Err, yes….

An SNP MEP has told his colleagues in Brussels that Scotland should get a special deal to stay in the European Union because the “the UK is not a country.”

So that Scottish referendum on whether to leave the United Kingdom was about what then?

35 thoughts on “Err, yes….”

  1. EU will be thrilled to have new debt-laden country with especially truculent and demanding governing party in the Euro

  2. The SNP are finished. We’ve passed Peak Sturgeon.

    With their whole leave policy screwed, that’s it.

  3. Ian B’s right. All we are seeing is the death throes of Scottish Independence. Everyone knows that its a recipe for financial disaster on a Greek scale in Scotland, but no-one in the SNP wants to admit it yet, because when they do thats their USP gone. It would be back to the usual local politics scenario – having to deal with the boring stuff like drains, rather than swanning around the capitals of Europe as the governors of a country.

  4. The Inimitable Steve

    Alyn Smith argued that Europe’s leaders have to recognise that the UK comprises of four nations

    Or what?

  5. Brexit is the best thing to happen to the SNP recently.The last few elections have been one setback after another but now the independence question is alive again.

    And except for immigration, the arguments used by Brexiters and the Nats for their case are very similar. Take Back Control works just as well for Sturgeon. Instead of Brussels, Westminster is the source of every fault. You don’t appear know it but you’re all essentially Cybernats on here but with a different source of hate.

    Jim, the SNP policy isn’t screwed. The whole point in 2014 was to leave the UK and join the EU. Nothings changed. Our economy might be screwed by that action but try telling independence-folk that. They don’t listen.

  6. The Inimitable Steve

    You don’t appear know it but you’re all essentially Cybernats on here but with a different source of hate.

    LOL.

  7. @Hugh, no Brexit is the worst thing that ever happened to the SNP. Leaving the UK and joining the EU in 2014 might have been feasible (albeit a poor economic deal for Scotland), and Brexit gives Sturgeon an excuse to call for another referendum, but the reality is that with £48 billion of exports to the rest of the UK and only £11billion going to the rest of the EU (7% of GDP,far less than the UK average), Scotland would be screwing itself if it joined the EU and left a post Brexit UK.

  8. Independence scenario re-imagined:

    Should children leave family home and set up on their own?

    Yes, if they’re 25 with a degree under their belt and a decent salary (UK)

    No, if they’re three months old and need their nappy changing every few hours (Scotland)

  9. The Inimitable Steve

    blerk – Eh.

    There’s a perfectly honourable case to be made for independence for Scotland.

    But nobody – least of all the SNP – is making it.

    “Independence in Europe” is such a dishonest, misleading description that if they were selling a consumer product rather than a political fantasy they’d be in court.

  10. @Hugh: whats changed is the oil price, and thats the elephant sitting slap bang in the middle of the Independence room, and being studiously ignored by the SNP. An independent Scotland is stony broke (even more broke than Greece is today) on day 1 of independence. If Scotland had voted Out in 2014, by the time the negotiations were under way with Westminster the Scots negotiating team would have been pleading to stay in, the oil price had dropped so far and so fast.

    Going off to the EU and using the Euro (or sterling, who knows?) may still be the policy, but the EU has all the peripheral semi-bankrupt states it needs right now, another is not going to high on its admission list, especially one in need of a cash bailout on day 1. The world has changed, and the SNP is still pretending Scotland can float off into the wide blue and gold starred yonder on a sea of oil money. The sea of oil money has however parted, and the SNP are sat on the ocean floor, wondering when they are going to get swallowed up.

  11. Alex, you are labouring under the misapprehension that facts matter to pro-independence folk.

    The IS:

    LTW: that is my view also but it won’t make any difference to the debate up here. People don’t believe the Scottish government’s own figures on our deficit. They think they are a Westminster conspiracy. And the implications of the budget deficit for EU membership hasn’t even been considered by most.

  12. Scottish independence is almost inevitable. A public with its own sense of national identity that consistently votes the opposite way to those its in union with cannot continue in the long term. (20-40 years)
    Once you’ve got 40%+ voting for independence the rest is a matter of time. You basically need a significant (+10-20%)rise in either UK labour support in England or the conservative party in Scotland to harmonise the politics and reverse the trend. Who thinks either is likely?

  13. The Inimitable Steve

    Scottish independence is almost inevitable. A public with its own sense of national identity that consistently votes the opposite way to those its in union with cannot continue in the long term. (20-40 years)

    Dunno. Look at Quebec.

    Though it seems to me the Empire gave the Union a purpose, and Scotland and England have been slowly drifting in different political directions since we won WW2.

    The Scots could certainly make a go of independence – real independence, not Dependence on Europe. But most of em wouldn’t like the Thatcherite medicine that would be required to turn Scotland into a viable independent state.

    The SNP are social justice warriors LARPing as nationalists.

  14. @Jim: when I say nothing’s changed, I mean the SNP’s objective will be the same, ie leave the UK to join the EU. The economic case for independence was awful in 2014 and, as you say, it is disastrous now.

    But the 2014 debate was characterised by outright lies and wishful thinking from the Yes side – friends of mine seriously peddled the line that oil was just a bonus to our finances. When you only need 50% plus 1 vote, you will say just about anything to get where you want to go. And the point you make will be dismissed as propaganda designed to do Scotland down.

