Well, this isn’t certain to say the least

NFL quarterback Colin Kaepernick said that Donald Trump’s suggestion to “find a country that works better for him” is “very ignorant”.

“It’s a very ignorant statement that, if you don’t agree with what’s going on, hearing that if you want justice and liberty and freedom for all, then you should leave the country,” Kaepernick said on Tuesday.

“He always says make America great again. Well, America has never been great for people of colour. And that’s something that needs to be addressed. Let’s make America great for the first time,” he said in a video shared by the Bay Area News Group.

Great compared to what? Compared to the average life in West or Central Africa over the past two centuries? Today? Compared to the average life anywhere two centuries ago?

Barring the occasional President or dictator (but I repeat myself) I’m not sure there’s anyone in West Africa currently living the lifestyle of an NFL quarterback.

Compared to how whites have been treated in the US these past two centuries yes, undoubtedly the blacks have been shafted. But what’s the correct comparison to be making about declaring somewhere “great?” There is at least an argument that a society in which even those shafted live better than almost any member of any previous human generation is doing pretty great. Even those getting shafted with nothing but the scraps of the welfare state are in the top 20% of the global income distribution (yes, after price changes across geography). Is that great or not?

No, not whether it could be greater, obviously every human construct could be that. But great or not?

35 thoughts on “Well, this isn’t certain to say the least”

  1. Lincoln wanted to return the freed slaves to west Africa. If he had got his way, the US would be a happier place today. West Africa, however, would still be a shithole.

  2. Julia – yes, but he’s got afro hair, which is all that matters. It takes only a touch of the tarbrush to guarantee victim status. And not even that if you are Rachel Dolezal.

  3. Is this the same USA which has or has recently had a black president, black secretaries of state, black attorneys general, very many black senators, congressmen, mayors and councilmen, many black judges (inc on the Supreme Court), thousands of black lawyers, thousands of black doctors and surgeons, thousands of black police officers and police chiefs, black heads of various federal and state administrative bodies, thousands of black teachers and black headteachers, black college professors and administrators, many black TV and print journalists and editors and anchormen/women, billionaire and multi-millionaire black businessmen, billionaire and multi-millionaire black music moguls, billionaire and multi-millionaire black TV stars, many multi-millionaire black film stars, many multi-millionaire black sports stars, and a longstanding commitment to affirmative action which allows blacks into many positions in academia and other public positions from which whites with similar attainments would be barred?

    Is it that USA?

    I don’t like racists, or racism. I also don’t like whiners and liars, and to make matters worse I think the whining and the lying (and the affirmative action) helps to create the racism.

  4. The Other Bloke in Italy

    Sometimes my memory surprises me. It was in the early 1970s that I read, in the New Statesman no less, that New York blacks on welfare were better off than lower middle class Swedes.

  5. TW patronisingly instructs disadvantaged Black Americans that the “correct comparison” to make is not with their fellow Americans (in the most consumerist country on earth) but with people living on nothing thousands of miles away.This is sensible (not). People should strive to keep up with the Jones’s ,not in their own ambit, but on a statistical basis , taking in the entire world population ! TW always sees the best in people doesn’t he?
    Maybe some blacks think that, considering all the work they’ve done over the centuries, including a significant amount of getting your balls blown off in the Army (strictly segregated much to the amusement of the Nazis), they have earned more economic equality.

  6. “Even those getting shafted with nothing but the scraps of the welfare state are in the top 20% of the global income distribution (yes, after price changes across geography). Is that great or not?”

    No, it’s not. It’s great if those who are just naturally handed the shitty end of the stick do that well. It’s not great if people are being forced down to that level through no fault or failing of their own.

    I don’t think it can ever not be a very good sign that much is being done right in such a country, but the argument that people are better off by being worse off than they should be, in that same country, absent some failing in the system just doesn’t stand up when expressed clearly.

