Well, obviously this would happen

It can also be revealed that until last week Mermaids was advertising “same day” cross-sex hormone treatment for children. NHS guidelines do not allow the treatment, which causes irreversible bodily changes and can compromise fertility, for anyone under 16.

In a court case, reported last year, Mr Justice Hayden removed the seven-year-old child, known as “J”, from his mother after finding she had caused him “significant emotional harm” and “pressed [him] into a gender identification that had far more to do with his mother’s needs and little, if anything, to do with his own”.

There really are people out there more than a little nutty on every subject under the Sun. This will be true of sex changes for kids just as with anything else. Clearly and obviously this will happen.

75 thoughts on “Well, obviously this would happen”

  1. The overwhelming majority of these young kid trans and gender neutral cases seem to be:

    a) more about the parents than the kids, and
    b) almost exclusively male kids being encouraged/forced to adopt traditionally female habits. You rarely see it the other way around. Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie’s 11 year old daughter being a notable exception, but frankly we don’t even let 11 year olds choose their subjects at school, let alone something life-changing and potentially life-ruining.

  2. You know when and where this stuff was invented? Weimar Germany.

    We may not all like everything that happened after, but let’s hope that all these perverts who convince confused (or, in this case, apparently NOT EVEN CONFUSED) children (and adults) to permanently maim themselves get the same treatment that their forebears did.

    Even in today’s environment, this behaviour should have the government hunting down anyone involved with this organisation down like dogs.

  3. @abacab: You’re missing a trick there, mate. It’s almost exclusively boys being abused by their single mothers.

    The ‘FtM’ nature of the Brangelina screwup is far less unusual than the fact that the poor child actually had a father in the picture.

    Of course, Hollyweird being Hollyweird, she’s probably already been on the casting couch. So not surprising there’s some sexual trauma there.

  4. I am unconvinced that a medical condition that did not exist 50 years ago, now exists with sufficient frequency that we have to alter social policy. I don’t believe that even 1-in-a-1000 of these gender idiocy cases are legitimate and probably much less than that, they are mentally ill people who revel in the attention it brings them. Being confined to a metal institution is the appropriate response.

  5. @Mr Black

    I think it probably did exist, but since a) nothing could be done about it, and b) social opprobrium related to doing anything about it rather than just wearing more masculine hair and clothes and “sharing lodgings” with a lady friend.

    An example of the latter would be Miss Marjorie Foster, who won the King’s Prize for rifle shooting in 1930. She would undoubtedly have been considered as trans today:

    http://intriguing-people.com/marjorie-foster/

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mp6_NFZBHWc

  6. But I think that back in the day people who genuinely suffered from gender dysphoria just had to suck it up and get on with life – there wasn’t a whole support network to validate their issue and get oppression points.

  7. The subject of trans children has as much authenticity as vegan cats.

    You know someones making the choice and it ain’t the children or the cats, no matter how happy they pretend to be in front of parent / owner…

  8. There really are people out there more than a little nutty on every subject under the Sun.

    And those are the ones our Government and bodies such as the Lottery Fund and Children in Need seek out and shower with cash.

    Hey, British public: when you donated money in response to pictures of weeping children on the BBC, I bet you didn’t think the BBC would give the money to a group causing the suffering, eh? Might have made you think twice, I expect.

    I wonder, is there any part of this country’s generally trusting and naive nature which hasn’t been exploited by head cases espousing ‘Progressive’ causes?

  9. Mr Black, many medical conditions didn’t exist 50 years ago. People still died of them, the condition just did not get accepted as existing until more recently.
    I’ve got one of them thanks.

    Probably existed as long as humans have, just not a survivable condition until recent decades.

  10. Millstones. Necks. Sea.

    Good plan, but let’s start with ending the funding and sacking, and perhaps even prosecuting if we can, anyone in any of those organisations involved with giving them this money.

  11. Mermaids was advertising “same day” cross-sex hormone treatment

    One thing which comes out of this episode is that State-funded healthcare can shift when it wants to.

  12. To Martin above:
    Since the mathematical probability of death is 1 (discounting resurrection as post-mortem anyway) – and we don’t need Doc Martin to tell us that, as in a recent episode of the TV (television) series:
    Child: “Am I going to die?”
    Doc Martin: “Yes, everybody dies. But not today.”

    then if you reduce the probability of one cause of death, the probabilities of all the other causes of death rise to compensate. If this means that death is deferred, the cause of death that increases most will be a problem of advanced age. When we reduce mortality from several old age complaints, the one that isn’t reduced looks like an epidemic (and that one seems to be Alzheimer’s in the UK at the moment).

    In researching Roman bronze and marble statues, I have come across ‘Hermaphroditos’, who seems to have male genitals and not both sets, combined with a female body, breasts, and to be dressed as a female with an appropriate hairdo. (The genitals bit is difficult, as female genitals were rather rare on statues, and the dress is only in non-nude statues. The size is the same as in all-male statues). It seems to me that this points to at least some interest in the issue back then, but apart from fantasizing, medical knowledge could not go further than castration – and they are not shown as castrated. Perhaps they knew of some source of female hormones.
    Other cultures do it: India (Hijra) and Thailand (‘ladyboys’).
    But, I agree, it seems to be the mothers that impose it most of the time, and common or not, in a western context it is clearly child abuse.

    And Witchie, isn’t the woman just an old-fashioned lesbian in the mould of George Eliot and others?

  13. Forty years ago, when I first visited my (still excellent) local pub (it wasn’t my ‘local’, then), it was run by two ladies, one of whom dressed in a tweed trouser suit and smoked a pipe. They were considered endearingly odd, but there was never any hint of ‘homophobia’ that I detected. Best pint of Courage ‘Directors’ in Bucks :).

  14. I don’t know why the gay lobby isn’t protesting this: these are effiminate boys being told they are actually girls and need medical intervention, rather than that when they grow up they are going to have heaps of fun as gay men.

  15. “You know when and where this stuff was invented? Weimar Germany.”

    You know what the convention is on Godwin’s law…

    “I am unconvinced that a medical condition that did not exist 50 years ago, now exists with sufficient frequency that we have to alter social policy.”

    Then you’re ignorant, and have no competence to be expressing an opinion on this.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elagabalus

    ” Being confined to a metal institution is the appropriate response.”

    Once you set the precedent of saying that imprisonment is justified for people who disagree with your ignorant delusions, you automatically justify the SJWs doing the same to you. Transphobia and homophobia are mental illnesses. They need to be confined in mental institutions for the protection of the public. (And I’ve seen the same argued for climate sceptics, and right-wingers generally.) That’s exactly the same argument, right?

    “But I think that back in the day people who genuinely suffered from gender dysphoria just had to suck it up and get on with life – there wasn’t a whole support network to validate their issue and get oppression points.”

    Same goes for homosexuality. Did Alan Turing get “oppression points”?

    For that matter, the same goes for any sort of social dissident, like people living in the Soviet Union who liked capitalism. Do we give right-wing dissidents sentenced to 10 years in the Gulag get “validation” and “oppression points”?

    There’s a difference between stopping the old oppression and starting up a new one.

    “The subject of trans children has as much authenticity as vegan cats.”

    Evidence?

    “You know someones making the choice and it ain’t the children or the cats, no matter how happy they pretend to be in front of parent / owner…”

    Evidence?

    “Millstones. Necks. Sea.”

    Stoning adulterers and witches to death.

    “Hey, British public: when you donated money in response to pictures of weeping children on the BBC, I bet you didn’t think the BBC would give the money to a group causing the suffering, eh? Might have made you think twice, I expect.”

    They might question whether they were.

    The article cleverly justaposes two separate cases, and leaves the incautious reader to draw a connection between them.

    Mermaids so far as I know only offers early hormone treatment to kids who are *very* sure and *very* obviously transgender. Others get puberty blockers, which is reversible. The court case involving ‘J’ was an entirely separate event, and no evidence is offered that Mermaids would or did offer such a treatment in such a case.

    Deceptive rhetoric of this sort might make the public think twice about the pressure groups opposing it, eh?

    Decision making under uncertainty always involves a trade-off between different sorts of harms. Extremist partisans always completely ignore one sort of harm and emphasise only the other.

    People have a right to make their own decisions about their own bodies, and for children, the general position is that the parents act on their behalf, rather than the state. Now, when it’s convenient, you’re asking for the state to be able to override the wishes of the parents? Or is that only when the parents disagree with *you*?

    Sheeesh! What does it take for people to understand?! Freedom means the freedom to make mistakes, and for people to do things you don’t agree with, or think wrong.

    Parents pressuring children into *any* gender not their own is wrong. Transgender people won’t disagree that the parent in the case cited was very wrong – but this is *exactly* the sort of emotional damage bigoted parents do to their transgender kids forcing them into the mold of society’s expectations, telling them they’ve “just had to suck it up and get on with life”. This event that has made you so angry – this is *exactly* what society had been doing to these kids, for centuries! Still want to hunt them all with dogs?

  16. People who make money from gender dysphoria, go looking for it, find it everywhere. Who could have guessed?

  17. I too noted that it seems like most of the case we hear of are boys changing to girls, often with a dominant mother or in one recent case two lesbian mothers.

    Just another front on the battle to destroy masculinity.

  18. Solid Steve 2: Squirrels of The Patriots

    Magnusw – Yarp.

    It’s a useful generalisation to remember that single mothers are bad mothers, which is why successful societies penalise single motherhood.

    And a pair of lezzers should never have unsupervised access to a vulnerable boy, because insanity abounds in the feminine sideburns community. If they were all there, they wouldn’t deliberately dress up like The Proclaimers.

  19. “I too noted that it seems like most of the case we hear of are boys changing to girls, often with a dominant mother or in one recent case two lesbian mothers.”

    A lot of cases of transgender kids committing suicide involve a dominant father who imposed their own 1970s “macho” standards on their children: “pressed [him] into a gender identification that had far more to do with his [father]’s needs and little, if anything, to do with his own”. Same deal.

  20. Solid Steve 2: Squirrels of The Patriots

    NiV – we must abandon child protection because it’s currently being abused by the left?

    Nah.

  21. “NiV – we must abandon child protection because it’s currently being abused by the left?”

    No. But you do need to set a consistent (and high) threshold before you override the parent’s decisions and intervene.

    If it’s OK to intervene when a lefty parents pressure a boy into acting like a girl when he’s not, then it’s equally OK to intervene when a right-wing parent pressures a transgender ‘girl’ into acting like a boy. It’s the same thing. The same standards apply.

    What you can’t do is apply different standards depending on whether the parents agree politically with you (or with the government of the day). Either you intervene in all cases, or you leave them all alone. You don’t get to pick and choose, unless you’re willing for the other side to be able to do the same when *they’re* in power.

  22. Solid Steve 2: Squirrels of The Patriots

    NiV – you have a crippling paraphilia which fogs your judgement on this.

    There’s no such thing as “transgender” little boys or girls. There are only little boys and little girls.

    Anybody who mutilates a child’s body with hormones or surgery, or who poisons a child’s fragile developing personality by encouraging them to think they’re the opposite sex needs to be delivered into the tender mercies of the Rt. Hon. Mr Ecks and his army of hench-eckses.

  23. NiV: I thought sexual liberation was about being able to act how you felt without being labelled stereotypically male or female. It seems the transwave are trying to segregate behaviour into male and female genders then forcibly reassign sexual apparatus to conform. The people getting to do the choosing are ideologically driven adults and the long term consequences are borne by children. Fascist. Child. Abuse.

