No, really, just no

A “total ban” on Muslim state schools has been called for by Lisa Duffy, the Ukip leadership hopeful.

Ms Duffy, who is expected to be announced as once of the candidates in the party’s leadership race at noon today, has called for Islamic faith schools to be shut down in a bid to tackle radicalisation.

Sigh.

97 thoughts on “No, really, just no”

  1. I am against this. However, I do think that they should be very closely inspected and any hint of the slightest incitement of pupils to hatred of the country, the west and liberal values generally should result in closures of schools, and the imprisonment and (if possible) the expulsion of any guilty teachers, and the appropriation of their funds. We can also salt their veg patches.

    I’m aware of the contradiction here – ‘Shut up, you can’t criticise my liberal values’ – but liberalism fine as between people who don’t want to kill each other. It is a very weak horse indeed as against violent Islamic invasion.

    The day that Catholic/other schools are found preaching the same kind of thing, ditto.

  2. Lots of anti-RoP measures are needed.

    The one she suggests would just be dumb.

    Better:

    *No more let in
    *Loss of the vote
    *Recognise their marriages and allow only one followed by a bigamy charge for any more
    *Only benefits for one woman and 2 kids and enough housing benefit for 4–not a penny more.

    There are lots more that could be done but that will halt demographic takeover–and that is the real Jihad.

    We are not yet in a full-on conflict with lots of Paris/Islamtown etc capers. If that situation develops then other measures may be needed.

    The best moves we can make are to:

    1-Defeat the left–by far the biggest job. Minus their dug-in allies the RoP has little going for it.

    2–Low key moves such as above to stop demographic takeover. This will spread the knowledge that there will be no victory for them. They know demographics is their way to victory. With numbers halted /declining and no voting clout they will give up and either settle to get on with their lives and gradually integrate –or leave, realising they can’t prevail and if they stay their kids will be assimilated. A modest bounty for leaving should help many on their way.

  3. Do we still have denominational state schools. I thought state schools had to be all inclusive.

  4. Schools are all inclusive. Except when it comes to parents choices about which school their child must go to.

  5. @Dearieme

    Yup, no religious schools and move to a fully secular state.

    Compel the BBC to have ‘Thought For The Day’ broadcast opinions from atheists and agnostics. Either that or invite a Pastafarian from time to time.

  6. “‘Thought For The Day’ broadcast opinions from atheists and agnostics.”

    They’ve already got the CoE doing that.

  7. Do we still have denominational state schools?

    Very common in Scotland and, not including the widespread CofE schools in England, there are 2245 Catholic schools in England and Wales.

    I would note that denominational schools are, by law, open to all faiths and none. Although less attractive to those not of the faith (although Catholic schools up here are quite popular with Muslim parents because they tend to be stricter on dress codes and with the nuns wearing head-scarves they tend to allow the girls to as well.)

    Episcopalian (complex but think of it as CofE-ish) friends sent their two daughters to the local Catholic High School. It worked well for one of them. Probably nothing, schooling wise, would have worked well for the other.

  8. Yup, no religious schools and move to a fully secular state.

    It’s a pity that that’s not working so well for the French.

  9. On the grounds of animal cruelty ban the ritual slaughter of animals and the distribution of their meat.
    Strict supervision of Muslim charities: these are restricted to Muslim beneficiaries and are often a cover for supporting jihadism.
    Sermons at mosques to be only in English.
    Benefits, especially for women, to be tied to learning English and participation in the work force.

    Stop policing the internet for possible “offence” and robustly defend the right to debate anything. Prosecute all calls to violence.

    Robustly defend and teach the values of the Enlightenment, freedom of speech, freedom of conscience and equality before the law, ie UK law without any deferrence to shariah.

    The teaching and practice of shariah is sedition and should be treated as such.

  10. Interested

    “The day that Catholic/other schools are found preaching the same kind of thing, ditto.”

    As a practicing Catholic I’d say yes, I agree with that.

    Although the horse bolted long ago here with Catholics who seem to think they’re Irish. I dtill rememver one woman came to our barbecue in 2012 and, seeing the Union Flag paper plates we were using, said “my son is not eating off that”. Apparently I’m to blame for a ruined friendship by speaking out of turn in reply. I personally think anyone who stands in my country and insults my country has never been my friend.

  11. Not so long ago a nation’s people were expected to be all of the same religion.

    The muzzies still live in that state and are not prepared to accept our modern day multi-religion situation.

    That makes islam too dangerous to have around, similar to me going to Tesco’s with my peaceful flamethrower. It’s peacefule because I’m telling you it is.

