Fascinating stuff

One of the key messages I wanted to get across in the Bundestag on Monday, and definitely succeeded in delivering, is that country-by-country reporting (CBCR) does not deliver tax data. What it delivers is accounting information.

So it’s valueless in determining whether a company is paying the right tax, at the right time, in the right place, then?

55 thoughts on “Fascinating stuff”

  1. “This morning I had another talk with the German Chancellor…., and here is the paper which bears [her] name upon it as well as mine.”

  2. The Meissen Bison

    “…definitely succeeded in delivering, is that country-by-country reporting (CBCR) does not deliver tax data…”

    Well, looking at the Bundestag report of the meeting with Murphy’s reported contribution in bold:

    Meinzner bezifferte den Verlust durch Unternehmenssteuervermeidung in Entwicklungsländern auf sechs bis 13 Prozent der Steuereinnahmen. Dagegen liege der Verlust der OECD-Länder bei zwei bis drei Prozent. Richard Murphy (Tax Resarch LLP) bezifferte den Verlust der Entwicklungsländer auf 100 bis 200 Milliarden Euro im Jahr. Auch David Nguyen-Thanh (Deutsche Gesellschaft für internationale Zusammenarbeit) sagte, den Entwicklungsländern würden durch illegale Steuerpraktiken wichtige Einnahmen für die nachhaltige Entwicklung und den Aufbau eines leistungsfähigen Staates entgehen.

    it rather looks as though the meeting received less than he delivered. Richard Murphy, they report, estimates the (tax) loss to developing countries at between €100 and 200 billion.

    Maybe he’ll try delivering country by country reporting on the next working day or drop a card through the Bundestag’s door.

  3. Off topic, but this from part-time Anglican divine Andrew “Billericay” Dickie on Richie’s blog:

    “Andrew Dickie says:
    June 22 2016 at 10:23 am
    Ian S – I couldn’t agree more with you concerning NATO, which, for my money, is an organisation WAY past its shelf life, which should be wound up and disbanded, its sole current purpose seeming to be the encirclement of Russia, with a view to at least neutralising it, and probably breaking it up, in the interests of US hegemony.

    Those who say Russia is threatening Eastern Europe need to look at the facts, as trenchantly set out in this clip by a politician for whom I usually have no time, Zhirinovsky:

    https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1205470182819675&id=100000701140263&comment_id=1205945156105511&notif_t=group_comment&notif_id=1466515346944891&ref=m_notif

    What Zhirinovsky says is very ad rem, especially in view of the fact that the West has broken ALL the promises made to Gorbachev, when he agreed to German reunification, and have placed threatening forces in almost all the old Warsaw Pact countries.

    The American mainland, of course, was last invaded in 1812 (by us Brits), but Russia has been invaded every century since the 13th, by Tatars (13th – early 16th), Poles and Lithuanians (late 16th-early 17th), Swedes (late 17th -early 18th), French (early 19th), every Western nation in the 1920’s, Germany in the 1940’s, and has ALWAYS – at immense cost in blood (at least 22 million dead on WW2) treasure – prevailed.

    My bets are on Russia in alliance with China, and the hope that America will abandon is misguided doctrine of “American exceptionalism” (a doctrine a mere hairsbreadth away from the racial superiority doctrine found in Fascism), and learn truly to live within a multipolar world, and truly to practise its ideals of freedom and real support of freedom for others, abjuring such clear attempts in the other direction as support for the Brazilian coup, for the neo-liberal cause in Argentina, Ecuador, Venezuela, Paraguay, and show remorse for having ejected the moderate Socialist regime of President Zelaya in Honduras in 2009, replacing it with the usual, murderous gang of cutthroat Rightwing elitists. Shame on America for such antidemocratic behaviour (nb: the guiding hand behind that coup was one Hillary Clinton!)”

  4. Andrew K.

    LOL on the Billericay Dickie – I shall steal that!

    For more Ian Dury refs, the top team commentariat at TRUK are a mix of Arseholes, Bastards, Fucking Cunts and Pricks, followed by the Tier 2 Clevor Trevers

  5. Andrew K

    Well done for Billericay Dickie, I shall steal that.

    For more Ian Dury refs the Top team commentariat at TRUK are a bunch of Arseholes, Bastards, Fucking Cunts and Pricks.

    The Tier Two commentariat being the Clevor Trevers

  6. In true Leftist style, Dickie wants to abolish one of the very few international organisations which actually works.

  7. The Meissen Bison

    “BASF shot itself in the foot at this hearing. I think everyone knew it.

    Well, perhaps not quite everyone. My translation from the same Bundestag source as above:

    In this connection, committe members asked about publication of tax data of international buisinesses which would quantify profits in different countries and how these were taxed. Wolfgang Haas (BASF [General Counsel and President of Tax (Wikipedia)]) was not in favour of publishing this data because he could see no useful purpose in publication. The tax authorities had these data. A problem in this regard was with countries like the US that would decline an obligation to publish.

    Prof Eckehart Reimer (Prof of Tax [Yes! A real one! 100%] at Heidelberg) said that these data were legally protected. He also pointed to the US authorities which, for example, enjoyed access though the FACTA Agreement to a lot of data from other countries but delivered nothing in return.

    No self-harming by BASF of its feet with a firearm, I’d say.

  8. Dickie: “a doctrine a mere hairsbreadth away from the racial superiority doctrine found in Fascism”

    Erm… isn’t it National Socialism that has that doctrine, rather than Fascism?

    I’m guessing he’s another one of those folks to whom a fascist is simply anyone he disagrees with.

  9. This from TRUK:

    But QCs do not see the world the way academics do

    “In fact most will have no clue of how an academic does see the world

    Rather like accountants and academics

    I happen to be a practitioner and academic”

    Sweet Jesus.

  10. Not sure about the awarding of “Billericay” Dickie, there, AW.
    The BD of the lyrics was a “proper geezer”, in the parlance. About as likely to hang around with the nonces of TJUK as sign up for a “safe spaces” initiative at the U of E.

  11. Lizardking – he is a practitioner in tax but an academic in political economy – is he saying only academics in tax speak to the truth, and he has ‘other skills’?

    He is on dodgy ground saying QCs aren’t experts. If law professors are gold medal winners in the heavyweight boxing at the Olympics, QCs are Mike Tyson. In another league – frighteningly intelligent. This is why they get picked to be judges and law professors do not as much.

    I wonder what his boy-rival Jolyon Maugham thinks about this?

  12. @ Andrew Dickie
    Russia lost to Estonia in 1920.
    It invaded Lithuania (NOT was invaded by it) in the 16th Century.
    It was conquered by the Mongols in the earlier centuries of the last millennium. “Muscovy remained a tributary to the Golden Horde (under the “Tatar Yoke”) until 1480.” ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Duchy_of_Moscow )
    The Alamo was in 1836, so the Mexicans invaded the continental USA *22* years after we did – the USA declared war on Britain in 1812 and invaded Canada, receiving a well-deserved blooody nose from the Canadians, but Britain couldn’t spare any resources to invade the USA until after 1814.
    Still, one mustn’t expect any facts on Murphy’s website.

  13. Bloke in Costa Rica

    If you are quoting Zhirinovsky approvingly about anything except the correct manner to bludgeon a pro-democracy protester you’re probably not quite understanding the situation. He is someone that, were a mischievous prankster to take out his limo with an RPG-29, would not be much missed.

  14. @ Adrian
    “QCs are Mike Tyson. In another league – frighteningly intelligent. ”
    Certainly some of them are. One of the boys with whom I was at school is now a judge after being a QC and he was probably the most intelligent boy I ever met (the only contender got, to our general disappointment, an Exhibition in Maths to Trinity Cambridge after attending, on a scholarship of course, a minor Public school whose maths teachers struggled to keep up with him).

  15. Adrian, I think it’s stretching the definition of Tax Practitoner and Academic in the case of Richard “Dunning Kruger” Murphy.

  16. @ TMB
    Thank you for taking the trouble to translate for those like me who lack a facility for language. Badische pointed out what everyone should know – all countries (except Somalia and Bermuda) collect data on taxable income.
    If country-by-country reporting increases the tax take it will only be at the expense of corrupt tax inspectors (the increased cost will reduce the taxable profits of the multinationals and hence will reduce tax by roughly the amount that they pay to the tax inspectors because the tax inspectors will increase their demands until it hits that level).

