Not quite as bad as it looks at first but still

French Jews holding dual Israeli citizenship will have to give up one of their nationalities if Marine Le Pen, the far-Right candidate, wins the presidential election this spring.

The leader of the anti-immigration Front National said she would bar French nationals from holding the citizenship of countries outside the European Union, except for Russia, which she described as part of “the Europe of nations.”

The first paragraph is horrible of course, the second shows that it’s not quite that bad although still bad (Russia for fuck’s sake?). As to the EU I don’t think she can ban it, can she?

27 thoughts on “Not quite as bad as it looks at first but still”

  1. Many countries don’t allow dual nationality. Japan is the first one that come to mind.

    Clarification: In Japan you’re required to only have one nationality, but unless you shove it in people’s faces the system tends to ignore a Japanese national’s additional non-Japanese nationality. Only if you start kicking up a fuss will the law strip you of your Japanese nationality for your crime of also having a non-Japanese nationality and not explicitly deciding which one to keep.

  2. I don’t think you can stop a Jew having citizenship of Israel — isn’t that guaranteed to them under Israeli law?

    The most you can do is prevent them having an Israeli passport as well as a French one.

    It’s a bizarre policy anyway, because people’s allegiances are not determined by which passport they carry. Preventing Yanks from having US passports isn’t likely to make them feel less Yankee. My sisters was forced for economic reasons to have an Australian passport, but that doesn’t stop her feeling a Kiwi at heart.

  3. So Much For Subtlety

    France used to ban dual passports. America used to as well although they don’t any more. I think Israel was the general reason for that too. I don’t know of any East Asian country that allowed dual passports. Why should they?

    Again the problem is with Muslims but because we can’t have common sense laws, Israelis will suffer. Can’t say I care much. They are just singling out Israel so they can make an accusation of anti-semitism even though I would guess this is a vote winner.

  4. As jgh says, unless you are caught with it on you are tell someone you have it (which would also be subsequently deniable), I’m not sure how you would “prove” it.

    Sure, as a dual citizen myself (Manx / Irish), I have to wander into the nearest Irish Embassy or consulate every 10 years to get it renewed, but that is about it.

    To my knowledge there is no record of my Irish passport outside Irish government offices except those places I’ve shown it to gain entry (which is kind of the point of a passport in the first place)

    I also seem to recall that the rule about passports is that if you hold one for that country, then that is the passport which must be shown on entry and exit.

    Maybe the EU should start issuing it’s own passports to those who want one, since it has pretended to be a “country” for some time now (for a given value of country at least).

    Knowing the Israeli’s as quite clever chaps, I suspect they will provide their French compatriots with “totally legitimate” (wink wink) renunciation certificates on demand.

    Alternately, I am sure they could do a two-for-one deal with a renunciation ceremony and certificate on Monday and a repatriatisation ceremony on Friday withave new Israeli passport thrown in.

    Marine Le Penn is just playing this one for the crowd as any non-idiot would quickly realise it is unenforceable.

  5. Bloke in North Dorset

    Trump style campaigning. Say something which is bound to wind up the usual suspects in to a frenzy. Seeing them in a frenzy confirms to the ordinary voter that the establishment is ganging up on them. Overton window shifts slightly right and political opponents have to make statements that condemn you whilst at the same time acknowledging a problem. Rinse and repeat.

    Geert Wilders started it before Trump and it has got to the point where Mark Rutte wrote an open letter which in all but name attacks Muslims for not integrating and respecting Dutch values:

    People who “refuse to adapt, and criticise our values” should “behave normally, or go away”, Rutte said in a full-page newspaper message seen as a bid to win over voters drawn to Geert Wilders’ anti-immigration, anti-Muslim Freedom (PVV) party

    He said the Dutch were “increasingly uncomfortable” with those who abused the freedoms they enjoyed after coming to the Netherlands, who “harass gays, or whistle at women in short skirts, or brand ordinary Dutch people racists”.

    He wouldn’t have been saying that if Wilders hadn’t been around.

  6. Tricky one for the Left. They’d normally be all over a policy which forces Jews to give up Israeli passports, passports for a country they don’t believe has the right to exist.

    However, it comes from Le Pen. Tricky, tricky.

  7. Anyway, just round 4046 in the game of “One group causes a massive problem, but let’s just blame the Jews anyway”. They must be used to it by now.

  8. Yes, she can ban it with the EU. It’s up to the country. What she can’t do is say some dual nationalities with EU countries are allowed and others not.

    Germany used to allow dual nationality with France, and was then made to extend that to the whole EU. Alternatively they could have stopped it with France, and be like Austria, that does not allow dual nationality with EU countries. It’s consistency that’s needed, not allowing dual nationality.

    So my combination of passports (in the nick of time for Brexit) is fine, and since German citizenship is conferred for life, I get to keep both, even after Brexit. Turkish and German, or US and German, is very much more difficult (but not impossible). I gather Israelis are offered dual as a matter of policy even though the law generally expects non-EU/Swiss people to renounce their prior citizenships.

  9. It’s curious to include Russia while excluding Norway or Switzerland from the “Europe of Nations”.

    Mind you, it’s not as bonkers as her monetary policy which seems to derive pretty much from the Prof.

    Anyone want to tell him?

  10. From the liberal point of view we’d want to be free to have a passport of any country that’ll have us.

    The only onerous obligation of a nationality these days i can think of comes in times of war. So I would say dual nationality should be banned only in times of war. Pick your side, and if your other nationality is neutral, still pick your side.

  11. Kenya used to ban dual nationality, which was part of Obama’s argument for being a proper American when he was campaigning for the presidency.

  12. There were reports a while ago that French Jews were supporting Le Pen because she was the only one who would protect them from Muslims. I suspect this is an attempt by other parties to lure some of them back.

  13. Again the problem is with Muslims but because we can’t have common sense laws, Israelis will suffer

    30 years ago, it was Americans. Back in the 80s, with all those terror attacks, France passed a law making certain non-European countries’ citizens apply for visa, and included the US to disguise the fact that it was really targeting Muslim countries.

    When my dad called up the French consulate to apply, the woman answered the phone in French, which Dad doesn’t speak. She rather snottily told him that he ought to be able to speak a second language, whereupon he replied, in German, that he does.

  14. Oh, and I forgot to add that when we crossed the border from Germany into France in 1989, we were never stopped and nobody anywhere checked for our visas.

  15. “Marine Le Penn is just playing this one for the crowd ”

    I don’t get it. She’s not getting any Muslim votes – and they tend to be strongly anti-Jewish. Jewish votes wouldn’t normally go to the FN, but the FN see “Islam” as some dividing line. Ie those that support le Pen in a sense might be taking “a side”, which might be more pro than anti Israel?

    Hence, to me, she’s mis-judging it. She could have said OK to all European and some “western Asian” countries provided that they were “sufficiently democratic”. That would have neatly dealt with the Middle East.

  16. Will it even be up to her? If France is anything like the US, the President and Federal Government is not allowed to set immigration policy: that lies with random judges in lefty areas.

  17. @SMFS, the US has never prohibited Americans having another citizenship. It just has explicit wording saying that Americans are always treated as Americans by the USA. All countries have the same policy.

    The US loves taxing its citizens. It used to be possible to acquire another citizenship and then use this act to declare that you intended to relinquish your US citizenship, which would be granted without any fee except that your US taxes up to relinquishing of citizenship had to be paid. There is now a $2300 fee and you also have to pay an “exit wealth tax”.

    @John Galt, “I also seem to recall that the rule about passports is that if you hold one for that country, then that is the passport which must be shown on entry and exit.”

    Not true, if a country requires this then it must explicitly say so. The USA and Australia do. The UK and New Zealand allow citizens to enter on other passports. Canada allows it in theory, but in practice only American-Canadians will be able to board a plane to Canada without a Canadian passport. Poland allows you to enter, but not to leave (hence many Americans getting “trapped” in Poland until they figure out they can just take a train to Germany and leave from there).

    The only thing is that if you use a foreign passport to enter your own country, then you may inadvertently have restrictions placed on your stay such as a time limit. If your country wishes to treat you as a citizen, it doesn’t matter what document you used to enter (e.g. British-Chinese and Swedish-Chinese being critical of the Communist Party in China have been denied access to British or Swedish consular help)

  18. If I was in charge of the UK dual UK/other nationality would not be allowed, you would be asked to relinquish one of them.
    If you refused your UK one would be renounced.
    If you hold two or more foreign nationalities I don’t care, if you enter the UK as a particular national you will be treated as a national of that country until you leave.

  19. It might have been to Britain’s advantage to have adopted some such law in 1948, rather than the cock-up that was actually introduced.

  20. If I was in charge of the UK dual UK/other nationality would not be allowed, you would be asked to relinquish one of them.

    If you refused your UK one would be renounced.

    The problem here is that this kind of problem would further exasperate the problem of Northern Ireland where both Catholics and Protestants have the inherent right of Irish citizenship as well as holding UK citizenship.

    Any move to make them choose would be against the Belfast Agreement, which took long enough to organise in the first place.

    It depends what you are trying to achieve. I must say that banning dual nationality doesn’t achieve very much at all for either side.

    Given BREXIT, I’d expect dual nationality (and therefore passport) applications to rise for those who can claim Irish citizenship through either a parent or grandparent as it preserves access to live and work in the EU.

  21. Interesting. So Marine intends in dealing with France’s muslim problems & is getting her ducks in a row first. She doesn’t want equivalence arguments from the usual voices.
    This only looks “bad” from the UK because the UK political class & its self described liberals have “principles”. Well, “principles” when abiding by them doesn’t affect them personally.
    She looks bad the same way Trump looks bad. Because Brits are not used to their politicians sticking up for the interests of the British. Not just the chattering classes.

  22. Canada has recently introduced policy that if a Canadian citizen you have to enter the country using your Canadian passport.
    Recent trip to U.K. I entered UK with UK passport and then used my Canadian passport on return. Makes for much quicker queuing at border if nothing else as you can use the scanners/gates system.
    Going to US I use Canadian if as it makes it a lot easier

  23. John Galt,

    ‘inherent right of Irish citizenship as well as holding UK citizenship’

    not a problem, no one is stopping them relinquishing UK and automatically gaining Irish (or vice versa).
    Regaining UK at some point after relinquishing UK should be more difficult.
    If the Irish let you hold other nationalities simultaneously then that is up to them, you just wouldn’t be able to have the UK as one of them.

    ‘doesn’t achieve very much at all for either side’

    The present system is discriminatory, some UK citizens can have dual nationality whereas others can’t.

  24. Sorry, but I don’t understand the problem with dual/triple. Liberty and all that. It’s just a notebook with an “I’m not a bot” picture in it.

    And anyway, simple practicality says so what. Even if (very rarely) one is caught with the other, then “it’s been cancelled and the cancellation papers are back in the other jurisdiction”, or who cares…

    I’m being simplistic, but why are we succumbing to fascists?

  25. “I forgot to add that when we crossed the border from Germany into France in 1989, we were never stopped and nobody anywhere checked for our visas.” I entered Switzerland like that in ’67.

  26. “It’s a bizarre policy anyway, because people’s allegiances are not determined by which passport they carry.”

    True to some extent, and yes- Jews are loyal to Israel regardless of the passport they carry, as Han are to the PRC. However, there are some very good reasons to not want your citizens to hold other passports. Many Jewish criminals have used their Israeli citizenship as a bolthole to avoid any prosecution after committing heinous crimes in other countries- usually just fraudsters, but even murderers and pedophiles, to the point where Haaretz last year ran an article titled “Israel Becoming a ‘Refuge for Pedophiles,’ Warns Advocate for Child Sex Abuse Victims“.

  27. Dual citizenship (or multiple – I’m on my third, albeit have already lost one of my birth citizenships) is only ever opposed by those for whom it is out of reach. The rest of us realise it’s about convenience, security, and bugger all to do with romantic notions of fealty to one or other princedom. The legal rights obtained are great in comparison to the hypothetical loss of not being able to claim consular protection from one against the authorities of the other.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *