There’s always been an advantage to Nigel

Bill Etheridge says he wants to see ‘a return to the days’ when prison focused first and foremost on punishment, and vowed to ‘rehabilitate without using significant financial resources’.

His measures include:

removing all luxuries from jails, including all electronic devices.
an automatic 10-year sentence increase for prisoners who attack prison officers.
locking prisoners in their cells for the first six months of sentences.
banning all visits over the same period.
a £40,000 annual charge on prisoners to be levied until ‘their assets are depleted’.

Idiocies like this were stamped upon and stamped upon fast.

I recall one version of a manifesto that lasted about 30 minutes as a result of things like this.

Idiocy.

44 thoughts on “There’s always been an advantage to Nigel”

  1. Cretinous.

    The one thing that does need to be done about prison is the stamping out of jihadi gangs inside. Solitary confinement for term for anyone caught at it would be my thing to focus on.

    Otherwise, abandon the drug war and treat those people who are locked up humanely and we wouldn’t go far wrong.

  2. I can’t decide which is the most stupid. Probably this one:

    • An automatic 10-year sentence increase for prisoners who attack prison officers

    Thus any prisoner who has already attacked a prison officer five times can carry on attacking them with impunity.

  3. Cretinous.

    Why?

    The one thing that does need to be done about prison is the stamping out of jihadi gangs inside. Solitary confinement for term for anyone caught at it would be my thing to focus on.

    How, pray tell, do you expect to ‘stamp out’ these [non-existent] ‘jihadi gangs’? All sounds pretty unworkable to me….oh, and cretinous.

  4. The Inimitable Steve

    These are all daft ideas because he’s ignorant of how convicts respond to incentives. TV isn’t a luxury, it’s a perk used to keep jailbirds out of trouble.

    I do like his death penalty referendum idea tho.

  5. The Inimitable Steve

    Have to say that the people running or thinking of running for UKIP leader make the Labour contest look like a box of delights.

    The only likeable one is Raheem Kassam, and he was joking.

    They’d be better off making me their leader than choose some dead-eyed town councillor.

  6. Steve

    “it’s a perk used to keep jailbirds out of trouble”… I’m told the effect is basically like a sedative. Zaps the energy out of them all, once the eyeballs are glued. Drug of choice for all prison managers.

  7. The Inimitable Steve

    MBE – Yarp.

    And, really, can you imagine a worse punishment than being locked away spending 5 years watching Freeview?

    Obviously yes, but the pit and pendulum would never pass elfinsafety. Telly is an acceptable compromise torture.

  8. An automatic 10-year sentence increase for prisoners who attack prison officers

    With an “attack on a prison officer” being defined as what one or more prison officers says it is. Can’t see this being open to abuse, oh no…

  9. @Bongo Abubongo

    ‘Cretinous. Why?’

    Because making life harder for prisoners makes life harder for prison workers, and because it’s uncivilised. If people commit crime, lock the fuckers up (if appropriate). But what kind of micropenised dolt wants to inflict pain on captives, however righteously they’re held? Ah – your kind of micropenised dolt.

    ‘How, pray tell, do you expect to ‘stamp out’ these [non-existent] ‘jihadi gangs’? All sounds pretty unworkable to me….oh, and cretinous.’

    They do exist, you tit, and I included my prescription in the comment: ‘ Solitary confinement for term for anyone caught at it’

  10. Oh dear. On the same day the Daily Mash published an article “UKIP Steps Up Search For New Bellend”

  11. “They do exist, you tit, and I included my prescription in the comment: ‘ Solitary confinement for term for anyone caught at it’”

    Well, I don’t recall them being mentioned by the BBC or the Guardian, which is my Gold Standard of political reality.

  12. How did Nige actually stamp on these things?

    Was it just a ‘no’, with his power within the party giving him a final word?

    Would he have a cogent argument to rebut these various proposals?

    And if he did, was that logic based more around electability or the specific policies themselves?

    I.e. I’m trying to figure out what was actually ‘lost’ here in Nigel.

  13. He’s got a good head on him for what is roughly “classical liberal”. I know, doesn’t seem like it but he does.

    Increase jail terms? Sure, why not, if that’s what people want. Screw up jail management? No, don’t be stupid. There was some of this stuff in a manifesto in my time there and as I say, it was just junked in 30 minutes.

  14. Remove RoP elements to two camps.

    One for the violent crims, one for the non-violent crims.

    Most of the violent ones should merely be awaiting deportation.

    Get them gone quick.

  15. Well, I don’t recall them being mentioned by the BBC or the Guardian, which is my Gold Standard of political reality.

    Thanks for that Rob, best laugh I have had in ages, especially given the fact that the Grauniad is rapidly going down the toilet with a £69 million loss for last year alone rising to £173 million when including asset write downs (supposedly one-offs) and 260 job loses with more to come.

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/jul/27/guardian-losses-members

    I wouldn’t become too reliant upon the Grauniad as an organ of truth as I doubt that it can survive much longer. There only hope might be a bail-out by a Labour government, but I can’t see that happening before 2025 at the earliest.

    I wonder at what point the Grauniad will throw in the dead-tree towel and switch to Internet only? I can’t see it surviving much longer.

  16. These morons forget – or chose to ignore – that you go to prison *AS* punishment, not *FOR* punishment. The punishment is the removal of personal liberty.

  17. Well, it’s reassuring you’re all of a mind in condemning Bill Etheridge’s proposals. Pat yourselves on your backs for your fine liberal principle. Meanwhile, there’s a lot of people out in the country would say he doesn’t go nearly far enough.. But they’re just the people tend to be on the receiving end when it comes criminal activity. See the perpetrators go off for a short holiday break at Her Majesty’s Pleasure Parks. To return refreshed & revitalised to continue.
    But what would they know about it?

  18. South Georgia, North Rona, St Kilda, Rockall; there’s plenty of places to lock up the worst so that you have some chance of taming the less bad.

  19. Self defence beats punishment.

    When they make their move they need to be shot dead or beaten to a pulp.

    In the old days society had a far more martial nature. Not martial in the sense of worshipping the state’s costumed death squad but in the sense of recognising the need to protect themselves and seeing the value of being able to do so.

    And then doing the needed work.

  20. Ah, but Mr Ecks gets it.
    Pal of mine had his teenage daughter robbed at knifepoint a few steps from her front door. Mostly, she stays at home, now. Unless going out’s absolutely necessary & there’s someone to accompany her. The lowlife did it lives a street away. A regular attendee at various courts & graduate of criminal studies from the University of Crime campus. But not for this particular offence, because the accusations of a frightened lass are deemed “insufficient evidence” by the CPS. Not something would deter them if her father took a hand in righting wrongs. The lowlife in question being of the tinted constituency.

  21. I can imagine this set of (mostly impractical and counter-productive, not to mention illiberal) proposals going down a treat with many of the people whose doors I’ve spent the last few years knocking on. Esp. the ones up the sharp end of modern Britain in the local estates. Bloke in spain has a point.

  22. So we take anyone who has broken a law and stick them in a miserable hellhole surrounded by other miserable people while taking any property they have. That sounds like a perfect way to ensure we have more recidivism what with releasing broke people that had no opportunity to learn about other options. Is the death penalty for someone who steals a loaf of bread hidden in there as well?

  23. locking prisoners in their cells for the first six months of sentences

    I thought the point was to lock them in their cells for the entire sentence. 🙂

  24. “But not for this particular offence, because the accusations of a frightened lass are deemed “insufficient evidence” by the CPS.”

    Which is strange, as if there is one demographic the CPS are bending over backwards to believe these days, regardless, it is women.

  25. @BiS

    ‘Well, it’s reassuring you’re all of a mind in condemning Bill Etheridge’s proposals. Pat yourselves on your backs for your fine liberal principle.’

    Wait, aren’t you and Mr Ecks the guys who thinks the cops are all cunts and cannot be trusted? So you want to bang people up in the Black Hole of Calcutta on the basis of what I assume are most likely to be lies told by ‘bluebottles’?

    The issue you mention with your mate’s daughter would enrage me, but it’s not a function of how prisoners are treated in prison, it’s a function of how brief the sentences are.

  26. “The issue you mention with your mate’s daughter would enrage me, but it’s not a function of how prisoners are treated in prison, it’s a function of how brief the sentences are.”

    Just do what we did and get tough on crime. For bonus point make sure sentencing for similar crimes is not proportionate and targets those groups you disapprove of.

  27. Bloke in Costa Rica

    It’s the revolving door stuff that gets people righteously steamed. I personally don’t care if prisons are like a Centre Parcs with a great big wall round them. It’s the “X had 47 previous convictions including those for theft, burglary, wounding and affray. Mr Justice Cocklecarrot bound him over to keep the peace for six months” that really grips my shit. The only real function of prison I see is the incapacitative effect, with deterrence as a second-order criterion. Forget punishment, retribution, rehabilitation etc.. If a toerag is in the clink, he is not out nicking and being a fucking pain in the aris. So start with your suspended sentences, fine. Give ’em a chance but then escalate the tariff (say 1.5× each conviction), so that the only way someone could have 20 convictions for burglary would be if they’d started their crime spree in the 8th millennium BC. And if you’re on a suspended sentence and you screw up, that’s it. No ifs, no buts, feet don’t touch the floor. No automatic parole and time off for not being a cunt. A sentence should do exactly what it says on the tin. You could just halve all current tariffs and be exactly where you where before, as long as, say, three years meant day-month-year to day-month-(year + 3). Yes, it would remove a certain amount of discretion from judges in setting sentences. But considering the utter fucking pig’s ear they make of the job now, that’s a feature, not a bug.

  28. @BiCR

    https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/192631/proven-reoffending-jul-10-jun-11.pdf

    Between July 2010 and June 2011, around 630,000 offenders3 were cautioned4, convicted (excluding immediate custodial sentences) or released from custody5. Around 170,000 of these offenders committed a proven re-offence within a year. This gives a one year proven re-offending rate of 26.9 per cent, which represents a rise of 0.5 percentage points compared to the previous 12 months and a fall of 1.0 percentage points since 2000 (Table 1).

    Yep, a quarter of the buggers can’t even get through a year without being caught doing something illegal (never mind the ones that don’t get caught).

  29. Interested: Don’t include me with the Prison cult.

    I offered a suggestion to segregate/deport RoP’rs –in answer to you complaint–and proposed a return to a martial culture, in a non-state-arse kissing manner.

    And Yes–cops are mostly cunts–with a few honourable exceptions. There being a few good apples in every rotten barrel.

  30. @Interested
    “Wait, aren’t you and Mr Ecks the guys who thinks the cops are all cunts and cannot be trusted? So you want to bang people up in the Black Hole of Calcutta on the basis of what I assume are most likely to be lies told by ‘bluebottles’?”

    What’s the connection between the two? Are you saying; because law enforcement’s suspect, prison regimes should be easy-going to compensate? Because there’s an argument; because the punishment side’s so lax, you tend to get the sort of CGaF law enforcement results. Not saying I think that’s the whole of the problem or even a significant part,when it comes down to Plod.

    “it’s not a function of how prisoners are treated in prison, it’s a function of how brief the sentences are.”

    It’s both. Because it’s subjective, not objective. A short sentence that was pluperfect hell would be a sentence one wouldn’t want to repeat in a hurry. Or an experience one wouldn’t chance enjoying in the first place. Fear’s a remarkably effective motivator.

  31. “because the accusations of a frightened lass are deemed “insufficient evidence” by the CPS.” If that’s all they’ve got, they’re right.

    The solution is for Daddy to hire some heavies who will sort the so-and-so out.

  32. Some people will accept a caution because it’s easier than the pain of going to court and arguing over a minor matter where its your word against someone else’s or the police, if you were to remove those situations the % would be higher and then you would have an idea of to what extent the police use cautions as an easy option and to massage the stats

  33. I’m not in favour of persecuting prisoners, but I do think prison regimes are far too liberal. Sure, they can have a TV and a decent diet; but drugs and mobiles should be ruthlessly eliminated and removed. And the nonsense whereby you can get a life sentence for murder and be out in eight years has to end.

  34. People learn how to behave from the way others treat them. If you teach a person that the way to get what you want is to threaten, punish, and torment them until they do what you say, they’ll learn to do the same thing to everyone else.

    You can hardly complain – they’re just copying *you*.

    What you want is for them to lead a productive life as a model citizen. So in prison, you *make* them do so. You’re not doing anything to them that other people don’t do to themselves voluntarily, but you make them get up early and go to work, you make sure they keep clean and tidy, you make sure they’re polite and considerate and conscientious. You teach them the skills and self-discipline they need to be productive. Then you show them the rewards they’ll get if they cooperate.

    Most prisons are filled with the mentally ill and with life’s losers. They skipped school, learnt no useful skills and acquired a whole load of anti-social habits. Their lives are shit, with shit being rained down on them by everyone else in their society, and they kick back at it. They’re angry and resentful and uncomprehending, not understanding what they need to do to climb out of the hole they’re digging themselves. Raining more shit on their heads is precisely the opposite of what you need to do if you want them to stop.

    Prisons have to be like schools. School isn’t supposed to be fun – you’re there to learn. But it isn’t supposed to be hell, either.

  35. Trouble is, Dearieme, the Feminist Appreciation Society hasn’t signed up many members amongst some of the London enriching communities. So our tinted toerag probably thinks harvesting young girls’ valuables as a way of supplementing the Job Saekers is…. pretty well…normal behaviour. So when some big geezers go round & kick the shit out of him he’s going to be feeling he’s the victim here.
    And so it goes round.

  36. “The heavies didn’t need hiring Dearieme. These people are Londoners.”

    Yeah, well ‘ard, mite, well ‘ard.

  37. It might be an idea to get rid of the “juvenile” , “kids”, “children” classification.
    A hand with a knife can damage you even if owned by a ten year old.
    Locking people away has one special benefit – it ages them. Old people are less criminally active than young ones.

  38. “Yeah, well ‘ard, mite, well ‘ard.”

    It’s more they’re members of a community. Like a lot of London’s communities. Try robbing young Asian girls round Tower Hamlets & see what the response is. Or you might try your luck over Tottenham way..

  39. The Inimitable Steve

    Dunno NiV, I tend to think the whole idea of rehabilitation is bollocks.

    Most convicts are basically retarded. A double digit IQ and the impulse control of a toddler make learning much beyond the basics impossible.

    I think we tend to underestimate just how much of a handicap low IQ is. Some people just aren’t cut out to function in a technological post-industrial society. Cf. the excitable goatherders currently running around Europe beheading priests.

    Jail’s only reliable function is to keep feral humans from preying on normies. The punishment fetishists are wrong because they don’t understand or care how we keep prisons from erupting into deadly riots.

    The rehabilitation cultists are wrong because no amount of social workers prattling piously is going to turn Roger the Rapist into a proper human being.

    There is an alternative which ancient societies sometimes used: banishment. And I hear St. Kilda is lovely this time of year.

  40. Sending to some remote island (or back to Syria) is much cheaper than prison. Probably more effective too

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