  24. “There’s no such thing as “transgender” little boys or girls. There are only little boys and little girls.”

    That’s where you’re wrong. You’re entitled to your beliefs, but they’re not true, and the rest of society *know* they not true.

    Advocating punitive violence against those who dissent from social norms is liable to come back and bite you when you realise you’re in the minority.

    How many times do I have to say it? Anything you propose for them, they can (and will) do to you. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

    The spear in the Other’s heart is the spear in your own. There is no other wisdom, and no other hope for us than that we become wise.

  25. This belongs with circumcision and all other irreversible medically-unnecessary mutilations. You can have it when you’re 16 or older.

    Interfering with the sexuality and sexual orientation of a pre-pubescent child is wrong, whoever is doing it and for what motive.

  26. “NiV: I thought sexual liberation was about being able to act how you felt without being labelled stereotypically male or female.”

    Yes. But some people feel stereotypically male or female. They should have the freedom to choose.

    “It seems the transwave are trying to segregate behaviour into male and female genders then forcibly reassign sexual apparatus to conform.”

    There are about 20-30 identified features of brain anatomy that are sex-linked, and probably many more we can’t see. But these features generally only have a 90%-99% success rate during prenatal development, which means that *everyone* has a mixture of male-typical and female-typical brain features, and some have more than others, and some are more socially significant than others.

    So yes, there’s a spectrum, but also yes, there are people who are strongly ‘male’ or ‘female’ mentally, and this doesn’t always agree with the external genitals.

    Inconsistency between brain and body can in principle be fixed only by rewiring the brain (currently beyond medical capability) or restructuring the body (marginally possible). Doctors pick the only option open to them.

    ” The people getting to do the choosing are ideologically driven adults and the long term consequences are borne by children.”

    The choice *not* to act is also made by adults, and is also ideologically driven. What’s the difference?

  27. “This belongs with circumcision and all other irreversible medically-unnecessary mutilations.”

    What, like fixing facial disfigurements like “hare lip”?

  28. @MrBlack “I am unconvinced that a medical condition that did not exist 50 years ago”

    Oh, it existed.. Teenagers have been confused about gender and sexuality since time immemorial. What you do is basically help them through it, it’s perfectly normal ; to quote H2G2 “That’s perfectly normal paranoia, everyone has that”.

    Problem is virtue signallers / loony parents who shouldn’t be allowed to have a hamster now think they are trannies and try to drug them.

  29. NiV: I assume you are in favour of assisting anorexics starve themselves because they have an internal image of being too fat. In both cases of eating disorcer and transexualism unhappiness is projected onto the individual’s body morphology and efforts to subjugate it. John Hopkins University which pioneered the surgery for trannies no longer performs it because of the extremely high rate of suicide decades after surgery. Surely helping people deal with unhappiness rather than pandering to the fantasy that they would be happy if only they changed gender is the compassionate approach?

  30. Solid Steve 2: Squirrels of The Patriots

    I agree with Biggie on this.

    I’d always urge anyone afflicted by gender confusion *not* to go down the transsexualist path, because it’s a sad, lonely road with a horrible destination. As Danielle Bunten Berry, formerly Daniel Berry, put it:

    Don’t do it! That’s my advice. This is the most awful, most expensive, most painful, most disruptive thing you could ever do. Don’t do it unless there is no other alternative. You may think your life is tough but unless it’s a choice between suicide and a sex-change it will only get worse.

    But at the end of the day, if adults are determined to become eunuchs or whatever, there’s little we can do to stop them and perhaps we shouldn’t stop them.

    Children aren’t capable of making important life decisions though.

  31. “Anybody who mutilates a child’s body with hormones or surgery, or who poisons a child’s fragile developing personality by encouraging them to think they’re the opposite sex needs to be delivered into the tender mercies of the Rt. Hon. Mr Ecks and his army of hench-eckses.”

    They should be in jail.

  32. That’s where you’re wrong. You’re entitled to your beliefs, but they’re not true, and the rest of society *know* they not true.

    Really? Personally I’m with Solid Steve.
    I am curious though, why do we lop bits off or poison “transgender” children (who say they think their body shape doesn’t match what they want) but do our best to treat anorexic and bulimic children (who think their body shape doesn’t match what they want).
    Maybe we should be fair and start giving liposuction to the anorexic/bulimic crowd…
    Or a better idea, start treating the “transgender” crowd like the mentally ill people they are.

  33. @LJH ; @NIV is a classic Trafia propagandist, They are mental. That’s the reason for the high suicide rate. Mental people do mental things.

    They are trying to jump on the Gay / Harelip (seriously ?) bandwagon to get political clout and prop up their own mad ideas.

  34. “This belongs with circumcision and all other irreversible medically-unnecessary mutilations.”

    What, like fixing facial disfigurements like “hare lip”?

    Prick. Or cunt, should you prefer.

  35. “I assume you are in favour of assisting anorexics starve themselves because they have an internal image of being too fat.”

    There’s a difference between dysphoria and dysmorphia.

    But yes, from a liberty point of view, “informed consent” applies just as much to anorexia treatment. You can try to persuade an anorexic that that’s what they’ve got, but it’s highly questionable morally to force it on them. It all comes down to what you consider an “informed” choice.

    “Don’t do it unless there is no other alternative. You may think your life is tough but unless it’s a choice between suicide and a sex-change it will only get worse.”

    I agree with that. But what to do if it is?

    “Children aren’t capable of making important life decisions though.”

    Some are. Some aren’t. Same goes for adults.

    Like many things, it’s a spectrum.

    “Really?”

    Yes. Really.

    “I am curious though, why do we lop bits off or poison “transgender” children (who say they think their body shape doesn’t match what they want) but do our best to treat anorexic and bulimic children (who think their body shape doesn’t match what they want).”

    To put it simply, it’s because counseling works on anorexic people, but doesn’t work on transgender. You don’t use treatments that don’t work.

    Technically, dysmorphia is a delusion about the true state of affairs (they feel fat when they’re actually thin), while dysphoria is not (they think they have a brain of one gender in a body of the other). Dysphorics are under no illusions about the true state of their body.

    “They are mental. That’s the reason for the high suicide rate.”

    That question has been studied in depth, and it’s been shown that the high suicide rate is due to the way society, and their family and friends treat them.

    If you take a normal boy and raise him as a girl, force him into a role he finds unnatural, he will feel extreme distress to the point of attempting suicide. This is not a surprise.

    It’s the same as with the homosexuals. In years past they would often commit suicide on being discovered, because they knew how society would treat them. (Ask Alan Turing. Oh hang on, you can’t. You already killed him.) Today? Not so much.

  36. abacab,
    “Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie’s 11 year old daughter ” who was named Shiloh. What are the odds that the kids at school called her Piloh Shitt? No wonder she’d rather be called John.

    More seriously, I suspect this is a case of a jealous mother wanting to get rid of the competition. Shiloh was obviously going to be a very pretty girl.

  37. Philip Scott Thomas

    Steve –

    And a pair of lezzers should never have unsupervised access to a vulnerable boy, because insanity abounds in the feminine sideburns community.

    Like that bloody dyke Rachel Fee?

    She was a mother. She had one job in the world: to nurture and protect her little lad, Liam. And what does she do instead? She locks him in a cage, ties him to a chair for hours at a time, and in the end she punches him in the chest so hard his heart explodes. And then, to top it all off, she tells the police that a bunch of big boys did it and ran away.

    Christ, if I had the first clue how to do it (and the available funds), I’d arrange for the bitch to meet with an ‘unfortunate incident’ in prison.

  38. @Paul: I know NiV is a propagandist unfamiliar with objectivity or truth testing. The memes of his ilk like those of the climate alarmists, the socialists and communists, the sjwers et al need continual challenge as they seek to embed and normalise themselves within our culture. I have to remind my children that it is not “unkind” to interrogate delusions but rather essential for survival.

  39. “I know NiV is a propagandist unfamiliar with objectivity or truth testing.”

    OK. Show me your evidence. Got any?

  40. Bloke in North Dorset

    “But yes, from a liberty point of view, “informed consent” applies just as much to anorexia treatment. You can try to persuade an anorexic that that’s what they’ve got, but it’s highly questionable morally to force it on them. It all comes down to what you consider an “informed” choice.”

    A very good friend’s girlfriend came to stay with us a few years ago. She’s a trained counsellor in Los Angeles, not the dippy sort but lots of qualms, and a very interesting person to talk to.

    She reckoned that anorexics were the worst to counsel because they wouldn’t accept they had a problem. She watched a few starve to death.

  41. Okay NiV: in what way is a male to female transexual any more than an approximate simulacrum of a woman? He retains an advantage of physical strength over real women, he is invulnerable to the problems of contraception or menstruation, his adolescence and emergence into sexual activity has been entirely different as is his assimilation into any female groups, his adult relationship with heterosexual men involves either deception or exploitation.

  42. NiV: trannies are trying to redefine what female is assisted by those who stand to benefit financially, the very definition of corruption.

  43. “NiV: trannies are trying to redefine what female is assisted by those who stand to benefit financially, the very definition of corruption.”

    That’s the fallacy of “Appeal to motive“.

    Again, let’s see your *evidence*.

  44. NiV
    October 8, 2017 at 1:26 pm

    “Children aren’t capable of making important life decisions though.”

    Some are. Some aren’t. Same goes for adults.

    In this country children under the age of 16 aren’t considered competent to consent to having sex. On that basis I’d contend that if they aren’t old enough to fuck they’re not old enough to have their fucking bits chopped off!

  45. “In this country children under the age of 16 aren’t considered competent to consent to having sex.”

    That hasn’t always been the case. In Shakespeare’s ‘Romeo and Juliet’, widely regarded as a classic romance, Juliet was aged 13. So far as I know, nobody has yet banned Shakespeare for promoting paedophilia. The biological age for sexual activity to start is, of course, puberty – modern society is more complicated and has additional consequences that evolution didn’t take into account.

    The problem is that the real test of whether someone is competent to make a decision and informed about the consequences is complicated, and it’s immensely difficult to encode that into law. So they set a more simple criterion of age that is more easily tested, as a proxy for the more difficult one. It’s meant to cover most cases – most people are sufficiently mature by 16 to at least understand the issues. Most people understand earlier, a few only later. It’s a compromise.

    The same thing applies to the decision about gender. For most transgender kids, I’d say puberty blockers to prevent the irreversible changes of puberty until 16 were the right answer. But there are some more extreme cases where the right answer is clear far earlier, and it only prolongs their distress to delay. But that’s by no means a trivial policy decision, and if society decided that the rule ought to be puberty blockers until 16, I’d not have such a big problem with that. Society hasn’t made that decision, though.

  46. Maritime Barbarian

    First I heard about sex-change surgery was about 50 years ago. A TV encounter between a woman fiercely against such surgery, and a surgeon who did the operations.
    He was eloquent about the need for the treatment. His patients were utterly miserable and prone to loneliness and suicide. He also had to treat men who were so desperate that they had taken a knife to their own genitals.
    So it’s a definite mental disorder that can only be addressed by surgery and hormone therapy.
    It is NOT a lifestyle choice or a fashionable option.

  47. @NiV “For most transgender kids, I’d say puberty blockers to prevent the irreversible changes of puberty until 16 were the right answer”

    I’d say you were verging on the criminally insane. You want to abuse children’s bodies to prop up your fatuous self beliefs.

    @NiV “But there are some more extreme cases where the right answer is clear far earlier, and it only prolongs their distress to delay.”

    Nope, I was much too generous.

    I see he/she/it is not too bothered by paedophilia either.

  48. @LJH they’re after political power and clout, not actual $$$ (except for $$$ for Tranny mafia aka Trafia groups obviously).

    They’re trying to be put on the same level as Gays (hence all the stuff about Turing) ; actually they’re on the same level as people who think they’re Julius Caesar or something. Except those mad people are usually harmless ; they aren’t forcing other people to believe their drivel.

  49. “I’d say you were verging on the criminally insane. You want to abuse children’s bodies to prop up your fatuous self beliefs.”

    And your evidence that my beliefs are false is…?

    “They’re trying to be put on the same level as Gays (hence all the stuff about Turing)”

    There are multiple sex-linked brain modules, which can occur swapped independently. I think it’s pretty obvious that homosexuals have the opposite gender’s module for sexual attraction. Transgenderism is the same phenomenon, but applied to different sex-linked personality-determining brain modules.

    People used to say that homosexuality was a mental illness, and used electric shock torture to try to “cure” it.

    When they start using electric shock torture and drugs to try to cure ‘homophobes’, like your lot did, you’ll have a right to complain about it.

  50. Excavator Man:And Witchie, isn’t the woman just an old-fashioned lesbian in the mould of George Eliot and others?

    One might subconsciously associate a novel with the title The Mill on the Floss with dykes but that doesn’t make the author a lezzer.

    Incidentally, NiV is manifestly ill and bonkers and more than a little parti pris in this discussion.

    My guess is that he is no longer as he was when he came off the production line. There’s nothing to be gained on either side from engaging with him.

  51. NiV

    All I can say, in the blizzard of your confirmation bias, is, thank God you don’t have any children.

  52. “Incidentally, NiV is manifestly ill and bonkers and more than a little parti pris in this discussion.”

    Evidence…?

    “All I can say, in the blizzard of your confirmation bias, is, thank God you don’t have any children.”

    Evidence…?

  53. NiV: Evidence…?

    Your contributions to this thread. Does NiV stand for New Improved Version?

  54. “Your contributions to this thread.”

    I’ve provided evidence and backup for my assertions. Have any of you? Show me.

    “Does NiV stand for New Improved Version?”

    Nullius in Verba. The long version was a bit wordy, so other people elsewhere started abbreviating it and I ended up adopting it.

  55. “All I can say, in the blizzard of your confirmation bias, is, thank God you don’t have any children.”

    Evidence…?

    …. pretty much everything you post.

  56. “…. pretty much everything you post.”

    Expand, please.

    Do you mean “You say things I disagree with, and so they must be wrong”, perhaps? Is that supposed to be an argument?

    Why? What’s your evidence that I’m wrong about anything I’ve said?

  57. Bloke in Costa Rica

    How is this different from vegans starving their children to death, something of which the law has traditionally taken a dim view?

  58. “How is this different from vegans starving their children to death, something of which the law has traditionally taken a dim view?”

    For part of the answer, see discussion above, starting with: “No. But you do need to set a consistent (and high) threshold before you override the parent’s decisions and intervene. […]”

    For the other part, I’d point out that forcing a child to conform to a gender other than the one their brain is wired for is the choice that tends to result in misery, depression, and suicide attempts, and therefore it’s the people forcing their transgender kids to act ‘straight’ who are most akin to vegan parents starving their kids to death. Acceptance and tolerance for transgender behaviour reduces suicidal impulses. Is it your argument, therefore, that we should take a similarly dim view of such ‘traditional’ parenting?

  59. NiV

    Your requests for evidence: are we allowed to offer the same standard of evidence as you proffer? Non-replicable, parti pris and conclusion led?

    You like to think you’re the disinterested and ‘evidence’led commentator here, but all you say and offer is agenda driven and tendentious commentary.

    No doubt your response will be to ask for ‘evidence’.

  60. “Your requests for evidence: are we allowed to offer the same standard of evidence as you proffer?”

    It would be better than nothing at all, which is all I’ve got so far.

