Err, yes, that’s rather the point Vernon

But the irony is that, contrary to the hopes of many Brexiteers, leaving the EU will expose Britain to more globalisation, not less; and in a more competitive and harsher world it will be the “left behind”, those most likely to have voted for Brexit, who will suffer the most.

We want unilateral free trade with everyone. Getting out from under the EU’s limitations on doing so is one of the reasons for leaving.

22 thoughts on “Err, yes, that’s rather the point Vernon”

  1. The Pedant-General

    “But the irony is that, contrary to the hopes of many Brexiteers, leaving the EU will expose Britain to more globalisation, not less”

    But his point remains true – the Brexit vote is undoubtedly the right result, but I’d wager that a good proportion of the 52% who did vote for it were not voting for more globalisation of trade.

    Your regular readers here – and the few articulate Brexit voters I have encountered in the real world – understood this, but it was not at all how the argument was presented during the campaign. Indeed, I voted “Leave” very much despite the campaign. I had to grit my teeth to do so.

  2. Who is “we”?

    2/3 of leave voters want fewer foreigners and are prepared to accept less trade to get it.

  3. Once more this assumption almost all Leave voters don’t know what they are doing!

    If all those voters are anti-free trade, how is it that Labour has less votes than the pro-trade Tories?

  4. These bloody arrogant ivory tower elitists who assume that the proles are a bunch of thickies that don’t know what’s good for them.

    The reality is that the only people crying are people in places like London and Oxford, which are hugely about the public sector in its various disguises.

    I went to see a rather splendid film recently, When Marnie Was There, made by Studio Ghibli. And before it came on, I got a “supported by EU Film Fund”. Why is the EU supporting a Japanese made movie? I don’t know. But you know that there’s staff in London who are doling out cash or running the Twitter feed or whatever. Well, they’re now going to be looking for another job. Maybe the distributors of Ghibli’s films (also, undoubtedly in London) know that life might be a bit harder for them.

    The fact is, every entrepreneur I know, everyone with a free market business (rather than something living on protectionism) is pro-Brexit.

  5. The Pedant-General,

    “Your regular readers here – and the few articulate Brexit voters I have encountered in the real world – understood this, but it was not at all how the argument was presented during the campaign. ”

    I don’t remember much talk about trade protectionism. Immigration and spending on the EU itself seemed to be bigger topics.

  6. I voted Exit not because of free trade, immigrants, Britain is best or anything like that.
    I voted Exit because all the polls said Remain would win, had the polls said the opposite I would have voted Remain.

    I, along with a lot of other people, voted to poke the hornets nest.

    Whilst those at the top are buzzing around blaming each other for the monumental cockup that they brought upon themselves, they aren’t hassling me.

  7. davy

    “Who is “we”?

    2/3 of leave voters want fewer foreigners and are prepared to accept less trade to get it.”

    That’s nonsense.

    There has been a 30% – 50% move for Leave for the last 30 years or more (check Mori/others).

    That has been about democracy, sovereignty, getting control back from the EU, and similar issues.

    “Migration” has only been relevant as a significant issue in the last 5 years or so, hence UKIP making hay with it. And sure, no question, it lifted the Leave vote this time round to some extent. But “2/3rds of the Leave vote” – you’re talking rubbish.

    Whatever the current media might try and tell you, use some intuition.

  8. The Inimitable Steve

    But, clearly, the EU cannot conclude a trade agreement with another country until that country ceases to be a member, and it is highly unlikely that a detailed trade agreement can be achieved within two years.

    Nah. That’s not clear at all. There’s no reason why they can’t negotiate both at the same time and conclude a trade deal in two years. Unless they wish to be deliberately obstinate.

    It’s not rocket surgery.

    When, in 1985, Greenland – whose population is smaller than that of Uxbridge, and whose one staple industry is fishing – withdrew, an agreement took three years to negotiate.

    We’re a much higher priority than Greenland.

    But the irony is that, contrary to the hopes of many Brexiteers, leaving the EU will expose Britain to more globalisation, not less; and in a more competitive and harsher world it will be the “left behind”, those most likely to have voted for Brexit, who will suffer the most.

    Depends on what we mean by globalisation. We’re an island so it makes sense to trade freely with other countries. And if the dying EU doesn’t want to buy and sell with us, there are plenty of others who’ll take their place.

    We don’t want free movement of foreign people into Britain, particularly the millions of rapists Merkel invited to Zerg Rush the EU and the worthless beggar-thugs camped out at Calais. Leaving the EU is a necessary – but not sufficient – step towards taking back control of our borders.

    It’s also a hammer blow to the Progressive Narrative, which has been dripping poison into our ears for decades. Its morale value cannot be overstated. Britain is back.

    We, by contrast, have a deep-seated skills problem, first noticed by Joseph Chamberlain – the hero of Nick Timothy, Theresa May’s special adviser – well over 100 years ago. The priority, if May’s socially responsible capitalism is to become a reality, must be a radical skills policy. That means more resources devoted to further education colleges, currently the Cinderellas of the education service, and to university technical colleges, for those whose skills are technical and vocational rather than academic.

    Good idea. Pop the HE bubble. No more funding for degrees in Game of Thrones, Lesbian Windsurfing, Politics or Global Warmiology. Put the money into technical skills and science.

  9. The inimitable Steve:

    ‘ particularly the millions of rapists Merkel invited to Zerg Rush the EU’

    I love that phraseology – speaks to a higher class of contributor…..

  10. @Chester Draws,

    “Once more this assumption almost all Leave voters don’t know what they are doing!”

    I’m not sure I subscribe to this, just that the arguments made weren’t strongly about trade.

    If all those voters are anti-free trade, how is it that Labour has less votes than the pro-trade Tories?

    Because it’s not the position on free trade that is the defining characteristic. Much more likely to be the position on tax rates. Doubly so now that you’d be looking at Comrade Jeremy for PM…

    @Tim Almond

    “I don’t remember much talk about trade protectionism. Immigration and spending on the EU itself seemed to be bigger topics.”

    I think we are vigorously agreeing, most probably due to poor phrasing on my part. My contention is that trade was not part of the argument and that the average leave voter saw immigration as the problem. However, opening up to freer trade to the rest of the world might have similar effects to those at the bottom of the pile, hence the irony.

    I voted leave because I do think we need freer trade but this was rather in spite of the arguments put during the campaign, not because of it.

    In short, I’m part of Tim’s “we”, but I don’t think the average leave voter is or was and I think Tim is wrong to infer that they might have been.

  11. The “left behind”, being poor, spend a larger share of earnings on food. Food costs go down when we leave the EU. So the poor will benefit anyway.

  12. The PG–Global trade is not equivalent with “globalisation”

    Which is takeover of the planet by one world government, CM eco-freaks and spivs –who want corporate socialism and cultural Marxism as the twin pillars of a new and much nastier world–esp if you are white. They are down on white peoples because if their schemes are to be foiled it is the West that alone could do it

  13. There was one thing and one thing only that united Leave voters: the desire to be free of EU control and regain our sovereignty. That having been decided, we’re now free to choose: whether to engage in global free trade or else to hide under the bed and hope the rest of the world goes away – but it will be the UK’s democratic decision which course to follow.

  14. Why do clever people always think that the poor are too thick to know what’s good for them? (Otherwise known as democracy.)

    Cheaper food.

    Restricting semi skilled immigration hands a huge advantage to the indigenous unskilled and semi skilled, so wages will rise.

    The poor know to the penny where their advantage lies. And they are by and large not competing in an international market place, they are competing in their home town.

  15. PF>

    “And sure, no question, it lifted the Leave vote this time round to some extent.”

    No question? I’d say it did the exact opposite: without UKIP making people feel uncomfortable with their anti-immigration stance, it would have been a landslide win for Leave. No party did more to keep Britain in the EU than UKIP, as it turned out – and to be fair that works both ways, no-one did more to bring out the leave vote than the remain campaign.

    As I’ve pointed out a few times, there’s a contradiction in UKIPers belief both that the EU is so obviously terrible that everyone can see we should leave, and that they are responsible for persuading everyone how bad the EU is. They can’t both be true. To my mind it’s obvious the first one is the true one.

  16. “We want unilateral free trade with everyone.”

    No, we want bilateral free trade with everyone.

    Minford may be right about the benefits of unilateral free trade, but no-one can be certain that he is and his evidence base is quite slender. Unilateral free trade with the EU would result only in punitive sanctions and tariff barriers against the UK, which could escalate if there is no fear of UK retaliation. And the EU is still our largest export market. Moreover, the adjustments required by unilateral free trade would be costly and painful – increased unemployment and the re-location of exporting companies. Selective unilateral trade with much of the world, perhaps; but the UK needs to use the threat of tariffs when dealing with an aggressive mercantilist power (like the EU), as one Adam Smith himself pointed out.

  17. BIF>

    Lots of people think the poor are too thick to decide for themselves what’s best for them. Lots don’t.

    “Restricting semi skilled immigration hands a huge advantage to the indigenous unskilled and semi skilled, so wages will rise.”

    And yet, the indigenous unskilled and semi-skilled don’t agree with you, so it’s you telling them they’re wrong. Of course they’re not wrong, they implicitly understand Ricardo’s Difficult Idea – comparative advantage – and know that what you’re claiming simply isn’t true.

    Quite why it is that only the poor really get comparative advantage is harder to say. Presumably it’s because they’re the ones with real, practical experience of being the ones at a relative disadvantage, but profiting from comparative advantage, in their regular lives.

  18. I remember when the 4th result came in on Independence night. It was Sunderland and the returning officer said:
    “Total votes cast – 130,000 ( round numbers ) . .
    Total votes cast for Remain – 50,000
    Total votes cast for Leave – 80,000, at which point an epic cheer went up at the back, and the camera panned to people in Union Jack tops and hats dancing like they’d discovered legs.
    One interpretation is that Leave votes are thick because they should have started celebrating as soon as they heard ‘fif-‘ a few seconds earlier.
    The other view is that yes they can subtract, but they were waiting politely as the British tend to do for the returning officer to finish.
    Thick or politely British – which best defines a Sunderland leaver?

  19. Andrew Carey–They had wisdom enough to know their enemies and take action to destroy them. That is all that matters.

    Dave–taxing your bullshit reserves this week..

    Cos we’re so thick give us a few concrete examples of ole Ricardo in action in the context of imported job-seekers.

  20. @Andrew Carey:

    “Total votes cast for Leave – 80,000, at which point an epic cheer went up at the back, and the camera panned to people in Union Jack tops and hats dancing like they’d discovered legs.”

    Unless the venue held 80,000 people wearing Union Jack tops and hats I’d say the ‘interpretation’ can’t go beyond however many turned up at the venue wearing Union Jack tops and hats. But then I’ve always been a bit logical.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *