There is an element of having written this only to be able to say this

But then the rep for the Police Federation which, for those who don’t know, is the union policemen aren’t allowed to have. The job of a rep for which is to say that there should be many more Police Federation members being paid ever-escalating amounts of money. This isn’t something to complain about. That would be like whining that the pitbull won’t let go of your ankle; this is what they are for.

But it is worth examining whether these claims of ever fewer police are in fact true. The answer being up to a point Lord Copper.

And my thanks to Louis R who dug out the old police numbers for me, unprompted I might add.

59 thoughts on “There is an element of having written this only to be able to say this”

  1. I seem to recall that some time ago, long before digital etc. that there was a debate about the numbers of police officers in large offices and stations just answering the telephones. It was regarded as something that those close to the end of their time could do, especially if a knee had gone wonky etc. What the figures might be is a guess, but there were rather a lot.

  2. Good article, Tim. The Police Federation are shameless. That said, though, I’ve known some very decent and dedicated coppers. My main gripe with the Police is that the senior ranks decide which laws they will enforce and which they will ignore or downgrade.

    OT, I read yesterday that the Birmingham Central Mosque demanded that only two named police officers could enter the mosque, and the local police agreed! ‘Community cohesion’ trumps ‘public safety’, apparently.

  3. Donkeys years ago there were a lot less police officers (and no plastic ones) but there were local police stations everywhere, in rural areas there was a police house where the local bobby lived so whilst plod were fewer in number that was catered for by increased availability (you could get him out of bed if you needed to).

    TPTB could not be assured that the local plod would carry out dubious policing measures against the local citizenry because those plods had to live in the area afterwards so they closed the police houses and local stations.

    People say they want more coppers on the beat when what they really mean is they want recognisable faces rather than unknown paramilitaries shipped in when there is trouble.

  4. I remember Polly Toynbee many years ago being interviewed on TV and saying that the odds of a policeman being on the scene when a crime was committed was some infinitesimal percentage. Sadly TPTB obviously paid attention to this and missed the point that a local beat officer builds up a network of contacts and informants (not necessarily at a criminal level) so that he or she is informed about what’s happening on their patch and can also provide reassurance to the local population.

  5. Two other things to consider:

    1. Far more of the world has been criminalized over the last few decades. When I was young, a kid who misbehaved could have the fear of God put into him by parents or the police, without any need to drag them down to the police station. But now they’re pushed through the legal system with all the paperwork that entails.

    2. Paperwork. As I understand it, thanks to ‘human rights’ there is now vastly more paperwork required, so what used to be a simple arrest can take all day.

    The problem isn’t police, it’s government and their stupid policies. Few things have been worse for most of Britain’s population than ‘human rights’.

  6. The Inimitable Steve

    Police numbers are irrelevant when the police refuse to investigate Moslem gangsters, child molesters, and terrorists until it’s too late.

    Kriss Donald – a 15 year old boy in Glasgow was abducted at random by a gang of Pakistanis. They tortured him for hours, castrated him, stabbed him, doused him in petrol, and burned him to death. One of them later admitted “we just wanted to kill a white Scottish boy”.

    The first thing the police did was to stand in front of the press denying that it was a racially motivated murder. It soon transpired the police had abandoned a task force on Asian (i.e. Moslem) gang activity, out of fear of being called racist.

    Rotherham – the police turned a deaf ear to many complaints, including desperate pleas from the victims. They allowed 1,400 little girls to be drugged, raped and prostituted by Moslem gangs, because they were afraid of being called racist.

    Manchester – Salman Abedi was reported to the authorities on at least 5 occasions before he decided to murder or maim little girls at a concert. The authorities did nothing.

    London – according to one eyewitness account reported in the Guardian, some of the police ran away from the knife-wielding Moslems. At least one of the terrorists was reported to police prior to the attack. They did nothing until 8 people were brutally murdered in public.

    But on the bright side, our courageous coppers are pretty damn quick to arrest people who offend Moslems on YouTube and Twitter!

  7. One really useful side effect of comment sections in papers like the torygraph was seeing that plod had lost the confidence and respect of the middle class in general and it wasn’t just me.

    When they turn up to a crime scene and take down details of how you defended yourself to see if they can get a free conviction from your inadvertant admission of guilt.

    When you can see that they can’t be arsed to do their own job, but come down hard on anybody trying to defend life or property.

    Turns out they’re not just a waste of space but a positive menace.

    I holiday in Spain and see police officers out and about at least five times a day, doing stuff people are concerned about. Back in the UK it can be weeks between seeing an officer who seems to think we are here to be commanded, not served.

  8. “At least one of the terrorists was reported to police prior to the attack. They did nothing until 8 people were brutally murdered in public.”

    Not so, Steve. They released him on police bail. Yes, he was on police bail when he murdered 8.

  9. Really Timmy, you couldn’t pick a dog that actually does latch on to ankles, like chihuahuas?

  10. Social Justice Warrior

    I read yesterday that the Birmingham Central Mosque demanded that only two named police officers could enter the mosque, and the local police agreed!

    It was a Katie Hopkins tweet, quoting an anonymous source. The police have denied it emphatically.

  11. “the senior ranks decide which laws they will enforce and which they will ignore or downgrade.” There are too many laws so somebody has to decide. The tragedy is that the senior ranks all seem to have been Blairised.

  12. Jesus fucking H. A hung parliament. Seriously?

    If so, May’s toast. British stupid, don’t deserve Brexit.

  13. Even if the exit poll is a bit wrong (like last time) and there is actually a small Conservative majority, Brexit is imperilled. There’ll be enough parliamentary votes and the right mood for mischief.

  14. I’m not panicking too much yet. If I remember the last election correctly, the exit polls had it down as a hung parliament.

    If it’s right though, dear god I fear for the UK.

  15. If that poll is correct then it’s a fucking disaster. How can over a third of the population want to put a cunt like Corbyn in charge? It’s unbelievable.

  16. “If so, May’s toast”

    But only if she is booted out while the Tories are trying to form a coalition or run with country with a minority government. It may be that she, and we, have no choice but for her to continue.


  17. Bloke in Costa Rica

    Well, bye bye Brexit. Hello Manchester/London Bridge ×100. You stupid, stupid cunts.

  18. What the fuck was she thinking when she signed off on that “dementia tax” and the announcement about ripping up the HRA?

    Those things need doing but you have to be in power in the first place to do them!

  19. Incidentally, Charles Moore in this week’s Spectator:

    Watching a large number of debates and question and answer sessions with party leaders and the public, I noticed, even more insistent than in the past, the righteous tone of the recipient (or would-be recipient) of state money. Whether it was a teacher or health worker, a person on benefits, a young woman wanting her tuition fees paid, or an old man sitting on a house worth (say) £750,000 and demanding that the state bear his putative long-term care needs so that he will not have to sell it, the speaker almost always seemed to possess an impermeable sense of being a virtuous, wronged person. The idea that it is not always good for the state to pay for something, or that there just isn’t enough money to do it, or that the cost may bear heavily on taxpayers many of whom will be poorer than the recipient, seemed to make no impression at all. This is boosted by the dramatic convention, fostered by the broadcasters, that if someone — disabled, unemployed, mentally ill, immigrant, young or very old — complains of personal ill-treatment, he or she cannot be disagreed with. The ugly flip-side of this convention is that the politician who won’t promise them what they want is seen as a bad person — tight-fisted, uncaring, as if it were his own money he was refusing to dispense. I do realise that significant numbers of those complaining have genuine problems for which state help may be beneficial and right. But the way these matters are discussed — on television at least — suggests that the welfare state is extremely bad for the character.

  20. I don’t think Katya Adler on the BBC is wearing anything under that coat. She’s on that balcony desperate for a shag.

  21. @ AndrewC
    The pollsters told her that she was *certain* to win a landslide so she put into the Manifesto all the stuff that the House of Lords loaded with Blairites would block if she didn’t have a clear mandate for them.
    Sadly, one of them that I support despite being a potential “victim” (having saved almost all my life, I have some money that she would like me to pay for my care if and when I am no longer able to look after myself) whereas Corbyn thinks that people *earning* less than half my pension should pay for it instead of me – seems to have lost the election.
    “Put not your in princes” – nor pollsters.

  22. @john77.

    I tend to agree with the policy. We have to be prepared to fund our own old age.

    The presentation was just a complete dog’s dinner.

  23. Bloke in Costa Rica

    It was a completely unforced error. If we lose Brexit because of this then the question of who pays for what is immaterial.

  24. It takes a special kind of incompetence to have let Jeremy Corbyn, John McDonnell at al anywhere near the reins of power.

    Just think how unimaginable a hung parliament would have been a year ago.

  25. It seems to be a toss up as to where the UKIP votes are going.

    Oh, and Emily Fatberry is on with her fat, smug smiling face. Blood pressure up.

  26. May is in trouble for the same reason Cameron had to form a coalition; a pig-headed refusal to offer the electorate the policies they want.

  27. Bloke in Costa Rica

    The country’s done. There’s no way back after this. It’s tantamount to Hillary Clinton winning. Worse, probably.

  28. Roue, what policies do the electorate want?
    I’m part of the electorate and I haven’t a clue what policies 46 million people want.

    I know there is a chunk that want lots of spending and not have to pay for it themselves. Dreamland we would say but they believe it.
    I know there is a chunk that do not want lots of spending because they know they will be paying for it.
    Which of them should have policies offered to suit them?

  29. Bloke in Costa Rica

    Apparently they want Jeremy Corbyn as PM. The bookies have him as favourite now. Can you imagine writing that six weeks ago? I am very frightened.

  30. Bloke in North Dorset

    Well that’s a complete fuck up. I now need to stay up and talk to my IFA gat the rest of my savings into something safe ASAP.

  31. Bloke in North Dorset

    The last time that happened we ended up with Callaghan having said that the alternative was Heath.

    It’s starting to look like a May is more incompetent than Heath.

  32. Lots of theories. Mine is Manchester. That’s when the polls changed dramatically and it all went south for the Tories.

    The jihad killed the children and the country doesn’t want to fight. It has chosen capitulation.

  33. @PJF, in my constituency UKIP didn’t field a candidate this time. The Tories increased their vote by 20 (yes, twenty votes).

    Labour have increased their vote by 5,000.

    This was an ultra-marginal that the Tories should have easily won, but it seemed like they didn’t even bother contesting it. Meanwhile Labour were out in force every day for weeks. Either they stole the UKIP vote AND got more voters out, or the UKIP vote stayed at home and Labour got a LOT more voters out this time.

    It’s just been an utterly diabolical campaign.

  34. PJF, it wasn’t Manchester. It was the manifesto. Couldn’t have been better designed to piss off the base and UKIP voters.

  35. Bloke in Costa Rica

    I am going to bed early. Maybe when I wake up it will prove to have all been a bad dream.

  36. Martin,
    What they wanted to hear was “we’re coming down on the jihadis like a ton of bricks” what they got was “we’re coming down on people who say nasty things about jihadis like a ton of bricks”.

    There are two reasons for May’s poor showing. Firstly, there are millions of people who depend on the state for their livelihood who will vote Labour regardless of the mong in charge because Labour is the political wing of the state. And secondly, like Cameron before her, she refuses to go the country on a Conservative platform, balanced budget, cutting red tape, etc. And so Conservatives stay at home.

    All she has to say is that in future Muslims will be subject to the same laws as everyone​ else and she’s home. How is that too much to ask? But she can’t or won’t do it.

  37. Roue Le Jour: “Martin,
    What they wanted to hear was “we’re coming down on the jihadis like a ton of bricks” what they got was “we’re coming down on people who say nasty things about jihadis like a ton of bricks”.”

    This x 1000

  38. Thucydides wrote something along the lines that you had a war every time there were enough young people around who hadn’t lived through the last one and so didn’t realise how shit they are.

    Maybe it is the same with socialist governments?

  39. The jihad killed the children and the country doesn’t want to fight. It has chosen capitulation.


    There are dark days ahead – a weak parliament in charge of Brexit negotiations is not good.
    Our decline as a nation just changed up a gear.

    It is a shame.

  40. If the Torys get the 318 then an alliance with the 10 strong DUP will give them a tiny majority.

    Enough to force thro boundary changes.

    Clearly remainiac tory scum have voted thinking to give Brexit a black eye. However I doubt that they thought that their cozy middle-class lifestyles would come so close to Corbyn’s dirty fingernails and many will presently be pissing their pants at the prospect that they might be the ones to be taught a lesson.

    The leftist weaponised pollsters have learned from their mistakes. They played on false confidence. So that lots of folk thought that they could afford to teach May a lesson a by abstaining or voting Ukip. Exactly the opposite of last year.

    Meanwhile ZaNu has busted a gut to get every piece of shit they have out. Scroungers, young snot Uni Marxists, freebie-seekers, greenfreaks and of course our dear bearded chums, Who were imported for just such a purpose.

    ZaNu has made a supreme effort while we have snoozed complacently think we had the luxury of a protest vote or abstention against Fishface.

    Boundary changes must go thro’ and wipe out ZaNu’s 40 seat advantage.

    Will remainiac Tory MPs give trouble? Maybe. But I suspect this caper will have frightened the shit out of them. The prospect of Britain’s very own Hugo Chavez forming a govt should concentraite their minds wonderfully.

    I hope the Tories will behave with maximum vindictiveness toward May and her cronies who are the authors of this mess.

    Britain has not undergone a mass change of heart in a few months. Our foes put everything they have into a punch while too many of the good guys stayed at home and this fucking mess is the result.

    Lets never do this again OK?.

  41. It’s not that Tory voters didn’t come out – their vote was up. It’s just that Labour got more people out by a combination of fools thinking that socialism is nice and kind and that if ‘the rich’ only pay more they can all have free stuff. This is the logical end point of stupid people being indoctrinated by the left media and teachers. I hate to be dramatic but I think the country is ruined.

  42. @Interested.

    Yes. This all over. Promising free stuff to people paid for by those who “can afford to pay more” results in lots of people voting to get said free stuff. We see Indians and Pakistani politicians bribing their electorate, some directly with cash, but ours are just as bad. The idea that the state is here to distribute largesse on the population rather than pick up market failures and compensate for genuine misfortune is embedded so deeply we need another Thatcher.

    Alas to have another Thatcher we will have to have another 1970s crisis. This we may yet have given high stakes Brexit, huge liabilities the state carries and idiot politicians and people.

    I work with supposedly smart people who can’t see this and talk about government expenditure as if they are an unmitigated good thing.

  43. OK come down on Jihadis like a ton of bricks.
    Exactly how?

    Courts? Politicians do not control judges. Can get the judges to rebel against government interference though

  44. OK Tim, I have read the linked document and there you do indeed have a point.

    Could we please not have (ie you provide) plots by year of police officers from year-X (let’s try X=1970), PCSOs from year-X, with and without normalisation for population.

    We might add to those, helpfully if practical, man(people)-power on intelligence gathering in the Security Service (and some relevant aspect of associated effort in GCHQ) on law enforcement actions against terrorism and against organised serious crime.

    Without these more comprehensive statistics of year-by-year man(people)-power, the somewhat-thinking electorate (readership of your blog) is screwed by the Westminster Village and its hangers-on (including those in the MSM).

    Please excuse me for not reading all of the 58 comments, at this time.

    Best regards

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