Sven Giegold’s plans for Europe

Looks like we got out just in time. Via email, Sven Giegold:

Now we have to realize Hill?s idea of a capital markets union without
him. The Euro needs a deeper integrated capital market so that the
costs of economic shocks are distributed more widely. To this end we
need to harmonize insolvency, civil proceedings, contract and tax law.

68 thoughts on “Sven Giegold’s plans for Europe”

  1. I giggled at this part;

    “Almost all parts of the Labour movement have reason to resist this: for the Blairites it holds the danger that Corbyn will become PM ”

    the great fair of Blairites is that Corbyn can never become PM…

  2. Slightly OT, but would someone remind me exactly how Sturgeon is ‘negotiating’ with the EU to remain, not being a delegate country and all?

  3. The Euro needs a deeper integrated capital market so that the costs of economic shocks are distributed more widely.

    Yeah, I’m sure Angela and the rest are gonna hop right on that…

  4. The Inimitable Steve

    Paul Mason sez: “Above all we need to provide certainty and solidarity to the millions of EU migrants who feel like the Brits threw them under a bus this week.”

    Eh, no. No, we don’t.

  5. They have the certainty and solidarity of knowing they will be going back home long before they get in here.

    Germany is going to be very crowded.

  6. ‘In the progressive half of British politics’

    Begging the question fallacy? Has it been established that progressives have half?

  7. @PeteB: I have a feeling what DH has articulated is what we’ll end up with. Being part of the Single Market, free movement of people, but migrants don’t get to be de facto UK citizens – ie if you move to the UK for work you don’t get the same rights and benefits as UK citizens. No free NHS, no free education, no welfare, no voting rights. Come to the UK and work if you want, but pay your own way. This would put a floor immediately on the level of people who would want to come here – the highly skilled (and therefore well paid) would still want to come, as they could afford the private insurances required, the low skilled would be largely put off because much of the draw of the UK is the ‘free stuff’ that citizens get (which is not just cash, but services people have to pay for in poorer countries).

  8. @PeteB: that article doesn’t say anything about restricting immigrants use of UK services. And it does say that immigrants pay in more than they take out of education and healthcare, which I’ve never seen any evidence for. The big report that came out in 2014 was specifically about tax and welfare payments, it didn’t include education or healthcare costs.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/nov/05/eu-migrants-uk-gains-20bn-ucl-study

    Its noticeable even on those figures that EU migrants from the ‘old’ EU countries (France/Germany/Italy/Spain etc) have contributed three quarters of the net tax revenue gain, indicating they are largely higher skilled and better paid migrants, whereas the millions of Eastern European migrants have contributed only a quarter of the net tax revenue gain, indicating that for many of them the net contribution is negative.

  9. Jim

    I guess many low paid jobs pay little tax nowadays with the higher personal limits

    Wouldn’t you need to include the economic impact and tax from the businesses that employ these migrants ? I guess quite a few would not be able to attract UK workers if their was no migrant workers?

  10. North is fulminating on his blog.

    He is an ego-man but in fairness a meticulous researcher and very well informed. Unfortunately he is an arch-statist who thinks the world of bullshit government treaties. He is correct that a lot of crap increasingly comes from the UN and scummy treaties negotiated by co-operating gangs of political filth at the worldwide level rather than just the EU. That is a matter which will need to be addressed in future.

    I agree with his assessment that we can’t trust Johnson. Blojo wants No 10. And is quite capable of selling us back to the EU–in fact if not in name– if he sees advantage to himself.

    Hannan and Carswell are already running their gobs off about not ending unrestricted migration.

    We need to be very careful now. The battle for freedom is just beginning.

  11. “Wouldn’t you need to include the economic impact and tax from the businesses that employ these migrants ? I guess quite a few would not be able to attract UK workers if their was no migrant workers?”

    Well yes, but then what about that if the migrant labour wasn’t there wages would have to rise to attract staff, and thus draw more natives out of the benefits system, reducing government spending and increasing tax revenues?

    I mean are we saying that a business that can only exist because we import cheap labour should continue regardless of the other impacts of bringing in that labour?

    The trouble is that its a dynamic system which achieves an equilibrium on the given inputs, but we are putting our finger on the scales by allowing unlimited labour into the system, thus the current equilibrium is a false one. Its only sustainable as long as the cheap labour input continues.