    I’ve never had much regard for Islam, but the murder of 84 people by truck has completed the job.
    What kind of turd can keep the throttle full down as he experiences his truck breaking innocent bodies as he drives over them?

  12. What kind of turd can keep the throttle full down as he experiences his truck breaking innocent bodies as he drives over them?

    The same sort of turd that staffed the Inquisition or acted as a witch-finder in Protestant England and Scotland.

  13. When I lived in Central London, Muslims were queuing to apply for places in CoE schools for their children to protect them from the miltant preaching of the religion of atheism practiced in ILEA schools.
    Closing down denominational schools will not remove religion from the educational system, it will just exclude Christianity while permitting Judaism Islam and Atheism to remain.

  14. I’m relatively relaxed on allowing all faith schools which meet basic educational needs on science etc. One proviso.

    All existing muslims and future converts to islam to be deported.

  15. “The day that Catholic/other schools are found preaching the same kind of thing, ditto.”

    What, you mean it’s stopped since my cousins were young?

  16. Not so long ago a nation’s people were expected to be all of the same religion.

    Arrant bollocks.

  17. What kind of turd can keep the throttle full down as he experiences his truck breaking innocent bodies as he drives over them?

    Someone with a severe mental illness.

  18. Agree entirely, SE,

    Let’s ban Catholic Inquisitors, Protestant Witchfinders and Muslims on the basis that all of their beliefs are totally evil, brutal and dumb.

  19. Benedict Arnald, so by your definition the perpetrators of the Charlie Hebdo massacre, the Bataclan massacre, the Brussels Airport bombing, the murder of a French priest are all severely mentally ill?

    No, nothing to do with Islam at all. Fuckwit.

  20. Well, I suppose we can all stick staunchly to our liberal principles. Whilst they’re still permitted.

  21. yeah. Lawrence. You carry on excusing Islam while they throw you off a tall building just for not being quite enough like them. I hope I get to see it on TV. I’m sure they’ll do a video.

  22. Lawrence, Andrew C,

    The latest argument is that it’s not severe mental illness or Islam alone; it’s the combination of both together. Therefore we should shovel squillions of cash into the NHS’s mental health services, treating millions of “worried well”, and hopefully also catching would-be terrorists in the same net. (As a bonus, all those psychology students currently scribbling for the Guardian would finally have something useful to do with their degrees.)

  23. If you excuse abhorrent evil behaviour on the ground of ‘mental illness’ where does that leave the Holocaust?

    “Your Honours, my client did arrange for the murder of 6 million Jews and other people he considered sub-human, but to do something so heinous must mean he is mentally ill, so no blame can be attached to him whatsoever, and he should be free to leave this court without a stain on his character. “

  24. “What kind of turd can keep the throttle full down as he experiences his truck breaking innocent bodies as he drives over them?”

    He ain’t no Muslm bruv, etc etc. So move on, nothing to see here.

  25. @Lawrence/Arnald

    ‘Someone with a severe mental illness.’

    It is a bit mental to eschew sausages, beer and the equality of women.

  26. OK Lawrence, explain this to to me:

    Catholics vs Anglicans, smae religion FFS!

    Witch trials, ‘ thou shalt not suffer a witch to live’

    The kind of mental illness that enbled the truck murderer was preached in a mosque.

    Most modern religions have allowed society to pull their teeth, islam is still as brutal as it ever was and shows no signs of being reformable, cf find a peaceful use for my proposed flamethrower.
    The more you know about flamethrowers the more apt the comparison to the poisonous religion btw. They don’t just project flame but a sticky burning substance which will continue to incinerate you as you run away. Surrender if you like but it won’t put the flames out, if you have enough on you you’re done (in a few minutes more), anybody who could have helped you likely been splattered too and has their own problems.

    If you search around on the web you’ll find a church of the vampire. They believe they can become immortal undead by stealing life force from unbelievers and offering it to their pantheon, but I’m sure they’re all good chaps really.

    Some religions are beyond the pale, the question is where the line is drawn.

  27. Larri–The same kind of mental illness that allows a man to support and endorse a creed that has murdered 150 million human beings.

    If support for the RoP equals nutter so does support for socialism–actively allied with the RoP at this time.

    Should really call your gang the RoH–Religion of Hate.

    The RoH(tm) sounds better tho’. With a silent M–the RoHt.

  28. You’d think that with a quarter of the world’s population adherent in one way or another to Islamic teachings, then total domination would have happened ages ago.

  29. If you search around on the web you’ll find a church of the vampire.

    Given what you can find on the web if you search competently, I’m not sure that is good support to this, or any, argument.

    Relevance and reliability are always a problem.

    Apropos of nothing much, we don’t seem to have heard from our ex-Wikipedia editor recently?

    then total domination would have happened ages ago.

