The ground is shifting, and Brexiters, such as Dominic Raab, are getting nervous: “The public have spoken; we should respect the result and get on with it, not try to find new hurdles that undermine the democratic process,” he says. But what kind of democracy is that, with just one lifelong vote – immutable, however many people review the altered facts and change their mind?
Remainers, meanwhile, like Labour’s shadow foreign secretary Emily Thornberry, feel the stirrings of an opportunity. She is the first Labour frontbencher to open the door to a second referendum. Others, John Major and Tony Blair included, press for a second vote so citizens can approve the final deal. How wise that sounds: lay out the facts, explain the complexities and let the people decide.
But has no one learned the lesson of the last referendum? Never again, is what we learned, for how could a second referendum in what would probably be an even nastier atmosphere improve the national debate? How would it not, once again, be hijacked by lies?
We saw the last time how moderate, rational people of all parties who campaigned for remain failed to come to terms with the post-fact, post-truth, emoto-politics, where what you identify with trumps all else. We saw how the sight of a far-right tectonic shift, the deployment of terrifying statistics and the fire-alarm warnings from trustworthy experts all proved irrelevant to the 52% who wanted just one thing – out, as a badge, as a state of being, as a national identity and as sovereign freedom from foreigners in Brussels or over here.
So, not even one vote then as you peasants might vote the wrong way.
The lack of self-awareness is as comical as ever — she could equally be referring to the referendum of 1975.
Incidentally, have you seen Emily Thornberry.
Some Shadow Foreign Secretary.
Even her shadow must weigh 8 stone.
What a vile cunt the woman is,
Treason and sedition charge for sure. A few nights in the cells will do the bitch a world of good.
Political repression for thee but not for me. That might change after she has a taste of it.
I’m no fan of referendums but we got in via a referendum so its not unreasonable to have another one to confirm that decision every 40 years or so.
And talking about lies in referendums, how about all those lies that we were only joining a common market and not a political union? I get it it, situations change, move on, new decisions and treaties have to be made. Great, no problem with that, but as the political elite made us a promise in 1975 its not unreasonable that they come back to us when situations change.
“We saw the last time how moderate, rational people of all parties who campaigned for remain…”
It’s a strange fact that it doesn’t seem to matter which side of an argument I take, all the moderates agree with me and all the extremists are on the opposing side. I’m sure there must be a reason for it. I guess it’s because I’m always right. 🙂
Agreed on “its not unreasonable to have another one to confirm that decision every 40 years or so.”
I’m quite happy for Remainers to campaign for us to have another referendum in at least 20 years’ time, and to campaign for us to Join. Unfinished business and all that.
But they can fuck off complaining about the one we’ve just had.
Also agreed on the lies that got/kept us in. “No loss of sovereignty”. No wonder the older generation voted Leave.
The EU won’t be here in 20 years.
And I thought it was just Ireland that reran referenda until the correct result was achieved.
“rational people of all parties who campaigned for remain failed to come to terms with the post-fact, post-truth, emoto-politics, where what you identify with trumps all else”
This coming from the most prominent UK newspaper for identity politics. I suspect Guardian writers receive a lobotomy to remove the part of the brain that deals with self-awareness as part of the hiring process.
Bloke in North Dorset said: “I’m no fan of referendums but we got in via a referendum …”
No. We didn’t.
Can you imagine how fucked over, at every opportunity, Britain would be by the EU if there was a second referendum which overturned the first one?
We would have blinked and they would know they could do anything to us.
Remainers are under the illusion that the rest of the EU are our friends and allies all working toward the common good of the European people instead of a bunch of separate countries all working for themselves. Which is why it works as a customs union but not as a superstate.
These devious bastards fondly imagine that the referendum will be a choice between accepting the outcome of negotiations and staying in the EU.
This cannot happen, firstly, we voted to leave so the choice would be between a negotiated exit or an exit without agreement. Negotiations cannot start until Article 50 is invoked. Once it is, there is a two year maximum period for negotiations. Realistically, there is only time for one lot of negotiations followed by a referendum. If the referendum result was no, there would not be time to go back to the table and renegotiate followed by another referendum.