  12. bloke (temporarily not) in spain

    “The trouble is that its a dynamic system which achieves an equilibrium on the given inputs, but we are putting our finger on the scales by allowing unlimited labour into the system, thus the current equilibrium is a false one.”

    And we know, through experience, that although migrants will come in & work cheaply, their children are reluctant to accept the same sort of jobs as their parents. So we’re just building on another generation of unemployed, disaffected youth requiring the productivity of yet another wave of migrants to keep them in benefits.

  13. I dont usually swear in argument, but there’s an awful lof of “fuck off” in all this. And no one says “fuck off” like a Brit. Not even an Aussie.

    I didnt think we had it in us anymore. I was wrong. And I could not be more proud or delighted.

    Good luck to the other tribute nations.

  14. Looking forward to the howls of joy as Lud and Ecks go to the shops on Monday and buy all those things not allowed by the nasty EU – incandescent light-bulbs, straight bananas, bendy cucumbers… All those things that made Britain great.

  15. “And we know, through experience, that although migrants will come in & work cheaply, their children are reluctant to accept the same sort of jobs as their parents. So we’re just building on another generation of unemployed, disaffected youth requiring the productivity of yet another wave of migrants to keep them in benefits.”

    Correct, this is the cycle that California is in…bring in migrants to do The Jobs Americans Won’t Do (At The Price Agribusiness Wants To Pay), then bring in more migrants when the children of the the previous wave of migrants don’t want to work the fields for a few bucks an hour. Result is that 8 of the 10 worst metro area unemployment rates in the US are in agricultural areas of California.

    http://www.bls.gov/web/metro/laummtrk.htm

  16. Ecks doesn’t go to shops, Mr Bean, he catches rabbits with his teeth, smears his face in blood and tries to shoot Political Correctness with a stick, making gun noises.

    An English rabbit, an English stick, and as fitting, a Bren Automatic rifle.

    Who do you think you are kidding Mr EUSSR?

  17. You are joking about Portugal Mr “I-live-on- Gurn-sea”. In the love of the common people no doubt.

    Has-Bean–by the time your fucking EU pals have finished chump, the people of Europe will be enjoying the Venezuelan shopping experience.

    How amusing of the Burger Boy to delineate exactly that experience in his subsequent witty posting. Except Venezuelans substitute cats, rats and dogs for rabbits.

    Also as you and Larri have the most base characteristics of all four beasts plus the cockroach you would be well advised to stay out of socialist-wrecked South America for a long time to come.

    With socialism and statism on the job, cannibalism is never far away.

    Probably still safer than eating a burger made by Larri tho’.

  18. Ecks: “I aagree with his assessment that we can’t trust Johnson. Blojo wants No 10. And is quite capable of selling us back to the EU–in fact if not in name– if he sees advantage to himself.

    Hannan and Carswell are already running their gobs off about not ending unrestricted migration.

    We need to be very careful now. The battle for freedom is just beginning.”

    Who is in place to fight a battle for freedom?

  19. Tomsmith: Because freedom has had such a kicking these last two decades nobody actually expected the good news that the English spirit was still alive and middle-class Marxist crawlers were not the majority.

    As for your question –I don’t yet know. If half the people who voted out wrote to Tory central and told them a sell-out will not be tolerated that would do the trick in itself.

    Politics is a scummy business full of wicked self-serving ego men.

    We just keep going. The EU is dying and time is on our side. The whole house of socialist Keynesian crap is on its way down. Everything our enemies do makes matters worse for themselves as well as everybody else.

  20. The Inimitable Steve

    Jim – I mean are we saying that a business that can only exist because we import cheap labour should continue regardless of the other impacts of bringing in that labour?

    Yup. Been banging on about this since the 90’s, when I started to notice we were bringing in immigrants to work as bus drivers, shop assistants, factory hands and so on.

    It’s the externalities. The employer – always claiming “labour shortages”, and “skills shortages”, even for entry-level jobs in the midst of unemployment blackspots – gets cheap, compliant labour. The taxpayer gets shafted with the cost of covering their tax credits, housing benefit, healthcare, retirement, educating their kids, etc. etc.

    Sure, they “pay” tax. The sums just don’t add up. It’s more of a demographic Ponzi scheme than an economic policy.