  17. @ Chris
    That depends on your definitions – Texas had declared independence from Mexico and “Continental USA” as currently defined includes Texas. If you don’t accept the Texan declaration of independence, do you accept 1776? But the British and Canadian invasion was certainly 1814 not 1812.

  18. The Meissen Bison

    john77 – Not a bit. I thought it would be interesting and fun to see if the minute of the meeting corroborated even slightly the puffed-up account that Murphy gave of his own overblown contribution.

  19. The Meissen Bison

    This link is not for the faint-hearted but 51 minutes into this Bundestag Video will make you weep hot salty tears for the poor woman doing the simultaneous translation of the great man’s gabbling.

  20. Andrew K

    That’s priceless – Dickie is just extraordinary. And reading the guy’s Linkedin Profile is even more so (and I am 90% sure this is the Andrew Dickie in question due to us having a mutual acquaintance) – apparently a Lay Reader and Trained Barrister – his links with the Soviet Union seem so blatant a tip off to MI5 would seem to be in order. Simply incredible that anyone like this still exists in this day and age…..

  21. One of the key messages I wanted to get across in the Bundestag on Monday, and definitely succeeded in delivering, is that country-by-country reporting (CBCR) does not deliver tax data. What it delivers is accounting information.

    I’ve been reading that sorry motherfucker for close on ten years now and that’s the first pronouncement on tax he’s ever managed to get right. It’s also the first pronouncement on accounting he’s ever got right.

    Batten the hatches, kids, the end of days is upon us.

  22. VP

    Oh, a TRAINED barrister, eh?

    So much better than the monkeys who litter the pavement outside The George.

    Quality bloke then.

  23. One wonders if Professor Murphy has invested in a mortar board and gown to add gravitas to his public appearances. Purple or dark green would be good, trimmed with stoat fur.Or maybe just a badge with “academic” on it in Comic Sans. Perhaps he could design himself a special horsehair wig for accountants.

  24. VP

    I haven’t got LinkedIn and would love to know what the dick’s links to the Soviet Union are.

    But agent? Nah, they tended not to use the completely transparent clowns; unless he’s been playing the cleverest double-bluff in history.

  25. “But agent? Nah, they tended not to use the completely transparent clowns; unless he’s been playing the cleverest double-bluff in history.”

    Yes, someone who goes around yelling “i fuckng love communism, me” would be unlikely to gain access to the most sensitive areas of the British state.

  26. “That depends on your definitions – Texas had declared independence from Mexico and “Continental USA” as currently defined includes Texas”

    On that rather bonkers view England first invaded the continental USA in 1579.

  27. @ dearieme
    Er, the USA didn’t exist in 1579, but that is totally irrelevant when the subject is the LAST invasion of Continental USA which was NOT 1812.

  28. @Adrian: Murphy is a practitioner in general accounting, not tax. Nobody in their right mind would ask him for a tax opinion.

  29. Van_Patten often makes the claim that he knows a friend of a friend that knows about whoever is being talked about. You must move in mysterious circles, Van.

    Anyhoo, who’s voting tomorrow?

  30. Any trained barrister who thus styles himself never practised. He’s just another bloke who spent thousands at Bar School for no practical porpoise.

    Mind you, there are plenty of your actual, real barristers who – like me – sleep every night on the pavement outside The George.

    And while I’m on this hobbyhorse, what’s the frotting difference between a trained and an untrained barrister? I mean, why would you add the word “trained”?

  31. Actually I’m surprised that Timothy hasn’t created a thread to do a straw poll. After all, it would seem that it’s the most important decision that our two generations could make.

    Who can vote tomorrow amongst you ex-pats?

    I can.

    Come on, Timothy, let’s see where we all stand.

    Are you encouraging others to be cowards on your blog? Probably. No integrity.

  32. That’s one of you regulars, Mr Lud. I’m hoping everyone that posts here bitching about the subject exercises their freedom to vote.

    I’m pretty sure Ecks will crawl out of his Anderson shelter to dip his forefinger in blue ink to prove his devotion to the cause.

    Are you voting, Timothy Worstall?

  33. Arnald, most of the assebled comnentariat within these walls will be a phalanx of Thermopyleanan Brexiters. But im trying not to get my hopes up. Ive been proud of my country only two or three times in the last three decades.

    Very well then, alone. But will we do it?

  34. Yawn, SE. I’m English, I have the passport, the residence.

    Do you really think I’d be bothering to ask otherwise?

    I’m genuinely interested. There’s so much exit rhetoric on this blog that I thought it would be interesting to see if people are actually qualified to vote.

    I’m hardly being confrontational. You’re a bunch of intelligent hims and hers (apart from Daily Sport Ecks). and it’s only rational to think that commentators here wouldn’t bother hiding their situations or intentions.

  35. The Meissen Bison

    Arnster: Do you really think I’d be bothering to ask otherwise?

    It’s because you say you’re genuinely interested that I shouldn’t dream of getting you over-excited by answering.

    Just concentrate on the toms and stay calm.

  36. I don’t doubt that, EdLud, and I do honestly believe that there is a case against EU membership – for some of the reasons aired here. Only some, though, not quite enough, but understood.

    But childishness aside, let’s get some cards on the table. Who can vote? And because I comment elsewhere where the same question is being asked, I wanted to add a poll from here to a very amateur ‘poll of polls’.

    Many “SJWs” and “leftists” that blog their gobs out are very “Brexit”, at least the ones I know. It’s far less a left/right issue than that the MSM seem to portray. I guess you know that anyway.

    I’m ‘Remain’ because it would be easier to come out in the future than to try and get back in when it suits us.

    The EU is a young project. I believe it needs more time to find its equilibrium.

  37. TMB

    *Sigh*

    I can only infer from that response that you can’t vote and that you’re embarrassed by your opinion.

    I’ll mark that in the appropriate place in my spreadsheet. 🙂

  38. @Lawrence

    Spreadsheet?

    Surely you’ll be doing a Venn diagram? You can add it to the next secret not for publication message you send the Murphaloon.

  39. The Meissen Bison

    Arnie, sweetness, you’re inured to embarrassment by your own opinions so it’s considerate to impute that quality you lack to others.

    Where are these other places that we could find you commenting and conducting your polls? Is there an anti-Macron Blog you follow?

    Vive Le Guernesey Libre! Pays des Tomates!

  40. Well I’ll give The Arnold my tuppenny-ha’penny-worth: I’ve been away from England for more than thirty years so no, I don’t vote there. But, I don’t give a shit which way it goes. Awright son?

  41. Bloke in Costa Rica

    I’ve been out of the UK too long to vote. But I want Leave to win. This is not an inconsistent viewpoint. I can’t vote in the US Presidential election either, but that doesn’t mean I’m indifferent about the outcome.

  42. “And while I’m on this hobbyhorse, what’s the frotting difference between a trained and an untrained barrister? I mean, why would you add the word “trained”?”

    I think the key thing here is that when typing his LinkedIn profile his auto correct changed barista to barrister.

  43. Ironman

    Given the guy’s age according to Linkedin and the fact he’s still spouting paeans to the Soviet Union it’s fairly clear they would have had him pegged as someone who could be useful – but as you and Rob rightly point out, someone so flagrantly pro-communist would be an ‘agent of influence’ (i.e a fellow traveller) rather than a Philby/Blunt type Agent (someone used to obtain secret intelligence) – still technically could merit a treason charge, though.

    Edward Lud

    The guy is self-evidently a ‘True Believer’ – I’d hazard he was constantly marching against something during the Thatcher era – probably turned up at Greenham Common a few times. I’ve seen/met countless people of his ilk – disturbed individuals who cannot understand why people don’t share their innately superior understanding of the world.

    Larry my old son – a close acquaintance of mine knows Murphy well – he was linked on the site to that Andrew Dickie hence why I was able to find his profile – Regarding Murphy I have never met the man myself although said acquaintance did offer to get me a signed copy of ‘The Courageous State’ as an Xmas present (sadly his time did not permit so I go an unsigned copy instead) – my acquaintance has worked with him in the past and I think even went to Downham Market a couple of times – mysterious circles indeed

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