stop all thoughts of revenge kn them). Tory MPs will not risk deselect ion over the rights of Eastern Euripens to have unfettered access; they just won’t. Labour probably will…and Ukip must be on dreamland.

  15. Ironman’s right. If Leave were to win, nothing less than an immediate 2/3 cut in immigration would be politically acceptable.

    Because 99,999 is a magic number apparently

    Numbskulls

  16. So Much For Subtlety

    Ironman – “The biggest vote winner for Vote Leave has been and will be taking back control of our borders.”

    So you are claiming that the Leave Campaign are all racists?

    As you have claimed many times any demand for limiting immigration is racism.

  17. It’s been my position from day one that we will not be allowed to leave, regardless of the result of the vote.

    CLEAR VOTE OUT: Negotiations begin that will take an minimum of 2 years during which TBTB (who are all Remain) will fix the settlement or reverse the decision. It’s more likely that ‘events, Dear boy’ will intercede and the EU will itself collapse or morph into something stranger.

    NARROW VOTE OUT: See above, but with the Pro-Remain negotiators having an even stronger practical and moral whip-hand.

    NARROW VOTE IN: We stay, and the EU punish us mercilessly for our treachery.

    CLEAR VOTE IN: We carry on down the accelerating path to client state of the EU. End of the UK.

  18. SMFS

    You really are stupid prick. (I could of course just leave it tjere)

    I.am.a.leaver. I am, just likeep Michael Gove, non-racist who recognises that borders without controls are just pure idiocy. That is common sense. Hat is why immigration is the biggestate vote winner. That is why Cameron simply won’t answer the case be g made by Gove. That is why Labour and the unions pretend the EU is abouy workers rights (pretend g it has brought us peace simply didn’t work).

    So Cnservative MPs wI’ll not defy the referendum result and try to sign off an establisentry deal that doesn’t respond to the electorate’s primary demand. Labour MPs will happily do so; hence Ukip”s win:win referendum

    P.S. I haven’t put a figure on net immigration. But Cameron did: tens of thousands. He xan’t do it, never intended to…and won’t look us in the eye about it.

  19. It’s not too hard to imagine the UK staying in despite a narrow vote out, and this being acceptable to the electorate

    A great many voters are at least slightly undecided, and reform of the EU is surely inevitable.

    Should the EU morph back into the EEC, perhaps with 2 or 3 versions of the Euro, with borders restored and no more “ever closer by default”, we would likely see a big Remain win in a second referendum.

  20. The likely outcome of a vote leave win is a johnson/gove government. I find it hard to believe the tories would allow corbyn a vote of no confidence victory.

  21. Jack C

    “Should the EU morph back…”

    I take it you don’t live in Europe? The EU is headed in one direction only, unless democracy can slay the beast.

  22. A great many voters are at least slightly undecided, and reform of the EU is surely inevitable.

    There is no reform – Cameron tried to get minor changes and achieved nothing.

    The €uro doesn’t work because the economies of the member countries are so different.

    And for the same reason, you won’t get all 28 to agree to any change or reform.

    …unless we vote out of course…

  23. Jack C: not a chance – “ever closer union” is Article 1 of the Lisbon Treaty and all treaties before it.

    TITLE I
    COMMON PROVISIONS
    Article 1
    By this Treaty, the HIGH CONTRACTING PARTIES establish among themselves a EUROPEAN UNION, hereinafter called ’the Union’ on which the Member States confer competences to attain objectives they have in common.

    This Treaty marks a new stage in the process of creating an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe, in which decisions are taken as openly as possible and as
    closely as possible to the citizen.[Ha Ha Ha!]

    BTW as this is written into a treaty only a treaty can change it. This gives the lie to Cameron’s “legally binding and irreversible” deal. A lie told to the House of Commons and the people. Rat!

  24. “Cameron tried to get minor changes and achieved nothing.”

    You think he tried? Did he bollocks. He was prepared to accept anything, got virtually nothing, and that was still good enough to say ‘Hey, this is a great deal, everyone vote Remain!’.

    Put it this way – either Cameron was lying when he said that if he didn’t get the ‘right’ deal from the EU he’d be prepared to leave, or he’s lying now when he says leaving would basically bring about the Dark Ages. They can’t both be true (and most likely he was lying both times, he is after all a politician).

  25. So Much For Subtlety

    Ironman – “I.am.a.leaver. I am, just likeep Michael Gove, non-racist who recognises that borders without controls are just pure idiocy.”

    So you want an open door to people from Nigeria but none from Poland?

    Given, you know, your constant claims any restriction on immigration is racism.

