Cat, pigeons

On a day marred by clashes between police and voters, 2.26 million people took part in the referendum, regional government spokesman Jordi Turull said. That represents a turnout of 42.3 percent of Catalonia’s 5.34 million voters.

Of those who took part, 2.02 million Catalans voted “yes” to the question: “Do you want Catalonia to become an independent state in the form of a republic?”

People aren’t going to risk being beaten by the police to vote no now, are they?

Before the results were announced, he said he would keep his pledge to declare independence unilaterally within 48 hours of the vote if the “Yes” side won the referendum.

This is going to get very messy very fast.

41 thoughts on “Cat, pigeons”

  1. So Much For Subtlety

    So a bit less than 40% of voters supported independence? The problem is that this allows both sides to claim victory.

    Independence movements are rarely supported by most voters. By and large it is usually a good idea to let people vote. If the British had let the Americans vote it is unlikely they would have voted for independence. The Spanish government could have just ignored the result and they will be supported by most of the rest of Europe.

    However if they were going to intervene, they should have done so properly. Curfews. Soldiers occupying City Hall. Tanks on the street. Sending just enough police to annoy but not enough to close down the vote is just foolishness.

    Still I did like this:

    “A true friend of Spain would tell them today’s actions wrong and damaging,” Scotland’s First Minister said.

    Methinks the Fish Faced one does not understand what a true friend is.

  2. Trying to prevent the vote from happening with brute force was about the most stupid thing they could have done. Really, really stupid.

  3. I’m waiting for the independence cheerleaders at the graun to realise that independence is most unsocialist (stop giving taxes to poor regions) and comes with an inevitable and permanent exit from the EU.

  4. Maritime Barbarian

    Using enough violence to anger people but not enough to intimidate is really stupid.
    If you don’t play the Stalin you end up playing the fool.

  5. Actually this proves that this is a domestic cock up rather than anything to do with the EU. Their advice would be to allow the vote to go ahead, then ignore it.

  6. The SCW 36-39 is my favourite historical civil war from a historical perspective.

    I didn’t expect a sequel

  7. Maritime Barbarian

    Lud – yes. My favourite is the US one.

    Back in about 1972 I heard a speaker refer to WW2 as a “European civil war”. He was of course in favour of European union.

  8. The actions of the Spanish government are almost incomprehensible. If I was a Catalan and hedging towards ‘No’ from sheer inertia or conservatism, I would see what is in effect a foreign power beating up fellow citizens just for voting and would step straight into the ‘Yes’ camp. That’s the sort of nation they want us to belong to?

  9. abacab – yes it was risky. One dead person from a police push and the game is up. If the court could have declared the action ultra vires and put the leaders on the spot for the cost it might have concentrated the minds somewhat. Ultimately you can’t deny self determination so the better thing would have been to concede and declared a legal referendum.

  10. If you can call it a civil war (not sure if it counts as a civil war when a country intervenes in a client state to install their preferred dictator), the Anglo-Zanzibar war of 27 August 1896 (0900-0940) has to be the best ever.

  11. Arnold Rimmer, more useful than a garden strimmer

    Red Dwarf is for the most part fantastic, but there is so much of it, I can’t help being a little concerned about people who can always remember the right quote.

  12. Bloke in North Dorset

    As HB says, the issue here shouldn’t have been whether or not the can hold a referendum, free association being a key part of a democracy, but whether or not that tax payer can be made to pay for it.

  13. The Catalans are –as far as I can gather–rotten with leftism and leftist anarchism.

    So normally this is a movement I would not be keen on.

    But anything that helps undermine a major EU stooge like Spain is good . And is also bad news for the ESPEW too.

    Hurrah for and Homage to Catalonia.

    And a special prize to Don Dago of Madrid–well done that man for the worst handling of a secession issue since Old Abe Lincoln opened the USA for Bullets n’Beer .

    Makes the SNP Chronicles ( “The Game of Moans”) look like statesmanship on steroids.

  14. Solid Steve 2: Squirrels of The Patriots

    and comes with an inevitable and permanent exit from the EU.

    Hmm. Does it though? I can’t see the EU letting more territory slip from its tentacly grasp.

    I can see them imposing unfavorable terms on them.

  15. They were happy to let Scotland go. Which isn’t consistent with either the “territory” narrative or the “we want to carve Britain up” narrative. It’s simply pour encourager les autres.

    It’s easily forgotten in the red mist of EUphobia that the EU hierarchy is first and foremost answerable to (and dependent upon) the national governments for existence, and national governments are not generally keen on losing bits of their countries. Thus neither is the EU.

    There is also the slight technicality that a seceding country leaves and has to reapply for membership. Spain would probably veto that forever, or accept only under terms that were ruinous for Catalonia (and/or everyone else).

  16. Red Mist Biggie?

    To be wary of deservedly hated enemies is no “phobia” ( and beneath you to fall to leftist verbal tricks) but a necessary step to the destruction of said enemy.

    Which should be the British states war aim re the EU.

  17. SMFS – the americans did vote for independence. Twice.
    First time round the majority preferred things the way they were.
    So when the rebels won with the help of the French some of those people left and went elsewhere. Canada was a favourite destination.

    2nd time around a bunch of states left the union and one part of one state left the secessionists and joined the union.
    Result being the bloodiest rebellion the US ever had.

  18. Solid Steve 2: Squirrels of The Patriots

    They were happy to let Scotland go.

    Pfft. If you believe that, I have a fictional bridge to sell you, printed on funny money.

    There is also the slight technicality that a seceding country leaves and has to reapply for membership. Spain would probably veto that forever

    Yeah, talk is cheap. Spain talked tough about preventing the Catalan referendum too.

    The EU can’t afford to let people leave so easily, as our Brexit negotiators are discovering. At the end of the day we all know the EU doesn’t consider itself bound by such trifles as its own rules. A deal will be worked out to keep Catalonia in the EU, and Spain will have to lump it.

  19. Solid Steve 2-
    “A deal will be worked out to keep Catalonia in the EU, and Spain will have to lump it.”

    Indeed and am i cynical in thinking that a fair ol whack of all that dosh Catalans resentfully handover to his majesties government will be the price they have to pay.

  20. ‘Before the results were announced, he said he would keep his pledge to declare independence unilaterally within 48 hours of the vote if the “Yes” side won the referendum.’

    I wish y’all had done Brexit that way.

    ‘“A true friend of Spain would tell them today’s actions wrong and damaging,” Scotland’s First Minister said.’

    Is Scotland’s First Minister a ‘true Scotsman?’

  21. BiC;

    It wouldn’t necessarily affect the euro; political uncertainty would hit sovereign debt first, pushing up yields, which may or may not spread to equities.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-10-02/spain-bonds-fall-as-catalans-signal-may-declare-independence

    Depends on how it pans out from here, as to whether the euro is affected or not. Eurostat puts Spanish GDP at 7.5% (2016) of EU28 GDP, so a higher proportion of eurozone GDP, and seems that Spanish debt is just over a tenth of eurozone debt. Kind of depends who holds that debt.

  22. Solid Steve 2: Squirrels of The Patriots

    am i cynical in thinking that a fair ol whack of all that dosh Catalans resentfully handover to his majesties government will be the price they have to pay.

    Given the personalities involved, it’s bound to be something sordid and gay.

    Is Scotland’s First Minister a ‘true Scotsman?’

    She looks like one.

  23. Edward Lud: There’s such a thing as a favourite civil war?

    Quite. So many lovely ones to choose from.

  24. Back in about 1972 I heard a speaker refer to WW2 as a “European civil war”.

    The speaker would be closer to the truth if they’d meant WWI.

  25. “The speaker would be closer to the truth if they’d meant WWI.”

    And the world would have been a far better place if the U.S. had stayed the hell out of it.

  26. Guy Verhofstadt has called the Spanish state’s use of violence “disproportionate”. Not wrong; disproportionate.

    Quite right too. The EU guarantees it’s citizens it will be proportionate in the violence it metes out to unarmed people trying to vote in a way the EU does not like.

    Looks like they miscalculated what proportionate needs to be here in the UK then doesn’t it.

  27. Doing a bit of research, I was surprised to find that Catalonia seems to be both the richest part of Spain and the most lefty part of Spain.

  28. Catalonia is lefty because they think they’re still fighting Franco. Memories are long in those parts, and even people who weren’t actually there (more or less everyone, by now) still retain ‘folk’ memories.

  29. Bloke in Germany

    How about independant to enjoy self-determination; simple as that? I don’t understand what your problem is with that. Just imagine if the world had taken your high handed view when India asked for exactly the same thing.

    The EU bureaucracts are answerable to The Project; nothing else.

  30. @MarkT, October 2, 2017 at 7:33 am

    Actually this proves that this is a domestic cock up rather than anything to do with the EU. Their advice would be to allow the vote to go ahead, then ignore it.

    Yes, but, we are talking about a European country, not an Anglo country – different legal system.

    It is unconstitutional under the 1978 Spanish constitution.

    Opinion poll in June showed majority of Catalonians did not want a referendum, and Catalan coalition government did not win a majority in last election.

    There is no democracy in the Catalan referendum. It’s a political stunt to generate unrest.

    That said, police response did appear OTT by our standards. However, normal by French & PIGS standards.

  31. Pcar

    Thank you. Now I understand why it is reasonable and proportionate to blind unarmed men with rubber bullets, to pull teenage girls.along the ground by their hair, to beat pensioners to a pulp.
    Because these people cast an UNCONSTITUTIONAL vote, placed their cross UNDEMOCRATICALLY on a slip.of paper. Hadn’t they noted the polls? No, they are all fucking terrorists and they deserved what they got. So thank you Pcar, Franco’s little soldier, for defending democracy against those unarmed thugs.

  32. @ Gamecock
    The USA did not change the outcome of WWI: they just accelerated it. What would have made the world a far better place would have been the USA taking a reasonable stance at Versaille afterwards.Not that it was the prime cause of the vindictive treaty that led to the rise of Hitler, but it might have toned it down as it had not suffered like France.

  33. Ironman, please try to distinguish satire of the allegation that voting for tax cuts is somehow “leftist” from a criticism of thw right to self determination. A lie down in a darkened room might help.

  34. @Ironman, October 2, 2017 at 9:18 pm

    Because these people cast an UNCONSTITUTIONAL vote, placed their cross UNDEMOCRATICALLY on a slip.of paper. Hadn’t they noted the polls? No, they are all fucking terrorists and they deserved what they got.

    Yep, that is Spanish Gov’t & EU belief.

    So thank you Pcar, Franco’s little soldier, for defending democracy against those unarmed thugs

    Nope, I did not & do not defend it. I was highlighting how we diiffer.

    Thank God we’re leaving the EU dictatorship.

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