  7. DBC Reed/Dave – I’ve just given you a very long list of black people who’ve done very well in the USA, you daft racist cunts. If Thomas Sowell can come out of poverty in Harlem, and become an economics professor, there’s no systemic restriction on blacks from Harlem becoming economis professors – its a question of ability and hard work. Ditto Colin Powell just down the road in the Bronx, or Clarence Thomas out of Pin Point, Georgia. You twats genuinely believe that blacks can’t succeed without a helping hand from whitey, even when there are many examples which give the lie to this.

    Too many black parents don’t value their kids, or their kids’ education, and have listened for too long to bigoted wankers like you pair telling them they have no hope unless ‘something is done’.

  8. So Much For Subtlety

    Surreptitious Evil – “Kaepernick has a white mother, an immediately-he-was-born-absent black father, and white adoptive parents.”

    Like Obama, another less-than-authentic-half-Black man, he seems to be working out his issues with his absent father and perhaps his mother as well.

    He owes everything to White people who cared for him. But he sides with the Black father who abandoned him.

  9. > yes, but he’s got afro hair

    Ahh, the old pencil test.

    > “find a country that works better for him”

    It is a terrible argument.

    > America has never been great for people of colour.

    Things would improve markedly if they’d just stop shooting each other.

  10. @Dave, I suspect there are a few million African farmers that would jump at the chance to be forced to live on US minimum wage or welfare.
    In any case, care to back up your assertions with some specifics showing blacks are forced onto welfare through racism? Given Interested’s long list of the ones ‘permitted’ to succeed, and not joining BLM?

  11. Dave – “It’s not great if people are being forced down to that level through no fault or failing of their own.”

    If. It is a wonderful word. Doing a lot of hard work in that sentence there. What makes you think that anyone in the US is being “forced down” through no fault of their own? For a start, forced down? You mean not lifted up as much as they might have been, don’t you? If Blacks were not getting some $3 trillion in welfare, how rich do you think they would be?

    As for faults of their own, by chance I happened to watch Straight Out of Compton recently. Being, of course, a big NWA fan. But I could not help notice that the film seems to have been made by the Ku Klux Klan or a secret cabal of Nazis. Apart from the obnoxious Jewish music executive who is the source of many of their problems, and a little bit of token (but entirely justifiable in the circumstances) police misbehaviour, their problems were shown as being entirely their fault. I kept wondering when the film was going to stop showing Black Americans as retarded violent thugs with poor impulse control and instead show us the impediments that are holding Blacks back. But they never did. Their problems were entirely of their own making or that of their fellow Blacks. Oh, and that Jewish guy.

    Which is pretty accurate I would guess.

  12. It’s worth pointing out who Kaepernick is (I’m a bit of an NFL fan).

    He’s the second-string quarterback from a struggling team, who got dropped last season because he played so badly.

    He’s been replaced by a quarterback that one of the worst, most struggling teams in the NFL was happy to get rid of. Who also happens to look very white.

    To me, his protest just looks like a pathetic attempt to stay in the limelight because he can’t cut it on the field.

  13. Cynic – “To me, his protest just looks like a pathetic attempt to stay in the limelight because he can’t cut it on the field.”

    See also Michael Sam.

  14. Wow, people round here really don’t do basic logic when it challenges their preconceptions…

    I never said anything about what is the case. I merely pointed out the flaw in Tim’s logic. That the poorest people in a society do better than some richer ones in some other society is simply unconnected to whether in that society the poorest are those who deserve to be.

  15. I think you’re missing the point, Dave (not for the first time). The left likes to think of ‘black people’ as one homogenous lump. Thus it’s perfectly fair (on their terms only, not in reality) to compare ‘African Americans’ with Africans.

    It’s racist bollocks, but there it is – the left’s racist, we know that.

  16. “the left’s racist, we know that.”

    Yes, it’s not like I’m going to argue with that.

    “it’s perfectly fair (on their terms only, not in reality) to compare ‘African Americans’ with Africans”

    Well, no. Actually, I don’t know about fair. But it makes no sense. We want to know whether the US is as good for ‘African Americans’ – what a nonsense term – as it should be, not if it’s better for them than somewhere terrible for… er… not-American Africans.

  17. Dave – “That the poorest people in a society do better than some richer ones in some other society is simply unconnected to whether in that society the poorest are those who deserve to be.”