  15. Anyone who wants to see the mentality of independence supporters should look at the comments posted on the Scotsman articles with independence as the topic.

    I spend a good deal of my time posting there and I can tell you that the separatists are beyond all reason and will not accept any plain facts that undermine their case so rational argument is basically futile.

  16. Inmtbl Steve, yes agree Scotland can go it alone and if it wants to then why not.

    “most of em wouldn’t like the Thatcherite medicine” That’s true (and its the root of the problem) Ironically should independence happen- and should it not go according to the Larp script then Conservatives could see that rise in support as the people start to look for alternative solutions. However with the Quadrangulation of Unionism vs EU vs liberal reforms and socialist doubling down means high chance of political quagmire for a few years post independence and come to think of it even post brexit.

  17. Bloke in North Dorset

    “reality is that with £48 billion of exports to the rest of the UK and only £11billion going to the rest of the EU (7% of GDP,far less than the UK average), Scotland would be screwing itself if it joined the EU and left a post Brexit UK.”
    Why would we English stop buying from Scotland? Unless you think joining th Euro will raise their cost base to the point we can find the same goods cheaper from elsewhere? At which point we drink less Whisky.

  18. The SNP may well have peaked, but they’ll be around for a while yet, because (a) the Scottish electorate has lost faith in Labour and (b) the well-springs of resentment of England run full and deep.

  19. @BiND: presumably the idea goes that if the Scots tied themselves to the Euro they’d suffer the same problems that many Eurozone countries have over the last 10 years – an exchange rate thats perfect for Germany but not so good for them.

  20. Can anyone tell me what is so precious about the Union?

    It may have been valuable in those days when we didn’t want the French landing there, but the Romans weren’t dumb and they wrote off the place, building a wall to keep them at bay.

    The cost to England of keeping Scotland is not just the money we spend on them, but also the number of labour MPs they send to our parliament to trash our economy.
    Seriously – think about what Gordon Brown cost this country, I think his only real rival is Heath, because his legacy hurt us for longer.

    Just as per whether we should leave the EU, the question is not whether our decision hurts the other side. They generally don’t like us, discriminate against us, cost more than they contribute, so why are we in favour of them staying?

    Last irrelevant thought – when I were a lad we had a dartboard which had an inscription on it: ‘Made in England by Scots’. Puzzled me for a long time that did.

  21. “but also the number of labour MPs they send to our parliament to trash our economy.”

    That number would be 1.

  22. On the surface it appears that the arguments against Scottish independence are similar to those against Brexit. Once again, it is your country so I will generally keep my opinions to myself.

    I do need to note that the request for a special deal from the EU appears to be an admission that Scotland does not meet the criteria for EU membership. Negotiating with an exposed weak point never ends well.

  23. Perhaps Jolyon Maugham and friends can get some crowd funding to have the UK declared legally not a country.

  24. Bloke in Costa Rica

    Even without Brexit, if Scotland had voted to leave and then tried to join the EU they’d have at the very least been told to join the back of the queue. And more likely is that Spain would have vetoed them. Turkey will be in the EU before an independent Scotland, that’s my prediction.

  25. “LTW: that is my view also but it won’t make any difference to the debate up here.”

    Point taken Hugh!

    “On the surface it appears that the arguments against Scottish independence are similar to those against Brexit.”

    LY, some of the arguments in favour are pretty similar too, especially “regain our sovereignty even if it costs us”. There is one key difference though. The UK can afford to have that attitude (and whether the UK will actually be worse off outside the EU is arguable anyway), but Scotland can’t.

  26. Look at Quebec.

    Or the Basques.

    Look at Belgium or Italy, which don’t just have one fractious province but are basically a collection of provinces that all fancy going alone at rates that can reach 40%.

  27. Scotland’s problem is that it is rotten with socialism.

    I don’t believe that Scottish “nationalism” can matter that much to people who want to be sold to the EU.

    It is more like a boiling cauldron of socialist hatred and resentment against Fhatcher then any desire to run their own affairs.

    How can a crew that won’t face the reality of their own budget situation claim to be serious about being their own nation?

  28. Mr Ecks – ‘the problem (with the Union) is not that Scotland is socialist per se but that England and Wales is not equally so. When you difffer about what’s the correct attire at a wedding there’s no problem with Union, but if you differ about which set of politicians should have power and what they should do with it there is.

  29. The Scots aren’t actually that socialist. Or rather the SNP isn’t actually that socialist. It talks a good game, mainly to be able to differentiate itself from the Tories in Westminster, but in government its pretty brown bread stuff. Which is the only body in the UK to have cut NHS spending? The Scottish Parliament, thats who. Which also hasn’t even used its tax raising powers yet, for fear of frightening the horses. And if an independent Scotland went off the Left wing deep end, you can bet your bottom dollar the Scots electorate would be reining them in faster than you could say tax increases, once their pockets were being felt. The reason the Scots can play at socialism is that they aren’t paying for it, so its a no brainer. Make them pay for their own socialist follies and suddenly you’ll find a lot of votes pouring back into the ‘low tax, small government’ camp.

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