Yes, they’re still lying

Even when they’ve been told not to:

This is undoubtedly reflected at a national level: women working full-time in the UK earn on average 13.9% less than men,

From the Fawcett Society:

The current overall gap for full time workers is 13.9%

They’ve been told, again and again, that the mean is misleading, it is the median – just under 10% – which should be used.

15 thoughts on “Yes, they’re still lying”

  1. “…I opened an email with a job offer. It contained lots of flattering things about how great I was and how much the organisation wanted to work with me. It also contained a take-it-or-leave-it salary offer that was explicitly non-negotiable.”

    Good for you. If this really is the way forward, companies will gradually take it up. They won’t need to be forced into it.

    The fact that you demand they are forced into it is telling.

  2. If they’re EARNING 13% less it’s because they’re WORKING 13% less. If you want to EARN more you have to DO more. It’s been illegal to pay different amounts for the same work for more than 40 years.

  3. And what’s this nonsense about “negotiate” a salary? If the job advert says £10.50 an hour, it’s £10.50 an hour. Full stop. If you want more than £10.50 an hour, apply for something else.

    What is probably underlying these result is that men are more likely to think “nah, won’t apply for that, I’ll keep looking”* whereas women are more like to think “shall I keep looking? no, I’ll go for this one”. What’s the solution? Force women at gun-point to expand their job search range?

    *Which is another thing I don’t understand. It’s saying “shall I take this job and eat, or shall I keep looking and starve?”

  4. Many years ago a company called EDS recruited and asked applicants at the interview what salary they wanted.
    When they got the job offer that was the salary they were on.

    Too high asked for and simply dropped from shortlist, too low and seen as possibly moving on to better job.
    Had several friends who got jobs there that were on quite different salary for the same job.

    Oh and its pretty common in the UK to pay different people different amounts for the same work.
    Look at jobs with pay progression – the people who have been there years are usually on more than the people just starting.
    If everyone gets say 2% pay rise and the pay progression is another 2% up the ladder (for those that have ladders, some have a bed) then a 4% total pay rise for the person but the starting pay for new staff only goes up 2%..

  5. When I spotted two men were being paid more money but doing equivalent jobs to mine, I raised it with my manager. He got offended that I thought he was sexist and reported me to HR.

    Lol. Two can play The Outrage Game, dear. A harsh lesson.

    So why allow employees to negotiate?

    Because we aren’t Soviet Russia?

    Getting rid of salary negotiations and introducing public pay scales is only one piece of the puzzle. At SumOfUs, we’ve put a lot of thought into how to hire for excellence and diversity.

    Ah, was waiting for this.

    Anyway, salary scales are shit, and won’t solve the problem she is whining about, which is that some people are paid more than others for the same role, unless your ‘scale’ has a difference of one pound.

    Take a role like “software developer”, which I have experience of. What should the scale be? How do you account for someone with five years experience vs someone with twenty? Someone who has experience across a wide range of languages and environments vs someone limited to one area? Someone who writes good quality code with tests vs someone who slaps out some shit and goes home?

    So please, fuck off. All those people who want to be paid the same as someone who is better at their job than them, fuck off.

  6. Yes, it’s very common to pay for experience, even when doing the same job. This is the fundamental cause of the pay gap between people who have taken time off to raise children and those that haven’t. Employers will pay a 50-year-old with 30 years’ experience more than a 50-year-old with 15 years’ experience for doing exactly the same job. Is this fair? I don’t know, but campaigners have to come clean and admit that that’s actually what they are campaigning for, for somebody’s experience to not be a factor in the amount they are paid.

    As a concrete example. Two people qualify as teachers at 25. Both of them do exactly the same teaching for five years. Then, one of them choses to take 15 years off, and the other choses to keep teaching exactly the same job for 15 years. Same job, doesn’t take on management responsibility, doesn’t become a subject head or year head, continues standing in front of a room of 30 kids imparting knowledge. When they are both 45 years old, the first person comes back into teaching. Should they both be paid exactly the same for doing exactly the same teaching job, where one of them has only five years’ experience, and the other has 20 years’ experience?

  7. A quick question. In the UK, can women still retire 5 years earlier than men?

    If so, should this be reflected in wages? Those extra 5 years of retirement will need to be paid for somehow. But then, if women earn less, they pay less NI, therefore less for state pensions…

    I can’t seem to work it out 🙁

  8. A quick question. In the UK, can women still retire 5 years earlier than men?

    Not any more. From April 2018 it is 64.5 years for women, 65 for men.

    There was an article on the BBC a few days ago bemoaning the fact that women’s pension age was rising to match that of men. Funny how equality isn’t so good after all, eh?

  9. Pension is not based on how much NI you paid but how many years you paid it.
    Whether you pay £5 a year NI or £500 a year NI your pension is the same if you have a full year of NI credited.

  10. They even have the audacity to call themselves “Women Against State Pension Inequality” – but they’re campaiging *FOR* pension inequality.

    They claim they didn’t know it was happening, but I remember talking to my Mum about it in about 1995, comparing her position (born before 1950) with her sister’s (born after 1950). My Mum isn’t exactly the sharpest spoon in the drawer, and if she knew about it, the disbelief is too hard to suspend to believe millions of women didn’t know about it.

  11. Yes, after a lot of digging, I finally worked out that the UK State Pension is this graph, which as you notice is only measured in years paid in, not pounds paid in.

    That graph assumes you have no other income coming in, this graph shows the result of other income.

    If government agents would actually present things graphically like this it would make it so much easier to understand.

  12. Nobody has yet brought up maximising utility. A woman might choose a lower paid job closer to home. If she expanded the horizon of her job search further afield she might get paid more, but she might have to commute an extra hour per day which means an extra hours childcare for each child. So the job further afield might have to earn 30% more just to break even, with out even taking in to account opportunity cost of time out of the home and away from the family. To provide a decent margin to make that further afield job worthwhile She might have to earn close to 50% more.

    Now consider the fact there are 2 million single parent households in the uk.

  13. As others have commented, equal pay for equal work (or “the same job”) is complete and utter bollocks. Public sector payscales highlight this failing perfectly.

    What you need, and what any business with any sense should logically tend towards (whilst trying to minimise costs obviously), is equal pay for equal outcomes (ie achievements delivered). Even shelf stacking – 20 items per minute versus 5 items per minute, why should it be illegal to differentiate, or not reward the energetic one appropriately?

  14. “Ban individual salary negotiations”

    Because women aren’t individuals, they are a group. If they were individuals, you wouldn’t need the Faucet Soceity.

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