    Numbers aren’t everything. It’s not as if they haven’t had a couple of tries. And Daesh are certainly trying (in so far as they aren’t simply trying to bring about their Armageddon – the “Great Battle.”)

  30. The Nice atrocity did reveal that the Islamic nutters’ mental illness is curable – 9mm body piercings. Works every time.

  31. nuking Mecca would also work.

    Really? One of the things that the Quran teaches about the “Great Battle” is that it won’t start until the Hajj stops.

    Even Leisure Sloth Larry realises that there are quite a lot of them. And some of them have nuclear weapons. Pissing off even the reasonable ones seems like a bad way to go about countering the unreasonable ones.

    As an aside, I wouldn’t pick 9mm, either, although it is okay for a secondary weapon. .357 Magnum is better without being too heavy.

  32. Allah is either all powerful with his home on earth the Ka’aba at Mecca or he is a mean fantasy for bloodthirsty minds.

  33. “One of the things that the Quran teaches about the “Great Battle” is that it won’t start until the Hajj stops.”

    Hopefully it would cause them to reveal themselves

    “Pissing off even the reasonable ones seems like a bad way to go about countering the unreasonable ones.”

    There is no reason in Islam. No need to stop with nuking Mecca.

  34. “Sigh”

    A prohibition against Islam and muslims would be a better idea. Seems a bit stupid to import people wishing to genocide your people.

  35. OK, back to Lawrence, although I suspect it is a waste of time:

    Islam can’t create shit because there is nothing to learn according to islam which is not in the koran.

    The industrial revolution happened in England because religion’s contraints were weakest here. Islam is the opposite of that. Islamic countries do not import and translate other countries books, thay are caught in a time bubble by their own culture.

    We all know of the catholic church meting punishment for saying the world if round, multiply it up a few times and you have islam.

    I can tolerate anyone’s sky fairies as long as they don’t impinge on me. Islam is anything but passive and is determined to get in everyone’s faces.
    American politicians are starting to suggest we facilitate their islamic paradise: close them in and leave them with nothing more than their own technology, it’s a shame, but its safer for us so it suits me down to the ground.

    @Surr Evil – choose the most evil sky fairy you can think of – doesn’t matter to me. I thought I’d found a new low beneath satanists, but substitute as required.
    My point is that some religions are too evil to be tolerated and when you look at it that way islam is one of them.
    It goes against the grain to ban activities I don’t have any interest in, but if you look at religion and its effects you can draw a sliding scale and see immediatley that there’s a cut off point between acceptable and abhorrent. I posit that islam is in the abhorrent set.

  36. In other news, Steven Wolfe is prevented from standing in the UKIP leadership election. Now, they’ll fight rats in a sack. Pity, when the party has a huge opportunity to eliminate Labour. Predictable, given they always were a rabble.

  37. Garath: What makes today’s Islam so bizzaire is that Muslim countries had a glorious flowering of scientific investigation 1000-odd years ago while Christendom was wallowing in mud.

  38. You’d think that with a quarter of the world’s population adherent in one way or another to Islamic teachings, then total domination would have happened ages ago.

    Or, you might say:

    With three quarters of the world’s population non-adherent to Islam, it’s not surprising that domination has yet to happen.

    Twat.

  39. Use the Arabian peninsula as the basis for quid pro quo policies.

    When Christian and Jewish schools are allowed in Saudi Arabia, Muslim schools can be permitted here. Confront them with their own standards of cuntishness.

    Polishing our libertarian haloes with sighs isn’t going to work with these nasties. Islam (submission) and liberty are incompatible.

  40. “Garath: What makes today’s Islam so bizzaire is that Muslim countries had a glorious flowering of scientific investigation 1000-odd years ago while Christendom was wallowing in mud.”

    Muslims conquered the Eastern Roman Empire and were astounded at what they found. Their ‘flourishing’ was an imitation of Greco-Roman civilisation – not something new and original.

  41. “Muslim countries had a glorious flowering of scientific investigation 1000-odd years ago”: somewhat exaggerated, mind.

  42. Jgh: the so called “glorious flowering of Islam ” owed much to the Greek, Copt and Christian Berber communities the Arabs overran and used to administer an empire more sophisticated than their own tribal desert one. Alarmed by the introduction of nonIslamic thought eg Aristotle, the philosopher Al- Ghazzali was able to persuade the religious authorities that to believe in reason, cause and effect, inductive-deductive thought was to place a limit on Allah the all powerful. Thence forward for the last thousand years the relgious authorities of Islam have been very keen to label excursions into science and enquiry as heresy which is why Islam majority countries are such backward shitholes and why only one Muslim working outside his country of origin has won a Nobel Prize in Chemistry, compare and contrast with a single British university 92 (Cambridge).