    I disagree. Not every country has a just distribution of wealth. Africa is poor because all the African countries have a very unjust distribution of wealth. The wealthy of Africa do not deserve their wealth – the richest person in Africa is the daughter of the President of Angola for instance.

    Is that true of America? Let us assume it isn’t. Let us assume that the distribution is a lot more fair, if not entirely fair. Would we expect Blacks to be poorer than Whites? They test poorly on IQ tests so yes we would. Would we expect them to be richer than Africans? Yes we would – as long as America is more just.

    Basically what we see is what reasonable people would expect.

    Dave – “We want to know whether the US is as good for ‘African Americans’ – what a nonsense term – as it should be, not if it’s better for them than somewhere terrible for… er… not-American Africans.”

    Why? To tell whether America is as good as it should be for African Americans we would have to ask what African Americans produce. If they produce a lot and are denied the fruits of their labour, then that is wrong. But actually we know what African Americans produce – virtually nothing. There aren’t even more than a few thousand African American farmers. On the other hand trillions have been taken from White workers and given to Blacks.

    So it looks to me like African Americans are much richer than they “should” be. Why would you think different communities should produce equal outcomes?

  18. Kaepernick has a white mother, an immediately-he-was-born-absent black father, and white adoptive parents.

    And, like his President who also had a white mother and an absent black father, has a massive chip on his shoulder. Why, it’s almost as if kids need a father!

  19. ‘America has never been great for people of colour.’

    I bet he said ‘color.’

    America has no duty to be great for anyone. The function of government is to secure the blessings of liberty for its citizens.

    Totalitarian statists, aka the Left, tinker with government and the marketplace in order to make if ‘fairer,’ the focus on outcome, rather than opportunity. Kaeperdick cries that it isn’t working.

    Well, duh, it can’t work. So the totstats solution? MORE government.

  20. Gamecock>

    The allegation is that the government is failing to secure the ‘blessings of liberty’ equally for all citizens. It would be nice if you lot would actually debate the proposition being put forwards.

    SMFS>

    No surprise to see you can’t follow a chain of simple logic. I’ve never brought up the actual facts on the ground because they haven’t been relevant to anything I’ve said. The suggestion has repeatedly been made here that there is no space for the allegations we’re talking about to exist in in fact. I’ve demonstrated the existence of the space and left it at that.

  21. So Kaepernick, a black man, got into an NFL squad on merit, presumably and is paid an enormous salary. This is discrimination? Is he suggesting that it would have been easier if he were white? It does not appear so when you look at the proportions of black players in the NFL and in the general US population. Where I live it is certainly easier to become a cricket international if you are black because 6 places are reserved for black people, three of whom must be black African, whatever that might mean. So white boys are competing for 5 places and black ones for 11. That’s racism for you, Kaepernick.

  22. ‘It would be nice if you lot would actually debate the proposition being put forwards.’

    The proposition put forwards is ‘America has never been great for people of colour.’

    That is just stupid. MOST people of color in the U.S. are doing quite well.

  23. Dave

    Blacks in the US have equal liberty because they have equality in and before the law and socially they have equality of opportunity (in the non-socialist sense). If they collectively choose to disadvantage themselves by continuing to reproduce in fatherless families, and by resorting to criminal careers, they disadvantage themselves in opportunity-rich societies like the US.

  24. SE: a quarter? Of the $19 million average annual salary, the $61 million guaranteed, the $12 million signing bonus, or the $114 million overall contract. Perhaps you meant “hundredth”.

    This is almost as nauseating as some daft Hollywood bimbette complaining about the fictional gender pay gap while pulling down twenty mill a year.

  25. Dave – “I’ve never brought up the actual facts on the ground because they haven’t been relevant to anything I’ve said.”

    Sure. Because, as we all know, you are full of sh!t and make even more sh!t up. The facts are not your friend.

    “The suggestion has repeatedly been made here that there is no space for the allegations we’re talking about to exist in in fact. I’ve demonstrated the existence of the space and left it at that.”

    No you have not. You have been your usual ar$e-like self and left it at that. Not an impressive performance. Even for you.

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