Owen, it’s because humans are racist – and most likely to be so over the subject of sex

Racism is a serious problem within the LGBT community and needs to be addressed. Despite the determination of many minority ethnic LGBT people to do just that, it is not happening. “How can I be a bigot when I am myself a member of an oppressed minority?” is a prevailing attitude among some white LGBT people. But another far more pernicious reason is that the LGBT world revolves around white gay men to the exclusion of others. The rainbow flag is whiter than it appears.

“I’m sexualised for my skin tone and never treated as a person,” Saif tells me. “The community is trained to accept a white, ‘masc’, muscled gay man and the rest of us are not really accepted or ‘one of their own’.” It’s not the individual he blames, but being conditioned by a community that venerates the “sexual image of a white gay man”. According to research by FS magazine, an astonishing 80% of black men, 79% of Asian men and 75% of south Asian men have experienced racism on the gay scene.

Who we get to rub uglies with is a matter of some choice and noting which choices people do make tells us something about, umm, the choices that people make. No, this isn’t to say that we should be pro- or anti- miscegenation nor in fact that we should do anything collectively at all. But we should actually note that people do what people do and one of the things they do do is distinguish between people on those grounds of race when choosing to rub uglies. Some in favour of particular types, some against of course.

But there’s absolutely no point whatsoever in decrying basic fundamental behaviour of this sort. It’s not just how this does work it’s how it should work too. We’re supposed to, when deciding upon whom to rub uglies with, discriminate on outward signs of genetic markers. Rather how evolution works really.

This manifests itself in numerous ways. Some are rejected because of their ethnicity; on the other hand, some are objectified because of it. On dating sites and apps, profiles abound that say “no Asians” or “no black people”, casually excluding entire ethnic groups. It’s like a “bastardised ‘No dogs, no blacks, no Irish’ signs”, as Anthony Lorenzo puts it.

“On apps like Grindr,” writes Matthew Rodriguez, “gay men brandish their racial dating preferences with all the same unapologetic bravado that straight men reserve for their favourite baseball team.”

And?

60 thoughts on “Owen, it’s because humans are racist – and most likely to be so over the subject of sex”

  1. Bloke in Costa Rica

    I would imagine that hatred of Owen Jones is something that could unite people of all sexes, races, creeds and sexualities.

  2. You want know something? Okay, you don’t. But anyway.

    I just don’t effing care. Not in the pissing slightest. Because they have _made_ me not care. With their incessant whining, their intersectionality bollocks and their insistence on ruling our feelings, or at least our freedom to express such, with a rancid mob of shame-a-trons.

    My bloody daughter was complaining that her 1st year uni class (she’s teaching) were traumatised over Trump Triumphal. Why tff?

    They’ve never been allowed to be hurt in the myriad of trivial ways we were (and she was), so they grotesquely lack perspective. And they are being lied to. By all their authority figures. So, of course they are effing scared. They aren’t aware enough of reality to not be.

    When I was 18/19, thermonuclear Armageddon was something to be scared of. Trump’s VP (until Obama arrived as POTUS, notoriously the US official most likely to be found on the golf course on a working day) have a bit of a downed on gay marriage? Trivia.

    And what BiCR said.

    I wonder what colour and social spectrum Owen’s boyfriends have come from? A fiver to a charity of your choice says 75%+ pasty-white middle-class* undergrads or grads.

    * Not that I’m admitting the existence of classes other than “won’t work”, “working” and “don’t need to work”.

  3. People also sexually discriminate against fat people. Except the fat people fetishists of course, who discriminate against thin people.

    I think more needs to be done to shame both sorts.

  4. I wonder how many toothless 80 year old gentlemen of South Asian origin, with a whiff of lavender abut them (there must be the odd one or two) Owen has got on his knees for. And if not, why not?

    He really, really has nothing to say (generally) at all, does he?

  5. I love it.

    And you, you smarmy git, thinking you’re invulnerable cos you’re gay, going to cake shops and doing a bit of agitprop, you should have looked behind you for young Owen, stalking you with his righteous sword ready to plunge it between your shouldeblades.

    Somewhere in the world is a dwarven hermaphrodite of a certain shade with socialist tendencies who is oblivious to the fact that they are the most powerful person in the world.

  6. I’d be prepared to venture that attraction and attitudes towards potential lovers is influenced by racial, sometimes racist, bias in society, eg the perpetuation of stereotypes. A lot of white men seem more comfortable with the idea of dating an Asian woman than a black one, for instance, and while it is plausible this is driven by pre-existing physical preferences, I can’t help wondering what would happen if sexual stereotypes about Asian and black ladies were reversed or the conventional public images of beauty were rejigged – if straight men were fed a diet of glamorous black models and actresses on film/tv/adverts, and myths of black women being generally demure and sexually submissive, would their tastes change?

  7. Do they have signs on those gay dating apps like “No 30 somethings who look like little teenage chipmunks”?

  8. “Some are rejected because of their ethnicity; on the other hand, some are objectified because of it.”

    By “objectified” do you mean fancied?

  9. “Racism is a serious problem within the LGBT community and needs to be addressed.”

    Nope.

    (drifts away, checking his phone)

  10. SE: Purge, purge etc.
    .
    John miller: “young Owen, stalking you with his righteous sword ready to plunge it between your shouldeblades”

    Up your arse would surely be the most apt metaphor.

  11. Without my racist sexual preferences – I’m a sucker for caramel skin, pouty lips, almond-shaped eyes, high cheekbones and a man of raven hair, so south and south east Asians are my thing – there’s be one less mixed race child in the world.

    Is that what Owen wants?

    Not that I care what he wants.

  12. A revolting thought occurred to me. And I can’t unthink it. So you have to suffer it too (for a particularly sadistic interpretation of “have to”.)

    Owen as Keith Vaz’s toyboy.

    See, after that, reality isn’t quite so awful!

  13. MyBurningEars: “…if straight men were fed a diet of glamorous black models and actresses on film/tv/adverts…”

    They are. Most of the black actresses are the ‘pretty’ type by Western standards, aren’t they? Not like the horrors you see on the streets of London daily.

    But then, this holds true for white women as well.

  14. Edward Lud

    “and a man of raven hair”

    Do they still need the pouty lips etc or is the raven hair enough on a man?

  15. “I’m sexualised for my skin tone and never treated as a person”

    Pathetic and absurd creature.

    E. Lud: …and a man of raven hair

    eh? Mane?

  16. So Much For Subtlety

    Presumably Freud would argue that we are sexualised as children by our experiences of our parents. We learn to like what we like by learning from our parents. Part of that will be racial.

    Seems plausible.

    However these things are very hard to change. Black men from Africa continue to display a preference for larger women – just as Black men in Africa do. No other group can have had as much pressure to change and yet they haven’t.

    On the other hand, while most people will learn a preference some will learn to reject that preference. There will be Gay White men who have a thing for Black men in the same way there are Straight White men who have a thing for Orientals. Whether that is a positive or a minus I don’t know but I bet it is a factor.

  17. So Much For Subtlety

    According to research by FS magazine, an astonishing 80% of black men, 79% of Asian men and 75% of south Asian men have experienced racism on the gay scene.

    I have this picture of Ali G saying “Is it coz I’s Black?” As opposed to being an ugly munter.

    Perhaps I should report for re-education.

  18. What Julia said.

    We’ve just had years of campaigning for the “right to marry whoever you want”. But it’s not a right to fancy whoever you want? How’s that going to work, then?

  19. “what’s your type of girl? You know what, don’t even answer that. Let’s say its black chicks. Okay, that’s your thing. For the sake of argument, that’s your thing, okay? Why is that your thing? Because you did a detailed analysis of all racial types and you cross-referenced that analysis with a points-based system? No! You’re just attracted to black chicks. A consequence of accumulated external stimuli that you probably didn’t even register as they registered with you.”

    Nathan – ‘Ex Machina’

  20. @squander – actually I think that even though gay guys (and, I bowl from the pavilion end myself) don’t breed, I think the underlying drivers that drive attraction are the same: being attracted to someone with a different (ish) genetic mix.

    I mean, I’m a dark-haired swarthyish chap, and little Owen, being a blondy fair-type… well, to be blunt he’d get it hard (albeit partly for fun, partly to punish him for being a leftist twerp). It’s probably a different set of genes being ‘presented’ in hair colour, skin tone etc…

    Whether dumb leftism is part of that genetic signalling, I don’t know. Probably not though as the blessed Milo would also get it… but then again he likes black guys. *Really* likes black guys (the racist).

    How I wish Milo read and would comment on this blog!

  21. I’d like to ram a baseball bat into the misogynistic Owen Jones’s mouth for insulting all women by not wanting to have sex with them.

  22. So, gay men are massively more racist than straight ones? Is that what he is saying?

    If so, and he is gay, then he is also a massive racist by implication? Identity group politics and all that?

  23. @squander – ah, I see. I was looking at it from the effect point of view 🙂 Have long pondered that…

    All this has reminds me of when I – on a ‘specialist’ website (not that specialist, though – one just for general botters) – included the phrase ‘…no fatties’. I got berated by a chap, who himself claimed to be fat, that I was fattist. And that I should think about the upset that my phrasing would cause and why wouldn’t I consider a fat person anyway?

    I replied thanking him for opening my mind and taking down my barriers, inviting him over for some action, adding ” I’m sure it won’t be a waste of your time and petrol, and we’ll surely have an immense amount of fun”. Never heard back.

    See, you can have virtue signalling even in this arena!

  24. MBE,

    “I’d be prepared to venture that attraction and attitudes towards potential lovers is influenced by racial, sometimes racist, bias in society, eg the perpetuation of stereotypes. A lot of white men seem more comfortable with the idea of dating an Asian woman than a black one, for instance, and while it is plausible this is driven by pre-existing physical preferences, I can’t help wondering what would happen if sexual stereotypes about Asian and black ladies were reversed or the conventional public images of beauty were rejigged – if straight men were fed a diet of glamorous black models and actresses on film/tv/adverts, and myths of black women being generally demure and sexually submissive, would their tastes change?”

    No. Sorry, but I’ve rarely found black women attractive, right back to when I was at school with black girls and before any stereotyping came in. That’s “black” as in specifically black rather than “people of colour”. Indian girls? Absolutely.

    My own pet theory is about the problems of hundreds of years of slavery, followed by around a century of anti-miscegenation laws. You spend 200 years trying to breed women who are good workers rather than pretty, you’re going to kick the stuffing out of “pretty” in the gene pool. You then put these people in ghettos, keep them poor, pass laws saying they can only breed with their own colour.

    If you look at lots of the hottest black actresses and supermodels, few come from the USA. They either come from Caribbean descent or Africa. The American ones are almost entirely recently mixed race.

  25. Witchsmeller Pursuivant

    Poor little OJ is now in trouble with the LGBT community at large for using the term LGBT in the article when he was actually talking exclusively about gay white men. I doubt he will appreciate the irony.

  26. If Owen were to sign up for a short stay in a U.S. prison, he’d quickly find himself sexualised for his skin tone.

  27. Andrew M, indeed. He’d be sharing a cell with a 300-pound black dude called Isaiah – “Owen, you’re my little puppy now.”

  28. You spend 200 years trying to breed women who are good workers rather than pretty, you’re going to kick the stuffing out of “pretty” in the gene pool.

    Having lived where the raw material came from, I can assure you it’s not because of that.

  29. @BiW
    Diffren’ strokes fer diffren’ folks. Had a couple or more black girlfriends, over the years. I always just recallibrated for what was attractive. One, in particular, was a lead actress in a TV sitcom. So attractive? Certainly to a few million TV viewers in the demographic the show was aimed at. But, to be honest, if you’d photoshopped her white she’d have been hideous. Genetics? Sierra Leone.
    The current Miss Right looks like she’s been assembled from a kit of parts by someone who hadn’t much experience of humans. About 50% Indio seasoned with Europe & maybe a bit of Africa. An alternative but very nice way of building a woman. I think so, anyway.

  30. @TimN
    Nigeria does seem to produce more than its fair share of munters, doesn’t it?
    And then there’s Sade.

  31. Some gays have racial preferences for sexual partners, it seems.
    A minority concern even for a minority, I suspect.
    But maybe the Guardian knows their audience better than I do.

  32. Hmm. So what we’ve discovered is that the vast majority of LGBTers are not SJWs, and have no time or sympathy for their obsessions. Well, I suppose it’s news to some.

    “According to research by FS magazine, an astonishing 80% of black men, 79% of Asian men and 75% of south Asian men have experienced racism on the gay scene.”

    I’m now vaguely curious how many white men have experienced racism, and why is this particular statistic missing? Racism?

    (Not to mention the sexism. “men”? Not very ‘rainbow’ of him, is it?)

  33. Expressed dating preferences are not racism, they are trigger warnings that save snowflakes from the shame of rejection.

    From the article: “The struggle against racism has, of course, to be led by people of colour who suffer the consequences”

    Why ‘of course’? Jones spends much of the article saying its bad to reduce people to their skin colour and then does exactly that.

  34. Timmy : ” It’s not just how this does work ; it’s how it should work too. We’re supposed to discriminate on outward signs of genetic markers. Rather how evolution works”
    Fucking nuts. You’re not “supposed” to fancy someone from a different race?

  35. “It’s not just how this does work ; it’s how it should work too. We’re supposed to discriminate on outward signs of genetic markers. Rather how evolution works”

    People judge attractiveness by comparing against the “average” of all the other people they see/know – they’re looking for outliers from the genetic norm as evidence of illness or defects. But this has the side-effect of making minorities from other communities appear unattractive as well – at least until they become common enough to influence the perceived norm.

    Generally, from an evolutionary point of view, the more genetically different your partner is, the better. Sex is basically a mechanism for shuffling immunity markers to keep ahead of the parasites and diseases. Inbreeding is a bad idea.

  36. DBC Reed – saying we are supposed to consider outward signs of genetic markers is not the same as saying we are supposed to go for outward signs of genetic markers similar to our own.

    Evolution has programmed us to consider particular cues. It hasn’t told us how to interpret them.

  37. @NiV
    “I’m now vaguely curious how many white men have experienced racism, ”

    Ask any guy who’s been out with a black girl. Especially an attractive black girl. And entirely from black guys. And often violent, rather than mere abuse.

  38. Sorry, but I’ve rarely found black women attractive, right back to when I was at school with black girls and before any stereotyping came in. That’s “black” as in specifically black rather than “people of colour”. Indian girls? Absolutely.

    Niggers have never done it for me. On the other hand, I can find rice niggers and sand niggers attractive.

  39. NiV

    Generally, from an evolutionary point of view, the more genetically different your partner is, the better. Sex is basically a mechanism for shuffling immunity markers to keep ahead of the parasites and diseases. Inbreeding is a bad idea.

    Which suggests that evolutionary theory’s explanatory power is rather limited in this regard, because people generally prefer to mate with their own ethnic group, which generally has sufficiently varied immunity markers.

  40. “Which suggests that evolutionary theory’s explanatory power is rather limited in this regard, because people generally prefer to mate with their own ethnic group”

    I’d say evolutionary theory’s got SFA to say about cross race relationships. In the vast majority of cases they’re cross cultural as well as cross race relationships & even where the cultures are pretty close – say a white Londoner & a second generation black Londoner – there’s enough cultural incompatibility to cause problems.
    With la xica residente, we might as well be from different planets, culturally. It takes a helluva lot of work. That we’re different, racially, is insignificant.

  41. @JuliaM, November 25, 2016 at 9:49 am

    MyBurningEars: “…if straight men were fed a diet of glamorous black models and actresses on film/tv/adverts…”

    They are. Most of the black actresses are the ‘pretty’ type by Western standards, aren’t they? Not like the horrors you see on the streets of London daily.”

    +1

    I pointed that out to others over 20 years ago, most are ones who are attractive to “racists” if skin painted white.

    We like who we like, we dislike some. We can not be compelled to like and want to have a sexual relationship with those we do not like.

  42. GC

    So if I go on a dating website and say I’m only interested in women, I’ve committed a hate crime

    If she bowls from the Pavilion End (as Lockers eloquently put it) – who knows..:)

  43. So Much For Subtlety

    NiV – “Generally, from an evolutionary point of view, the more genetically different your partner is, the better. Sex is basically a mechanism for shuffling immunity markers to keep ahead of the parasites and diseases. Inbreeding is a bad idea.”

    No. It isn’t. That is a basic biology fail. Inbreeding is a bad idea. But outcrossing is also a bad idea if the other partner comes from too far away. Whatever you can say about the other organisms around you, they usually have been bred for the local conditions. Another organism from further away has not. Thus there is, for plants, an optimal out crossing distance. Not too far, not too close.

    As you can understand crossing a plant that has evolved for the Scottish highlands with one that has evolved for the Sahara is unlikely to produce offspring that is well adapted to either location.

  44. So Much For Subtlety

    Gamecock – “So if I go on a dating website and say I’m only interested in women, I’ve committed a hate crime?”

    Some Gays have already made the claim that if you are chatted up by a Gay and you are not willing to say yes – not, as I understand it, that you have to but that you are willing to consider it – you have committed a hate crime.

  45. Squander Two,

    “Are there a lot of Black Americans in Wiltshire, then?”

    No, not many. Wiltshire is very white.

    But I’ve worked with black women and the ones I found attractive always were the ones who came fairly directly from Africa. Either, they’d come here to work, or one their parents was African.

  46. “Whatever you can say about the other organisms around you, they usually have been bred for the local conditions. Another organism from further away has not. Thus there is, for plants, an optimal out crossing distance. Not too far, not too close.”

    Possibly so, if you’re a plant, but humans can walk rather longer distances looking for a mate. They’re more thoroughly mixed, and a lot more adaptable to a wider range of environments as a result.

    In any case, you can’t actually tell. Someone can have a foreign grandparent and be indistinguishable from the locals. It wouldn’t be a useful test for the presence of foreign genes, and with relatively few foreigners around wouldn’t be tested very often, and so would be unlikely to evolve.

  47. So Much For Subtlety

    NiV – “Possibly so, if you’re a plant, but humans can walk rather longer distances looking for a mate. They’re more thoroughly mixed, and a lot more adaptable to a wider range of environments as a result.”

    But historically people did not move very far at all. Certainly the major racial groups were highly isolated. Even so the Irish saw no general population movement for the past 4000 years until recently.

    “In any case, you can’t actually tell. Someone can have a foreign grandparent and be indistinguishable from the locals.”

    If the grandparent is from France. Not so much if they are from Nigeria.

    “It wouldn’t be a useful test for the presence of foreign genes, and with relatively few foreigners around wouldn’t be tested very often, and so would be unlikely to evolve.”

    What wouldn’t be? You can test for foreign genes. As is now normal for Black Americans for instance. Morgan Freeman.

    A DNA test on the series stated that he is descended in part from the Songhai and Tuareg peoples of Niger.

  48. “But historically people did not move very far at all.”

    Don’t think so. Humans evolved a hunting style that involved running down prey over long distances – humans can move further and faster than virtually any other land animal.

    At 30 miles a day, a human can circle the globe in about 2.3 years (or could, if the seas didn’t get in the way). He can run a thousand miles in a month. The world’s a lot smaller place than modern-day city dwellers who rarely walk further than the shops like to think.

    There’s plenty of evidence of trade and migrations over long distances in prehistoric times. Not that it even needs to be done by individuals traveling that far. Exogamy between neighbouring village groups – say 30 miles apart – would spread genes a thousand miles every 33 generations, about 830 years. On the scale of deep evolutionary time, that’s like the blink of an eye.

    “Even so the Irish saw no general population movement for the past 4000 years until recently.”

    We’re talking about human evolution, yes? 4,000 years is like 1% of that. And Ireland is an island – it’s a bit harder to go visit the relative back in Wales for the weekend…

    The white skin genes are primarily due to mutations in KITLG, ASIP, SLC24A5, SLC45A2 and HERC2/OCA2, which occurred within the last 20,000 years, and possibly within the last 6,000-12,000. Each of the white-skin mutations appear in about 80-90% of Europeans compared to 10% of Africans – it’s the combination of multiple white-skin alleles yields the visible effect. There are some scientists who think that it was only the spread of agriculture about 6,000 years ago that spread the white skin colour alleles across Europe. About 8,000 years ago the hunter-gatherers in Luxembourg and Spain were still dark-skinned.

    So assuming that the populations interbred (even slightly), everyone in Western Europe has predominantly black ancestors from about 320 generations ago, and all of everyone’s ancestors were black from no earlier than 800 generations ago. That’s out of the 10,000-15,000 generations that homo sapiens has been around.

    On an evolutionary timescale, the white skin colour genes spread extraordinarily rapidly, in just a couple of thousand years – probably carried along on the wave of the agricultural revolution.

    “What wouldn’t be? You can test for foreign genes.”

    I’m talking about an *evolved* test for foreign genes just by looking at a person’s appearance. If, as you say, you can’t spot a French grandmother in somebody’s appearance, it’s not likely to provide a lot of evolutionary pressure for discrimination, is it?

    Skin colour is a pretty bad test for for foreign genes – there are 20,000 genes in the human genome – you’re going to base your test on the visible effect of just three or four of them? You miss about 99.98% of what you’re supposedly looking for. Not likely to evolve in the last 6,000 years, reall, is it?

    Birth defects are common, everywhere. Foreigners from far enough away that their lack of local adaptations outweighs the benefits of genetic diversity are rare. You’re not going to be at much of an evolutionary disadvantage if you fail to discriminate against the latter. You are if you fail to discriminate against birth defects and mutations.

    On evolutionary grounds, skin-colour discrimination is not and cannot be genetic. White skin hasn’t been around that long, and there’s no significant evolutionary advantage in it.

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