    I’m sure most of us would welcome small numbers of genuinely qualified people with skills we really need: Indian neurosurgeons and the like. But we just don’t need any more Eastern European baristas or Big Issue vendors.

  21. Innumerate as well as evil-supporting and stupid Laz?

    You sure have this mental block everytime 150 million is comes up in conversation..

  22. Ecks said

    “Because freedom has had such a kicking these last two decades ”

    It must be difficult being you.

  23. From the guardians comments section:

    If Boris Johnson looked downbeat yesterday, that is because he realises that he has lost.

    Perhaps many Brexiters do not realise it yet, but they have actually lost, and it is all down to one man: David Cameron.

    With one fell swoop yesterday at 9:15 am, Cameron effectively annulled the referendum result, and simultaneously destroyed the political careers of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and leading Brexiters who cost him so much anguish, not to mention his premiership.

    How?

    Throughout the campaign, Cameron had repeatedly said that a vote for leave would lead to triggering Article 50 straight away. Whether implicitly or explicitly, the image was clear: he would be giving that notice under Article 50 the morning after a vote to leave. Whether that was scaremongering or not is a bit moot now but, in the midst of the sentimental nautical references of his speech yesterday, he quietly abandoned that position and handed the responsibility over to his successor.

    And as the day wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legistlation to be torn up and rewritten … the list grew and grew.

    The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction.

    The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50?

    Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders?

    Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-maneouvered and check-mated.

    If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over – Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession … broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act.

    The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.

    When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was “never”. When Michael Gove went on and on about “informal negotiations” … why? why not the formal ones straight away? … he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take.

    All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction, that cannot be borne. And David Cameron has put the onus of making that statement on the heads of the people who led the Brexit campaign.

  24. Your plight is worse than mine Lars.

    Even Lucifer was in Paradise for aeons before being booted out.

    Gurn-Sea is the nearest you’ll ever get.

  25. KJ – You’re on another planet.

    Without a negotiation of some sort leading to some sort of settlement, the Conservative party is finished. I don’t expect someone like you to even begin to understand that.

  26. And if you don’t understand the nuance of negotiation / settlement / article 50, you’re wasting your time.

  27. Ah, yes I did. It’s what happens when you remember something mid sentence and then don’t bother using the new and welcomed preview.

    Still, at the least the reference is clear now :-/

    Ecks

    Of course! Good comeback. I’ve been bazinga’d.

  28. The Inimitable Steve

    KJ – from that Guardian excerpt: The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.

    Yeah, that’s a well argued critique.

    Unfortunately, it fails on account of also being pish. Or at least mostly – the bit about Cameron saddling his successor with the hard work rings true.

    The sky isn’t going to fall in because we’re leaving the EU, and I can’t see the public allowing any Prime Minister to get away with trying to overturn the result of the referendum. This isn’t a banana republic.

    BTW BoJo (and I’m not a fan) didn’t seem subdued to me.

    All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction

    They did, it was called “Britain Stronger In Europe”, and we told em to get stuffed. Same as we’ll do to any fancy lad who thinks he’s going to cheat us out of our independence now.

  29. Gareth with a capital G

    Mr Ecks said: “Hannan and Carswell are already running their gobs off about not ending unrestricted migration.”

    I view this a little differently. What the media keep doing is asking ‘when is immigration going to stop?’ and Leave campaigners responding by pointing out they never said it would. Followed by the media suggesting that makes for a u-turn.

    The media are continuing to push the Remain case. They didn’t listen during the campaign. They aren’t listening now.

  30. KJ–That is what happens if you read the Gladrag.

    Brexit was impossible–then it happens.

    Now the wizards of cultural Marxism have made it impossible again.

    Yawn.

    That Blojo is a coward concerned only for himself–I have no doubt. But doing nothing is not an option. Pulling some kind of brazen con is not an option either.

    As for the terror by night–

    “Scotland will break away,”

    No–the Fish-Faced Hag won’t want to become Queen of Scots without a patron–which won’t be the EU. The reasons have already been given in prior threads. The kind of deal she could give the Jocks would lead them to execute her–never mind the English.

    ” there will be upheaval in Ireland,”

    No–similar reasons

    “a recession … broken trade agreements.”

    Which hurt them as well as us. They are now the ones with ever-growing commitments and ever-shrinking income.

    Besides recession and/or depression are on their way in any case thanks to the worlds scumbag Keynesian/socialist political pukes. Brexit or not. Outside the EU we have freedom to act. They are a chain-gang of befuddled morons who are being abusively herded by wicked and wrong-headed scum and they will fall into chaos once the big collapse begins.

    “These are terrors for children Master Secretary–not for us”

    ” Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act.”

    He isn’t as dumb as he looks, he couldn’t be: it is his self-serving nature we should beware of.

    On a personal note KJ–I can’t remember if you are one of the good guys or not–due to my extreme age.

    If you are a Brexiteer and free market supporter who is keeping us informed about Garbage Week in the Guardian–then God bless you.

    If you are a remain creep who believes their shit and is trying to worry-monger us–Go Fuck Yourself.

    As the case may be.

  31. “BTW BoJo (and I’m not a fan) didn’t seem subdued to me.”

    This. People keep saying it, and it’s utter piffle.

    Boris was simply trying to be respectful of the position he found himself in.

    He has had a reputation as a joker. For him, that has to change, if he wants to aspire to something different. Remember back to what Boris was before he became London Mayor. He could barely open his mouth without cracking a joke. He managed that transition quite successfully. Now he potentially has another transition to manage.

  32. The Inimitable Steve

    The media are continuing to push the Remain case. They didn’t listen during the campaign. They aren’t listening now.

    Quite so. The media are incredibly butthurt about the referendum result, and looking for any way to piss on Leave’s chips.

    The £350m for the NHS thing, where they’re pretending they don’t understand that national budgets are not set by referenda and we’ll be in the EU for another two years at least anyway.

    And the immigration issue, where they’re cutely acting as if Leave wasn’t a broad coalition of people with diverging opinions on immigration, united only in the conviction that immigration policy should be made in Britain rather than Brussels.

    And the “2m people signed a petition for a second referendum” non-story, breathlessly latching on to false hope, deliberately ignoring that most of the signees aren’t British and more than 15 million voted to Leave anyway.

    It’s not news. It’s just media types typing their way through the Kubler-Ross stages of grief.

    Cameron’s resignation made it politically impossible for his successor to fail to declare Art. 50. Can’t pretend that following the referendum result is optional after a sitting PM made it a resignation issue.

    The dogs bark, but the caravan rolls on.

  33. The Inimitable Steve

    Tom – Problem is, the people that voted leave would like immigration and various other things to stop.

    Yes. And Brexit is a necessary but not sufficient precondition for that. The media is pretending the Leave campaign’s talking points were a general election manifesto. Five minutes after the results came in they were buttonholing people demanding “where’s the £350m for the NHS, eh? EH?”

    PF – Boris was simply trying to be respectful of the position he found himself in.

    It’s psychological projection. Guardianistas are pants-shittingly terrified now, so they want to believe Gove, Carswell, and Boris are frit.

    As if these grown men with umpteen decades of political experience between them decided to campaign for Leave for the bants.

  34. TIS

    I know that few on the left want to accept it, but I thought he came across as quite statesman like – by comparison. Ie whatever one thinks of him, it’s pretty damn clear that he is taking this seriously.

    And he proved in London with consummate ease that he can appeal (vote wise) far beyond his immediate core…

  35. The Inimitable Steve

    PF – yarp. The blond clown routine still has some on the Left underestimating him. Maybe some on the Right too.

    More the fools them. Boris has proven himself a persuasive campaigner with good instincts and the audacity to seize the moment.

    His detractors fall into the same mistake Donald Trump’s haters do. Boris’ playful side isn’t a weakness, it’s a powerful asset in an era when people are sick of generic politicians. He knows when to be serious, and the morning after a historic referendum result wasn’t the time to play silly.

  36. “They did, it was called “Britain Stronger In Europe””

    As an aside, which genius decided to run a Remain campaign with the initials BSE?

  37. What all these poor little young dears who are upset at the democratic result should form a single issue party and work long and hard to build a base of support that means they cannot be ignored. Then they might persuade a party leader to hold a referendum on rejoining Europe. I suggest Young United Kingdomians for Political Union with the Kingdom of Europe, or YUKPUKE. They would refuse to accept votes or support from anyone over 50 as people with one foot in the grave shouldn’t be allowed to have a say in the future of young people. People, including young people, with terminal illnesses would also be excluded for the same reason.

  38. The Remainers who are bothered could form a DP – dependency party.
    Which is a bit of a contradiction as to to be bothered enough to do this, you’d have to have the moxy to set one up. So dependency parties can only really evolve from existing parties which started out wanting workers’ freedoms, rights, and other things like that.

  39. If Boris had bounced in to the press conference in Tigger mode, the press would have gone apeshit about his ‘lack of respect’ etc. He tones it down in respect of the importance of the occasion, and gets panned for that too. There was literally no way he could have behaved and not gotten abused for it.

  40. Why do you think that is, Jim?

    If you act the bumbling posh boy all your life, even the hair is affected, then it’s no wonder that people simply think that he is persistently disingenuous.

    It’s impossible to imagine him in any situation that demands a measure of ‘statesman’ like behaviour.

  41. Lawrence,

    Let’s be honest here, you are never going to be Boris’s target audience?

    In that I know younger people, who are relatively apolitical, who wold vote for him in an instant. That’s his strength at reaching beyond the Conservative core, not in trying to appeal to the ideological left by aping the left.

    You said “It’s impossible to imagine him in any situation that demands a measure of ‘statesman’ like behaviour.” Interesting, I guess you also thought he was just “subdued” on the Friday morning? He’s changed his spots before, and no one believes he’s stupid.

    And the fact that so many on the left seem to get so wound up by him is actually a bonus..:) It confirms to the apolitical, who like Boris, that the left are not really like them at all…

  42. “It’s impossible to imagine him in any situation that demands a measure of ‘statesman’ like behaviour.”

    Has it ever occurred to you that people are fed up with ‘statesmanlike behaviour’ from their political leaders, which is normally cover for those people getting shafted by those leaders?

    Personally I could do without the Camerons and Blairs of this world who look good in a suit at international conferences, but never miss a chance to fuck over their own population given half a sniff of some personal glory/loot.

    Whether BoJo would be any better I couldn’t say, but its all we’ve got at the moment, the alternative is Corbyn who would give the country to Hamas if he could.

    The public are at the end of their tether frankly, we wouldn’t have had the vote we did on Thursday otherwise. If the Left keep up this constant attack on ordinary people they are going to create a civil war, and I know who my money is on, and its not the middle class Guardian readers and student SJWs, its the working classes who voted leave – the factory workers, the bin men, the brickies and the lorry drivers.

  43. Corby has got problems of his own.

    Blojo needs to be watched carefully –only so long as his interest lines up with ours will he support our interests.

    That said “persistently disingenuous” is ok next to “mass-murdering, nation-ruining cunt” which the label that applies to shitloads of socialist “leaders”.

  44. Boris is in a difficult position because he has firmly and purposefully stabbed David Cameron in the front and forced his resignation as PM.

    Even Boris has the grace to show a certain amount of humility in such a situation and Michael Gove and Steve Hilton more so.

    I thought David Cameron was a prick from day one and the offering of a referendum was simply political opportunism deemed necessary to put the Tories over the top in the 2015 election, which it did.

    David Cameron had every opportunity to be honest and even neutral with the campaign (as Harold Wilson was in 1975) and by not getting involved save his own premiership.

    He could have honestly admitted that his genuine attempts at a renegotiation with the EU had failed and he had come back with nothing.

    He could have said that there should be an apolitical campaign in which all sides would have a free vote.

    He didn’t do anything like this, he tried to save his own skin by loading the dice for “Remain”, but he over-egged the pudding and in the end nobody believed a fucking word he said.

    David Cameron’s own hubris has caused all of this to come to pass and his legacy will be tainted by it.

    Fucking Good!

  45. I am looking forward to Labour candidates presenting to their electorates their policy for massive fiscal transfers to southern EU states. It would make the Charge of the Light Brigade look like a safe and sensible option.

  46. PF, I think democracy in Great Britain came about around 1928,when all adult women got the vote. Is that your understanding of when Britain became Great?

  47. PF, I think democracy in Great Britain came about around 1928,when all adult women got the vote. Is that your understanding of when Britain became Great?

    No, but then my life’s not defined by whether I’ve got tits or not.

  48. Has-Bean–Are you Dr Johnson now, that we should give a rat’s arse for your definitions?

    That you are Howard Johnson IS believable.

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