Article 50 has no mechanism for the halting of the process once invoked so the option of remaining is not on the table. If the UK decided it wanted to stay after Article 50 has been invoked, it would essentially be a new application for membership so you can bet the outcome would involve the Euro with no rebates or opt outs.
If we’d arrived dishonestly and illegally at that point via a referendum on the Brexit negotiations, then a referendum would have to be held on the decidedly less favourable re-entry terms. We could be having referenda forever, with more in outs than the Hokey Pokey.
“Bloke in North Dorset said: “I’m no fan of referendums but we got in via a referendum …”
No. We didn’t.”
Fair point, I was being lazy. We continued our membership of the EC after a non-binding referendum.
It will be truly hilarious if Paul Nuttall manages to make UKIP northern friendly. A total collapse of Labour outside the big cities would make Polly’s head explode.
They managed 2nd in several northern by-elections with Nigel in charge – so the Labour party must be really shitting themselves now UKIP is being led by a Scouser.
“It will be truly hilarious if Paul Nuttall manages to make UKIP northern friendly.”
Looks like thats the way they’re aiming – northern ‘bloke’ leader, they’ll be pushing ‘schools’n’hospitals’ next, and higher taxes on the rich southerners no doubt. All of that, coupled with the usual pro-England anti foreigner shtick should see them make considerable gains in the north, will lose them votes down south of course but better to be a regional player with some actual MP clout than a national player with lots of votes but no MPs ie do an SNP. Labour will be shitting themselves, middle class metropolitan leader, as are most of the senior Labour figures. Not a horny handed son of toil amongst them. All the rotten Labour boroughs in northern former industrial areas are ripe for UKIP to walk right in. Labour will be left with the inner city SJW and immigrants vote and not much else.
Yes and if this were to lead to a shake up in the hideous governance of poor badly run Labour areas it would be real progress.
Even more delightful is the number of the metropolitan elite Labour MPs who have carpet bagged safe seats in the north eg Ed Miliband, who will be looking over their shoulders as they run scared.
What would be perfect is a massive cull of moderate Labour MPs after the boundary changes as Momentum wipes out the Blairites and then a total UKIP massacre of the non-big city part of Labour, which would leave Labour as the Corbyn party – an irrelevance.
Best two out of three?
Properly functioning democracy: we keep voting on it ’til we get the result we want.
“deployment of terrifying statistics and the fire-alarm warnings from trustworthy experts all proved irrelevant to the 52% who wanted just one thing – out, as a badge, as a state of being, as a national identity and as sovereign freedom from foreigners in Brussels or over here.”
One might believe that the remainers are money obsessed, and the leavers are ideological and romantic more concerned worthy their quality of life than grubby moolah.
the Labour party must be really shitting themselves now UKIP is being led by a Scouser
Before everybody gets carried away thinking that UKIP will be acceptable to the Northerners just because they’ve got a skinhead Scouser for a leader, let’s just remember the result of the Bootle constituency in the 2015 GE:
Labour Peter Dowd 33,619
UKIP Paul Nuttall 4,915
And yes, Nuttall came second.
S’cuse my rural non-Islingtonian iggorance but, if the Government fails to get a satisfactory agreement with the Remainians and, as DocBud says above, Art. 50 times out before any such agreement can be reached, then we exit with nowt, correct?
Knowing that if that happens and we then go into WTO mode, won’t the Remains be desperate to reach a deal with the Government beforehand, one that is ultimately more agreeable to us than it is to them?
Or have I missed something?
Politics was never my strong point.
I’m going to lock myself away from all distractions for a week and do some serious research because I can’t take anymore cold turds from these cretins.
I will try to find a nation in the history of the world that desperately wanted to join a failing dictatorship which was inflicting appalling atrocities on its subject peoples.
Needles, haystacks. Hey ho.