  43. @Larnald

    “You’d think that with a quarter of the world’s population adherent in one way or another to Islamic teachings, then total domination would have happened ages ago.”

    Soon, soon. We have had the technical edge and the organisational edge and the demographics have not been too bad. But wait on Lawrence – exciting times coming to a town near you.

    People like you hate people like us so bad that you will align yourselves with the most unpleasant religion there is (even moderate Muslim countries treat women appallingly, ditto gays, ditto Hindu and Sikhs and Jews, ditto apostates) because you think it helps you win against us. You think once you’ve destroyed the nuclear family and the culture of the west and capitalism that you’ll be able to fight off the Islamists, but it’s the family and the culture and capitalism which had kept us ahead.

  44. It’s never the Ahmadi Muslims that cause any bother in Western Europe ( that chemistry Nobel winner was one such ), rarely Shia, and almost always the other one.
    It’s like blaming uranium for the trouble it has caused when you can narrow it down to one the isotope.

    Btw, if you have the chance, visit an open day at an Ahmadi mosque. They are eccentric and tolerant, which on personality grounds makes them British imv.

  45. We can argue ad infinitium about whether islam had a glorious past, what we have now would happily plunge humanity into a new dark age.

    I don’t know about you, but my life has been saved by the application of science at least a dozen times, without countingnthe easier living conditions we enjoy through technology.

    If we revert to a theocracy, the likes of which persecuted Galileo we can say goodbye to all that. Anybody dieing of impacted wisdow teeth will be suffering allah’s will.
    If we can avoid that fate we might even defeat ageing within two to three generations, yeah the question of the day might well be how to decide when you’ve had enough life.

    As I said before, we’re accustomed to not having to draw a line because nobody before wanted to walk around Tesco’s with a live flamethrower, or go walking through the local park with a couple of wolverines. Maybe it would be fun to release a few honey-badgers in the local park just to see what happens.

    Back in reality we have a religious code which not just sanctions but demands violence against non believers, it’s like taking your chances in a minefield, you never know when the next one’s going to go off and we don’t need it.

  46. “Well, I suppose we can all stick staunchly to our liberal principles. Whilst they’re still permitted.”

    OK let’s not stick to them. And what exactly have we got left?

  47. “Muslim countries had a glorious flowering of scientific investigation 1000-odd years ago while Christendom was wallowing in mud”

    Total bullshit. Islam destroyed the classical civilisation of the middle east and north africa. It isn’t surprising that it stole a few things along the way.

  48. “Back in reality we have a religious code which not just sanctions but demands violence against non believers, it’s like taking your chances in a minefield, you never know when the next one’s going to go off and we don’t need it.”

    Correct. We should stop importing muslims asap, and we should make illegal the practice of that religion. This would provide a reason to deport those muslims who think the religion more important than living in western europe

  49. “People like you hate people like us so bad that you will align yourselves with the most unpleasant religion there is (even moderate Muslim countries treat women appallingly, ditto gays, ditto Hindu and Sikhs and Jews, ditto apostates) because you think it helps you win against us. You think once you’ve destroyed the nuclear family and the culture of the west and capitalism that you’ll be able to fight off the Islamists, but it’s the family and the culture and capitalism which had kept us ahead.”

    Absolutely! Good post

  50. Ljh – sermons in English? Why?
    Whats wrong with sermons in another native language? Have a number of friends who do not speak English though they can read it. A sermon in English would be wasted on them, too much information they could not get.

    Here’s an idea people – perhaps we keep religion out of the state schools? First of course defining religion – plenty of belief systems that state schools teach already outside of RE lessons.
    If the religions want schools they can provide them. As private schools supported by those wanting them.
    A CofE diocese can perhaps support a school, or for the poorer ones perhaps a school between them.

  51. “OK let’s not stick to them [liberal principles]. And what exactly have we got left?”

    A less than ideal society; one that we know, from experience, we can recover from – once we have dealt with the problem (infection by Islam). Can you point to a society (one you’d want to live in) that has recovered (i.e. progressed) from Islamic domination?

    We don’t have to be as bad as they are, we just have to accept that they are so very bad that we must be less than we’d like to be in order to deal with them. Godwin inhibits the obvious analogy, so perhaps this one will work for you:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gVlmenGrLc

    The gutter, indeed.

  52. It depends whether you think islam really is a religion of peace and we have nothing to fear from their cultural subversion and growing numbers, or whether you regard islam as a threat to western civilisation. I’m quite happy to class islam as a special ideology, not unlike Nazism, that is treated as an enemy to our nation. And I really don’t care if the “good germans” will be hurt by that collective punishment.

  53. Bloke in Costa Rica

    “…Islamic countries do not import and translate other countries books…

    Adelard of Bath’s 12th century translation of Euclid’s Elements, which had been lost to the West, was from Arabic.”

    They might have at one time. They don’t any more. Spain translates more books in a single year than the whole Arab Middle East has since the fall of the Abassid Caliphate.

    We shouldn’t be treating Islam as just another phenotype of the Abrahamic faith genotype. It’s worthy of about as much tolerance as Aztec human sacrifice.

  54. @ PJF

    “When Christian and Jewish schools are allowed in Saudi Arabia, Muslim schools can be permitted here. Confront them with their own standards of cuntishness.”

    Except that you’re imposing those standards of cuntishness on the people who are have chosen not to live in the cuntish countries. So allowing for those few who want the UK to adopt Saudi cuntishness, you’re mainly imposing someone else’s standards of cuntishness.

  55. TTG: ‘Except that you’re imposing those standards of cuntishness on the people who are have chosen not to live in the cuntish countries. So allowing for those few who want the UK to adopt Saudi cuntishness, you’re mainly imposing someone else’s standards of cuntishness.’

    It’s not ‘a few’. This is the problem.

  56. “OK let’s not stick to them [liberal principles]. And what exactly have we got left?”

    ‘A less than ideal society; one that we know, from experience, we can recover from – once we have dealt with the problem (infection by Islam)’

    Aah but that’s the point. Fascists always always have ‘a problem’ to be dealt with, a crisis to be resolved. In fact you depend on permanent crisis. That is why all the fascist dictators have permanent unseen enemies, Hitler, Stalin, Chavez, Mugabe, Franco, Trump (ha ha). And they always proceed with their ‘less than ideal’ societies.

  57. “Muslim countries had a glorious flowering of scientific investigation 1000-odd years”

    Hardly. They retained some Greek texts and perpetuated some Greek knowledge that was meantime lost in Europe, which hardly amounts to a ‘flowering of scientific investigation.’ Custodians at best. Their own discoveries were so pitifully few that the same examples, embarrasingly, have to be cited again and again. It’s as if the invention of the sandwich were the only achievement of the English, which we must now endlessly extol.

    Also it was 1000 fucking years ago.

  58. What is with this idiocy of trying to make out that islam was some shining light to the world a thousand years ago, how is that relevant today? We need to assess the risk that islam poses today.

    It goes against the grain to ban things, but as per above, would we be happy with Aztecs importing their bloodthirsty religion? We’d have SJW saying that it they’ve got a long histroy of flinging headless bodies down steps and we should leave them alone, maybe even that a 1000 years ago they made huge advances in agriculture.

    If people want to abandon the cuntishness of islamic countries to build civilised lives in the West then it isn’t too big an ask to leave the cuntish religion behind which creates the cuntish living standards in the cuntish country they’ve come from.
    I’m perfectly happy to have people from around the world come to live in Britain so long as they don’t do barbarous acts like foot binding, clit cutting, or islam.

    Now that the subject of human sacrifice has been raised, maybe islam does demand it. Ignore what they say and watch what they do and it could look like there’s a shitload of human sacrifice going on.

  59. “Their own discoveries were so pitifully few that the same examples, embarrasingly, have to be cited again and again”

    For instance, any science/mathematics programme on the BBC hosted by Jim Al-Khalili. – or anyone else for that matter.

  60. Imagine yourself observing the world in about 1100. The (Western) Roman Empire had collapsed following its adoption of Christianity and successive barbarian invasions from the East and West. Europe had been a dark and primitive place for 700 years. Meanwhile, scholarship and science flourished in the Islamic world. It seems that Christianity was a backward and harmful religion.

    Fast-forward to 2000. We see that Islamic scholarship and science collapsed following a wave of barbarian invasions from the East and Northwest and the rise of anti-rationalist theology, and the Arab world has been a dark and primitive place for 700 years. It seems that Islam is a backward and harmful religion.

    Taking these two observations together, my conclusion is that religions are not immutable in their effect on scientific progress.

  61. OK sjw,

    Tell me all about contributions to telecoms, computing, vaccines, go ahead, knock yourself out….. Waiting….

    Now tell me something good about Islam. Tell me how it’s different to other deadly threats we face today.

  62. Unfortunately we don’t have the luxury of 1000 years of perspective into the future. From here Islam looks like an exceedingly dangerous religion and importing muslims looks criminally negligent and insane. I’m happy to act on that

  63. “OK let’s not stick to them. And what exactly have we got left?”

    The ability to return to them, as we have in the past, when the threat has been defeated. Was life in WW2 Britain all that ‘liberal’? Of course it wasn’t. The State took overall control of just about everything and told people what to do to the extent that it forcibly made people fight via conscription. It told them where they could live, what they could eat, where they should work, all necessary restrictions on individual rights in order to defend the overall continued existence of the nation.

    No nation can defend itself against an ‘us or them’ foe (which is what we face in Islam) by tying its hands behind its back with legal restrictions.

  64. “Taking these two observations together, my conclusion is that religions are not immutable in their effect on scientific progress.”

    Had they been two ‘observations’ rather than anti-religious opinions dressed up as observation your statement might have carried more weight. Likewise, had they been statements leading to your conclusion rather than just preceding a non-sequitur.

  65. Actually sjw defeats himself.

    If Islam was enlightened a millennium ago it’s going backwards.

    I’m going to set up the church of Qetzlcoatl, peace be upon him, decapitation is apparently OK in a religious setting. May you be in pieces.

  66. Ironman: I don’t see how it’s anti-religious to observe that Islam was more progressive than Christianity in one era, and Christianity much more progressive in another.

    The problem with Muslims killing Christians isn’t a problem with religion, it’s a problem with killers. The same applies to the much more numerous killings of Muslims by Christians. And to the vastly more numerous killings of Muslims by Muslims and Christians by Christians.

  67. People like you hate people like us so bad that you will align yourselves with the most unpleasant religion there is

    Then you don’t know about religion, and you have no self-awareness.

    A gossamer thin, disparate and ramshackle organisation that entice psychotics and sociopaths to do what they think is ‘holy’ is utterly different to religious adherence. They peddle a nihilistic delusion and attach language to acts which enables the cult leaders to describe terrorism as a mundane reality.

    All you guys’ hatred of Islam is not based on fact. My point about 25% of the world’s population seeing themselves as Muslim simply doesn’t equate with your standpoints.

    There’d be bombings every few minutes, say, in France.

    It’s fucking scary that you wish for collective punishment of Muslims simply because of a couple of thousand (at most) hardcore nutters.

    Meanwhile, the UK is totally complicit in the destruction of Yemen.

    Fucking Christians, coming over here, riding roughshod over indigenous druids.

  68. “The problem with Muslims killing Christians isn’t a problem with religion, it’s a problem with killers.”

    No, it’s a problem with Islam. Killing, taking and otherwise oppressing people who aren’t muslims is part of the religion. The whole history of Islam is the crushing of other belief systems and the gradual eradication of people with different points of view.

    “The same applies to the much more numerous killings of Muslims by Christians”

    “Christians” (by which I assume you mean the largely secular West), are better at killing muslims than muslims are at killing us, because we have better technology and better trained armies.

    This does not change the fact that Islam exists in order to create an Islamic world and that Islam intends only destruction and death for those who believe in different things.

    There is no other equivalent belief system in the world at the moment

  69. @Larnald

    ‘A gossamer thin, disparate and ramshackle organisation that entice psychotics and sociopaths to do what they think is ‘holy’ is utterly different to religious adherence.’

    Okay so I guess you’re talking about ISIS (though it could be the Taliban, AQ in its various guises, Boko Haram, or any number of murderous Islamist terrorist groups in various parts of the world). You’re wrong about ISIS, and you don’t understand it, but I’ll ignore that because I didn’t mention ISIS. I said: ‘you will align yourselves with the most unpleasant religion there is (even moderate Muslim countries treat women appallingly, ditto gays, ditto Hindu and Sikhs and Jews, ditto apostates)’

    I grew up in a Muslim country, and I’ve visited many of them. There are fifty-odd of them. Name me ten which treat women, gays, Hindus, Sikhs, Jews, and apostates well.

    ‘All you guys’ hatred of Islam is not based on fact.’

    I don’t ‘hate’ ‘Islam’, I hate Islamists – based on the experience I have lived and what I have seen. I couldn’t give a shit if people wish to eschew pork and beer, and pray to the east five times a day. I couldn’t give a shit if women wish to wear burqas. I do give a shit when women are forced to wear burqas, and other absurd religious customs and cultural practices are forced upon other people.

    Your bullshit about 25% of the world’s population and bombings every few minutes in France is just that – bullshit. There are small muslim ghettoes in France. The police don’t go there, and the writ of the Koran runs, but as yet those who would do the rest of the French harm haven’t the confidence or the materiel to move outside. But wait. We have the watches, they have the time.

    ‘It’s fucking scary that you wish for collective punishment of Muslims simply because of a couple of thousand (at most) hardcore nutters.’

    It would be, if I ‘wished for collective punishment of Muslims’, but I don’t and have never said I do. You’re just a liar. A lot of muslims would agree with my position entirely. The problem is that a lot would vehemently disagree, and they’re getting very fucking uppity about it.

    You’re also wrong. There are not ‘a couple of thousand (at most) hardcore nutters’. ISIS alone has 80-100,000 nutters. How many ‘nutters’ do you think it takes to corral and sexually enslave 3000 Yazidi women? You cunt.

    @SJW

    ‘Taking these two observations together, my conclusion is that religions are not immutable in their effect on scientific progress.’

    Is that your conclusion? Thanks for sharing. Christianity and Christians gave us some of the world’s greatest art, music, literature, and architecture, and a way to live your life – the 10 Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount – which is hard to beat, certainly in terms of the effect on others. What in the living fuck has Islam given us by comparison?

    And to be honest, I don’t give a shit. They could have invented time travel, whisky and fanny mags, and I still wouldn’t like the fact that they (mostly) either murder, or restrict, or otherwise treat badly women, gays, Hindus, Sikhs, Jews, and apostates. You will continue to excuse them until your own daughter is in the firing line. Probably even then.

    Anyway, fuck you. Your way of thinking is so conservative and 1980s/90s. Probably sounded good on Red Wedge tours, and on the pro-Palestine marches, but people are waking up.

  70. @SJW ‘When Arabs kill Westerners it shows that their religion is evil, and when Westerners kill Arabs it shows that their weapons are good?

    That’s sick.’

    It’s not ‘sick’. He implied no moral preference, it was simply a statement of fact.

    Also, what’s with this ‘Arabs’ bollocks?

  71. He implied no moral preference

    Further up the thread he backed murdering maybe a million people by nuking Mecca, as a start.

    His moral preference is for killing Muslims. Mine is for killing no one. Which side are you on?

  72. “His moral preference is for killing Muslims. Mine is for killing no one. Which side are you on?”

    When faced with an evil ideology doing nothing is not an option. We slaughtered millions of Germans, a fraction of whom were actual Nazis, in order to rid the world of that ideological virus.Eventually the same will have to occur with Islam if things continue the way they are. The only way to avoid such a nightmare scenario is to take what would be considered harsh steps now, in order to prevent such an escalation to all out war. Consider it the equivalent of the Reoccupation of the Rhineland response. Do nothing, no-one dies, everyone’s happy, then WW2 happens, millions die. Do something, people will die. But maybe then WW2 doesn’t happen, and millions are saved.

    The more people like you refuse to accept action now, the more you condemn us and future generations to misery and death, just as the Appeasers in the 1930s condemned millions of Europeans to death by refusing to confront an evil ideology when they could have (relatively) cheaply defeated it.

  73. “Further up the thread he backed murdering maybe a million people by nuking Mecca, as a start.”

    It depends what you think Islam is. I happen to think that it is an imminent and direct threat to Western Civilisation, which I happen to quite like. I think that we are on the brink of unavoidable war with Islam and I don’t think Western Civilisation will be around afterwards if we lose. We are facing a battle for our survival against Islam. In this context I don’t have any problem with attacking first while we have the advantage.

    You on the other hand don’t seem to have any cultural preference, seem to feel that everything will balance out given a good 1000 years, and aren’t worried all that much about the possibility of Europe becoming part of the Islamic world. Because Christianity had a dark age over 100 years ago, or something.

    “His moral preference is for killing Muslims. Mine is for killing no one. Which side are you on?”

    I’m on the side of the continuation of Western civilisation and against an Islamic Europe. Why wouldn’t you be?

    My preference is for muslims to be killed over non Muslims. I think that conflict is inevitable and so no death is not an option hat is available.

    I would be very happy if Islam had a reformation and turned sane, and if the Islamic countries of the world stopped being nightmarish shitholes driving deranged nutters into Europe. I would be overjoyed if the Middle East became a normal, secular, well off kind of place that I could visit and look at the ruins without worrying about being thrown in jail on some crazy pretext, or being taken hostage and then beheaded by a nutter in the desert

  74. Non of this matters. There will be another Blair another BBC and you all will vote for more of the same. Yet again.
    And dissent will be racist. Etc Etc Etc.

  75. “”How is Islam an imminent and direct threat to Western Civilization? Given that “we have better technology and better trained armies”.”

    You are being purposefully thick, but I will explan in case anyone else is reading:

    1. Demographics. Importing Muslims changes the demographics of the country in favour of Muslims and makes it more Islamic. Islamic countries are experiencing a emographic bulge at the moment. European countries are experiencing a demographic decline. Population change can take place very quickly in this situation is the bulge population is allowed to move into the territory of the declining population.

    2. The genocidal nature of Islam. Islam traditionally eradicates populations by moving into their territory, converting some, and slowly murdering, raping and oppressing the rest over a long time period. For example Christians in the middle east, Yazidis in the Middle East, Zoroastrians in the Middle East, Hindus and Sikhs in the Indian subcontinent.

    3. Unconventional warfare. Islamic forces in recent times show no desire to fight pitched battles with modern armies. Instead they kill and terrorise, moving and hiding among the civilian population. This is what they will do in Europe also, and it will be aided by the demographic change referred to above.

    4. Economics and growth. The economies of Islamic countries are going to grow rapidly, while in the West growth is slow. Even if we somehow manage to limit or stop/reverse demographic change, there will come a time in the not so distant future when the armies of the Middle East rival those of the West. It is happening already in Saudi Arabia and the UAE with Israeli and American help. Once these countries are stong enough, and with the excess of angry young men that a demographic bulge entails, we will see wars involving Middle Eastern armes. Some will be between competing regional powers like Iran and SA. Other, probably later wars, will be against different cultural blocks which are traditional enemies of Islam and these are likely to unite individual Islamic countries under the flag of Islam. Likely targets (traditional enemies) include India, the Orthodox world (mostly Russia these days), and Western Europe.

  76. I suppose you’re being thick only because you can’t help it.

    1) Muslims are now about 4.5% of the UK population. And most of them are strongly in favour of Western Civilization.

    2) Islam has eradicated the Hindu population of India? You mean there are only a billion or so left.

    3) Terrorism isn’t an existential threat to Western Civilization unless we become uncivilized in response to it. Your advocacy of the mass murder of Muslims would make us uncivilized, if there were any danger of your getting your way.

    4) You’re saying that the Islamic world is emerging from its 700-year slump? Good. If we’re afraid of the Saudi army, let’s stop selling them arms. I think it unlikely that Saudi Arabia and Iran will go to war, but if they did, why should you care?

  77. “Muslims are now about 4.5% of the UK population. And most of them are strongly in favour of Western Civilization.”

    Studies of Muslim social attitudes show that they are considerably opposed to many basic premises of modern Western societies – freedom of speech on religious matters, attitudes to women and sexual minorities, attitudes to people who leave Islam, attitudes to non-Muslims. There is absolutely no basis either in Islamic theory, or in practice, of Muslims being able to operate in an evenhanded manner when in positions of power over Muslims and non-Muslims. They will always favour their own co-religionists over the non-Muslim population – we have seen this in Tower Hamlets and and the schools scandal in Birmingham, and in the child abuse scandals accross the country.

    How much more evidence do you have to have put before you that Muslims can’t/won’t do ‘fair shares’ when they have the whip hand?

  78. SJW, arguing dishonestly doesn’t help to convince anyone of your positions, and lying to yourself isn’t good for your general well being.

  79. How much more evidence do you have to have put before you…

    What evidence? All I’ve read here is assertion.

    There’s a quite recent survey of UK muslim attitudes. It found, for example, that 4% “sympathise with people who commit terrorist actions”. That’s 4% too many, but it doesn’t make British Muslims in general “evil”. It’s no more a justification for nuking Mecca than minority Irish Catholic support for IRA terrorism was a justification for nuking Rome.

  80. @SJW: I can’t make head nor tail of that link its just raw data.

    Here is the ICM poll of Muslim social attitudes, as published in the Guardian:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law

    Half of Muslims think homosexuality should be illegal, nearly a quarter support Sharia law being introduced to Britain, only 80% condemned partially or wholly the stoning of adulterers, 40% said wives should obey their husbands, and 30% said polygamy should be legal.

    And these are the views you think are compatible with Western society?

  81. They’re the same survey: I linked to the full data rather than a newspaper summary.

    I don’t agree with those minority views. But it’s compatible with Western society for some people to hold unpopular views.

    If we’re going to expel people for their barbaric opinions, let’s start with anyone advocating the mass-murder of civilians in pre-emptive nuclear attacks.

  82. You were the one who said that British Muslims were ‘Strongly in favour of Western Civilisation’. I don’t think there is a shred of evidence for that conclusion from the ICM poll. They’re in favour of an Islamic state of some sort for sure, but Western liberal Democracy, not so much.

  83. The ICM poll didn’t ask them what they think of Western Civilization. But they’ve chosen to live here. And a clear majority:
    – condemn minor crime in political protests
    – condemn violence in political protests
    – condemn threats of terrorist action
    – condemn radical groups
    – condemn terrorism
    and so on.

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