    “You like to think you’re the disinterested and ‘evidence’led commentator here, but all you say and offer is agenda driven and tendentious commentary.”

    Possibly so. Have you considered the possibility that all anybody else here has offered is the same?

    That’s why I keep asking for evidence. I might conceivably be persuaded to modify my view by some new/interesting/not-easily-refuted evidence. I’m definitely not going to be persuaded by “agenda driven and tendentious commentary” backed up by nothing at all. All anyone else has offered so far is empty assertions and logical fallacies. (And a few insults.) I must confess I’m not surprised, but I am slightly disappointed.

  61. My sister (now in her late 20s), has very strong views on this.
    Essentially, she was a tomboy of the highest order as a small child, much happier playing with weapons and wearing trousers than dressing femininely or having dolls.
    She reckons that if she was told she could really be a boy, any time up to the age of 14 or so, she would have gone for it. She’s not trans, is happily heterosexually female (although not typically feminine in all respects – she has done most of the work for a private pilots license, and was training to join the T. A.), and thinks that if she’d “transitioned” as a say a 10 yearold, her life would have been a total disaster, instead of being a tomboy who developed into a perfectly normal female as a teenager.
    Naturally, with this sort of background, she’s dead against the idea of gender reassignment of any form for children, especially prepubescent ones.

  62. @maritime Barbarian

    “So it’s a definite mental disorder that can only be addressed by surgery and hormone therapy.”

    So your solution to a mental problem is to change the physical world. Are we to adapt the physical world around the needs of all the mentally ill? Or should we, you know, treat their mental disorder and leave the world alone?

  63. @theProle

    And the big kick of natural hormones in puberty to solve the “problem” seems to be what some people are pushing to prevent.

  64. @theProle this is extremely common (in both genders). Some people who were like your sister are extremely feminine in later life. Some carry on being a bit “tomboy”ish. It doesn’t matter. There are feminine male equivalents.

    What it needs is tolerance, patience, acceptance, and being reassured that there’s nothing wrong with being different.

    Oddly this is what the Tranny thugs demand as well. What they actually want is bodies to build a group.

    They like to claim (for example) that there are many more non XX XY people than is claimed.

    This is actually true. What they don’t tell you is virtually all of these are XXX or XYY and these people are still very obviously female/male respectively. Males more so (anyone remember the XYY Man ?).

    Virtually none of them are in the “not clear” box,

  65. @ NiV
    Actually, there *are* just little boys and little girls.
    Some boys may like some games that girls play and some girls may like games that boys play: that does not make them transgender – maybe you have never heard the word “tomboy”?
    Many years ago my school curriculum included teaching me to sew and knit – very “girlie” occupations – and my little sister played football with me and the closest of our friends; my mother taught me cook – “girlie” was one of the few insults never thrown at me.
    You can NOT predict the post-puberty sexual preferences of a small child and anyone who pretends that she/he can is assuming divine status.

  66. Bear with me on this one…

    About a year or so ago I happened to have far too much time on my hands during a typical working day. I ended up putting the telly on and watching an episode of Jeremy Kyle…. I know, I know. Don’t judge me.

    One of the ‘guests’ was a distinctive chap who had had his ears surgically removed and had his whole face and head tattooed in bright blues, reds, yellows and greens. He went on, by way of explanation, to declare that he wished to identify as a parrot and was trying to find a plastic surgeon who would fit him with a prosthetic beak.

    Now, he identified as a parrot despite clearly being born human. The net result of his ‘quack*’ surgery will not change anything other than his appearance. At best, he is a facsimile of a parrot – nothing more.

    Three things struck me whilst watching him. Firstly, that he was fucking insane. Secondly, that I hoped that the NHS wasn’t picking up the bill*. And finally, that he is to a bird what a bloke with their cock* lopped off is to a woman.

    Either he really is a parrot or the tranny is just a mutilated geezer.

    *Do you like what I did there!

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