    An interesting position I have to say.

  26. I think my point has been rather missed.

    I’ll be voting Brexit myself for one very narrow reason, which is Article 1. I find it entirely wrong that there can only be one direction, and it cannot work. The basically illegal Euro being the great example, the absolute-loyalty-or-no-pension corruption of EU employees being a lesser one, but a serious flaw nonetheless.

    We all know that the Euro cannot work without there being a single Eurozone state. Meanwhile, the damage is infecting Spain, the Netherlands, France, Greece, etc etc.

    Across the EU, the political momentum is behind reform. Neither do we need all 28 states to agree … serious reform will happen when France demands

    Brexit will be a huge boost to reform, and will likely make the UK a serious EU player.

  27. Gareth with a capital G

    Bloke In Cyprus said: “There is no reform – Cameron tried to get minor changes and achieved nothing.”

    Cameron’s negotiations were a sham, yes, but there is likely to be further integration for the Eurozone and the EU as a whole. It’s all been fleshed out out in the Treaty of Bozar written by the federalist Spinelli group.

    One of the things likely to change is the EU’s relationship with EFTA. The federalists are keen to have a two speed ‘europe’ in which there is the Eurozone surrounded by nations who want a looser arrangement. Former MEP and federalist Andrew Duff has suggested the plan is designed to be attractive to EFTA nations.

    I think we’ll get something like Associate Membership whether we vote Leave or Remain.

  28. A note of creeping desperation in your posts Stevie-boy.

    Brexit or no–the EU will die and we need now to making full lists of all its friends and supporters everywhere. The SS managed to destroy their records–lets make sure the EUSSR isn’t so lucky.

  29. SMFS

    I say: “…non-racist who recognises that borders without controls are just pure idiocy. That is common sense.”
    To which you reply: “So you want an open door to people from Nigeria but none from Poland?”

    With every comment you prove what a fucking cretin you are.

  30. Jack C

    We may have missed your point. I feel though you have also missed our point.

    If Leave wins and if the primary (not the only) concern of Leavers is border control, then no agreement that doesn’t explicitly address this is going to wash.

  31. Ironman,
    That’s why I said “with borders restored”.

    Immigration controls should be a no-brainer. Few would disagree that zero is too few, a million a month too many. This is just common sense, and nothing to do with xenophobia, racism or an unsophisticated failure to appreciate Tuscany.

    On this, many in Remain seem determined to insult their way to victory, It’s a mistake.

  32. So Much For Subtlety

    Ironman – “With every comment you prove what a fucking cretin you are.”

    Well that may well be true. On the other hand you have repeatedly stated that any restriction on Third World immigration to Britain is racism. And that any objection to the consequences of that Third World immigration – such as the gang rapes in places like Rotherham – are racism.

    So I am curious – you are now claiming to want border controls. Why? To what purpose? To count the billions you want to come here?

    Can you explain what your non-racist immigration policy would look like in an ideal world?

  33. So Much For Subtlety

    Jack C – “Immigration controls should be a no-brainer. Few would disagree that zero is too few”

    Zero is too many. There is no sane case otherwise.

  34. Re the SMfS (Thick.Racist.Prick.) RustyBollocks spat;

    Border controls have to be discriminatory & absolute. Or they’re not border controls.
    But there’s no appetite whatsoever amongst those who would style themselves “right thinking people” for those sort of border controls. Hell, even those who’ve done an illegal end-run around whatever meagre controls currently exist are deemed to have full citizen’s rights.
    Ain’t gonna happen unless those RTP’s claws are prised loose from control. Inside or outside the EU

  35. SMFS,
    There are several sane arguments for some immigration, often involving world trade, food and demographics.

    Britain is intimately connected to nations all over the world, and created a number of them. I don’t believe Britain can never benefit from outside influences.

  36. Here are the long and short term impacts of leaving the EU

    Short Term
    Economic collapse, run on the pound the British economy hits the buffers as the banking and financial sectors are ripped to shreds.
    The Right wing take over the UK and decide the look for scapegoat, many are targeted Jews, Gays, Gypsies, muslims and all immigrants. The collapse of house prices and the financial sector is blamed on the weak and vulnerable and Britain quickly becomes a fascist state.

  37. Nina – brilliant!

    Where have you been hiding?

    Somewhere in the Fourth Reich apparently.

    It is exactly this sort of bollocks catastrophism that has so annoyed people.

    BRExit will cause fire and brimstone to come down from the skies! Rivers and seas boiling! Forty years of darkness! Earthquakes, volcanoes, the dead rising from the grave! Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together… mass hysteria!

    No. If “Leave” wins (and I pray it does), then there will be 2 years of rather dull technical negotiations as per Lisbon and after those 2 years we will leave with a transition plan (albeit somewhat cobbled together)

    There may be an attempt at a second referendum with negotiated terms, but as others have said, negotiating with a 28 member body is just impossible.

    There are enough members who want even faster integration (Belgium and Spain) and see getting rid of the UK as a way of achieving that. The Germans don’t want the UK to go as they will have to pay they bill that the UK leaves behind.

    The EU is a 1930’s solution to a 1950’s problem, it has no place in the modern world.

  38. Nina

    Excellent!

    If Steve Dot had written that, he’d have meant it…

    Odd thing is that, on this thread (in my browser) the “long term” paragraph (WW3 etc) doesn’t show up at all, but on the “recent comments” page, it does?

  39. Britain quickly becomes a fascist state

    Certainly not. The British don’t take anything or anyone seriously enough for this to happen, and we don’t have the required dress sense.

    There may be another attempt from the left, a Mosley 2 in other words,.but I can’t see the Corbynistas in footer bags.

    I like the idea of lower house prices though.

  40. It’s worth reading Burke’s Bristol speech again, guys.
    Your MP is not your delegate, but your representative. (Or in Johnsonian terms, he’s your agent, not your instrument.)
    So MPs would be quite within their rights to offer their ha’porth to the exit negotiations. Insofar as europhiles could help get a better exit deal – bring it on.

    It would be a brave MP who denied the will of the people, even if his own constituency was solid Remain. Burke again: on election he is not the Member for Bristol, he is a member of Parliament.

  41. bif,
    Any news from France? There seems to be something of a blackout, save for snippets on American websites.

    The BBC is ignoring it.

  42. Typical bbc FUD and strawman.

    Nobody is proposing that we leave the single market.

    The idea is to leave the EU while retaining access to the single market.

    But they know that really; they just don’t want the mass of ordinary voters to understand it.

  43. SMFS

    “On the other hand you have repeatedly stated that any restriction on Third World immigration to Britain is racism. And that any objection to the consequences of that Third World immigration – such as the gang rapes in places like Rotherham – are racism”

    This is so easy: No I haven’t.

    I do see that believing Rotherham is the consequence of 3rd World immigration as opposed to the obvious other explanations is symptomatic of being a Thick.Racist.Prick.

  44. Jack
    Nothing much new. Just the usual flash floods, plagues of frogs, strikes, etc.
    It’s almost like they’ve left the EU already.
    WW3 seems to be confined in the left and right wing container vessels, so that’s good news.
    Politicians hate their friends more than their enemies. But you knew that already.

    Oh, and my little girl’s got another gymnastics medal. Only silver this time.

  45. This whole problem was discussed after the 1975 Referendum but it was all moot because of the voting. The problem is one of Constitutional Law. A Referendum result can have no direct effect insofar it was implemented by legislation. Neither the Queen in Parliament nor the individual members of each House can be constitutionally constrained to follow the view of the electorate. What their moral obligations are as individuals and elected persons is another matter.

    Other problem areas include ministerial responsibility. Should collective responsibility operate or be suspended on the subject of the referendum? One way around this would have been for the Government simply to undertake the policies implied by the result of the vote. But as far as I know, the Government has not said anything of the kind.

    It is a legal mess and perhaps only to be expected of the current Government. Perhaps they have been counting on the greyness and ambiguities to help them cling onto power whatever happens.

  46. If the “Leave” side wins the Referendum and Cameron ignores it, it will be electoral suicide.

  47. He doesn’t have to ignore it. He could put a resolution to the Commons and see what happens? If the figures quoted above are at all accurate, our elected representatives are mainly in favour of remaining. No doubt there will be some principled exceptions who will take the referendum results into account but those are the facts. The next GM is in 2 years’ time. Plenty of time to kick things into the long grass and hasn’t Cameron already said he is not going to stay on in politics? The referendum is so worded and the procedures involved in BREXIT so tortuous, that it would only take a bit of pretence at action to appease people. Are they going to riot?

  48. @Diogenes: it was 4 and a half years from Black Wednesday to the day Labour won on 1997, but the electorate didn’t forget the sight of the shambles of a government running around like headless chickens making up economic policy on the hoof because events had made their old policy untenable. And if Cameron thinks he can ignore a Leave vote and the public will ‘forget’ it, he (or his successor) will get a sharp reminder come May 2020.

    I’d put money on the the Tories being wiped out, by a combination of UKIP winning seats direct, and Labour and the Lib Dems winning seats because the Tory vote halved to UKIP.

    People won’t forget that sort of duplicity.

  49. Jim,
    If Labour and the Lib Dems vote against the government on this, the government would lose by some margin.

    If they support the government, they would also be wiped out.

  50. Bloke in Germany

    Well, do the Brexiteers want to be governed by their elected members or not? I thought that was the core of the argument – people elected by “us” get the say and people not elected by “us” don’t. Though why someone in Brighton would care to be governed bt the honourable member for John O’Groats (or vice-versa) is equally a mystery.

  51. The problem with demanding that “Leave” declare what post-exit model will be is that “Leave”, just as “Remain”, is a cross-party cross-political movement. A post-exit Corbyn Labour government would build a completely different model to a post-exit Osbourn Conservative government. Leaving the EU gives future govenment /options/ that don’t exist now. Having those options does not force you to use them, or force you to pick a particular one. Giving David Cameron a gun gives hinm the /option/ of blowing his brains out, it does not /force/ him to blow his brains out.

  52. Off topic slightly, for those who ask for news from France.

    Dunno where who can get it, but it’s available even here in darkest Tejas: TV5 Monde. Lookout http://www.tv5monde.com

    You too can thrill at the sight of the small but imperfectly-formed president of France saying absolutely nothing of substance in his strangely punctuated sentences (a gap after every three-five words, whether it makes any sense or not).

    Yep. Floods, mostly, at the moment. The strike coverage has quieted down with the floods, but is probably on the uptick.

  53. @Steve.

    No. If the UK votes Leave, what are they voting for? Norway? Canada, Pitcairn Island?

    The HoC will then have to decide which model they want. Seeing as 75% of MPs are for Remain, the likelihood is they will chose Norway: paying as much in, adopting the rules without input, freedom of movement.

    Brexiteers need to be honest with themselves about this

    We are being honest. No-one knows how things will end up if we leave, or if we stay. Your side is the dishonest one for constantly requiring of us something (certainty of the future) which you know is impossible and which you do not require of your own side.

    My reasons for voting out will be, in this order:

    1. The right to take part in the (admittedly imperfect) process of electing and removing those who make the laws under which I live. The idea that many of my fellow countrymen are happy to give away this right is literally astonishing.

    2. Getting as far away from the impending car crash that is the Euro, and the slow growth EU generally, as possible. We will be affected come what may, but it will be worse if we’re part of the EU.

    3. The borders. No-one sensible is suggesting a figure – whether it’s Cameron’s absurd ‘tens of thousands’, or one, or one million, the number of immigrants (which should be set by employers requiring people) is not the issue; the issue is people having the essentially unfettered right to come in and remain without a job. If you’re a Bangladeshi curry chef, or a Syrian doctor, or an Aussie engineer you should be treated the same way. Do we need you? Are you qualified? If you answer ‘yes’ to both then fine, you can come in and stay as long as you have a job. If you lose or leave your job, you go home.

  54. “Though why someone in Brighton would care to be governed bt the honourable member for John O’Groats (or vice-versa) is equally a mystery.”

    Extremes of geography in that case, but in principle – demos.

  55. It is not immigration. The West is being invaded. The powers that be tip their hats to the invaders.

  56. Biggie–our “leaders” are treasonous scum–none more so than your own dear Fat Cow. That is also one of the points of Brexit–to help break up the pan-European–increasingly pan-world–glee club of CM infused “elite” shite who are dragging us all down.

  57. Can it be electoral suicide if all the other major parties MP’s do the same thing, the question is if it would generate enough anger to turn the country over to a small player like UKIP

  58. “Can it be electoral suicide if all the other major parties MP’s do the same thing”

    Yes, because rightly or wrongly, the EU referendum is a Tory thing. They are the government at the time of the referendum, if they connive (regardless of who with) to thwart the will of the people then they and they alone will get the order of the boot from the public. Labour and the Lib Dems were just as (if not more so) in favour of the ERM, and bore just as much moral responsibility for that policy, and its subsequent utter failure, but they didn’t get blamed when it went tits up, and they won’t if a Tory government ignores a Leave vote.

  59. So Much For Subtlety

    Jack C – “There are several sane arguments for some immigration, often involving world trade, food and demographics.”

    No there aren’t. We do not need Third World peasants just out of the Stone Age to trade with the world. In fact we don’t need any immigration at all. Britain has been doing it quite well for some time without any immigration. Nor is there a sane demographic reason. Replacement of the indigenous population is suicide. Food? Not an argument worth the rape of a single 12 year old.

    “Britain is intimately connected to nations all over the world, and created a number of them. I don’t believe Britain can never benefit from outside influences.”

    That is a separate argument. It may be possible that Britain can benefit from outside influences. It is not now benefiting from them. Which is a different issue to immigration.

    The only sane immigration level is zero or less.

  60. So Much For Subtlety

    Ironman – “This is so easy: No I haven’t.”

    Hey, if you want to rewrite your history and pretend you have supported something more sane all this time, it is fine by me. As they probably didn’t teach you in SJW School, the Lord rejoices in the return of the wandering sheep and all that.

    “I do see that believing Rotherham is the consequence of 3rd World immigration as opposed to the obvious other explanations is symptomatic of being a Thick.Racist.Prick.”

    Well anyone who assumes blaming anything but Thatcher is a racist is not going to get far. What other “obvious” other explanations? You know, apart from allowing a bunch of illiterate Third World goat herders with Stone Age attitudes to women, especially White women, into the country. It is amazing you think anything else is to blame when the rapists themselves have been very clear about why they did it – and it wasn’t Thatcher that made them do it.

    But I guess SJWs have to SJW.

  61. “The only sane immigration level is zero or less.”

    Other thread – ex pats versus immigrants? Hence, no, not really?

    Unless “outside influences” is a euphemism…

  62. So Much For Subtlety

    Nina Leg – “The Right wing take over the UK and decide the look for scapegoat, many are targeted Jews, Gays, Gypsies, muslims and all immigrants. The collapse of house prices and the financial sector is blamed on the weak and vulnerable and Britain quickly becomes a fascist state.”

    So you’re saying it is not all bad, right?

    PF – “Other thread – ex pats versus immigrants? Hence, no, not really? Unless “outside influences” is a euphemism…”

    In theory the odd ex-pat is not a problem as long as they hear the call of their home and take the road back to Mandalay. Or wherever. As the Germans have found, as we know only too well, people don’t do that. They come temporarily. They b!tch like hell about the weather and the locals and the “racism”. But they never go home.

    So we ought to have a zero or lower level for ex-pats too. Perhaps they could pay an ex-pat tax which rises each and every year they are in the UK.

    Residence in the UK ought to be only for people with four UK grandparents.

  63. “Residence in the UK ought to be only for people with four UK grandparents.”

    Intriguing. Mum and Dad could be “legit” UK nationals / residents but not their kids! (It was Mum’s dad what done it……)

    “Ex-pats…”

    Difficult to know where to start. Actually, I’m not even going to try..:)

  64. A proper thread, this.

    I’m a remainer simply because of the potential benefits. The spokespeople who are the media-face for coming out are all staunch individualists. Everybody and their cat knows that that ideal doesn’t work in the slightest.

    Except for Mr Ecks, who is some sort of comic book villain. The comic being the Beano.

    The thinking that leaving the EU will mean less state control and less red tape is a nonsense.There will be significant increase in regulations and deals, a claim still repeated by Govey Johnson, and the epitome of small-man syndrome, Farage.

    And yet, wankers like SMBS still reckon that sexual abuse is a product of islamic immigrants.I’m guessing you were force fed that idea before you could learn to read.

    But I have to agree that both sides of thid argument have behaved like [email protected] Proper LCD.

    I want a remain win to stymie Johnson, but I also want an out to fuck Cameron and Osborne.

  65. Still waiting for the evidence that non-EU Norway, Switzerland, Iceland, Isle of Man etc are schitholes.

  66. “Intriguing. Mum and Dad could be “legit” UK nationals / residents but not their kids! (It was Mum’s dad what done it……)”

    Exactly, I’d be ok but my Canadian born father and therefore my son would be kicked out to… where….?

  67. Residence in the UK ought to be only for people with four UK grandparents
    So my father, brother, sisters and I would be off to sunnier climes. My (dependent) mother and various children would be left behind. We could tax anyone who approves of this policy to pay for their care. If they’re not too thick to have any significant income, which I doubt.

  68. When the UK leaves the EU, and the economy collapses, with a collapse in house prices, the financial sector, a run on the pound and resulting economic chaos, will the right wing extremist nationalists accept their responsibility for destroying the UK economy or will they blame the jews, the gays, the gypsies, the Scots, the Welsh, the immigrants, the Africans, the disabled, the weak, the vulnerable?
    I bet i know the answer.

  69. When the UK leaves the EU, and the economy does perfectly OK, maybe even quite well, will all you socialists piss off somewhere else more suitable to your political outlook, Venezuela perhaps, and stop stealing the money off the rest of us?

    No, didn’t think so.

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