Well, you see Owen?

How dare you, Kevin Spacey. One of the age-old tropes deployed against gay and bisexual men is that they pose a threat to children, that they are synonymous with paedophiles and pederasts. This vicious lie has long proved useful in justifying the systematic persecution of gay and bisexual men.

Some are indeed pederasts. Just as some who identify as heterosexual chase kiddies. As some women do. To borrow a word, there’s some intersectionality going on here.

We, today and quite rightly, say that consenting adults are consenting adults and that’s that. And that not consent and not adults aren’t.

34 thoughts on “Well, you see Owen?”

  1. Jones is a lying leftist prick. He can no more not lie in the cause of socialist evil than he likely could change his imprinted habits and he would be no more willing to try. Or likely successful if he did.

    It is unlikely that a full on sexual imprint can be fully reversed.

    But his love of socialism is a deliberate choice to support, propagate and do evil. And it is there that he needs to search his conscience. But it is equally likely that full on support of evil shows a character that will never change and thus…..

  2. I am waiting for Owen Jones being outed for propositioning an underage ephebe: the schadenfreude will register on seismographs.

  3. “the systematic persecution of gay and bisexual men”

    Owen seems to be the sort of chap who in the privacy of his own bedroom would enjoy being persecuted.

  4. “the systematic persecution of gay and bisexual men”

    In Owen Jones’s case, not nearly systematic enough.

  5. And of course, Owen’s latest mind vomit is not open for discussion on The guardian, and nor is Polly’s “raise taxes” piss of consciousness in which she mentions ‘tax specialist’ Richard Murphy (and not mentioning Murphy because he’s said anything but because he’s mentioned a report by someone else).

    In the absence of my chance to say so on The Guardian’s pages, I’ll say it here.

    The word ‘twunt’ was coined with those two in mind.

  6. Well Spacey could hardly come out and say “I might have tried to bum a member of the same sex but I’m not gay”, could he?

  7. Not paedo

    Paedo is children, not 14 year old adolescents.

    Paedo is truly disgusting and IMHO very sick and dangerous.

    This is a little less so and at 14 many of us are developed and up for what we like, or maybe we get into trouble without realising it and, like this guy, got out in time without undue pressure.

    This claim is really the pits. At 15 I was working floor cleaning in Boots after school. A couple of the cleaners (ladies, I hasten to add) bundled me into a cupboard to cop a feel and suggest some rather rude actions. Yes I was shocked and no I didn’t take it as a compliment. Can I get famous? Can I get some money?

    How the hell did we ever win a war, build a country, discover penicillin…..?

    Read the other day that a survey at Harvard clarified that if a a guy re-asks you out after you have said no once, it is sexual assault.

    I’m buying cat breeder futures!

  8. @bilbaoboy

    I was slightly older – 19. The older ladies in the packing department patted me on the bum and made lewd suggestions. Can I claim compo? It was only thirty odd years ago, after all…

  9. There I was, coming slowly around to the idea that homosexuals do not necessarily interfere with children when Kevin Spacey, a man vaguely on the periphery of my consciousness, intrudes to reinforce my original prejudice.

    This probably means that I am stupid enough to be a leave voter. Spacey is responsible for Brexit.

  10. As a simple matter of logic I am quite prepared to believe that homosexuals are no more likely to interfere with children than heterosexuals. But on this topic I see only hysteria and bombast, never evidence. So I incline to guess that it just ain’t so.

  11. Owen’s in the outrage business and he has a seriously creative talent for it.
    “What’s there to get outraged about in this story? Gays propositioning, foisting themselves on young boys? No scratch that. Not my style.”, thinks Owen.

    What we need to be outraged with Kevin Spacey about is for being a crypto-Thatcherite.

  12. “One of the age-old tropes deployed against gay and bisexual men is that they pose a threat to children, that they are synonymous with paedophiles and pederasts. This vicious lie has long proved useful in justifying the systematic persecution of gay and bisexual men.”

    Actually you can remove ‘gay and bisexual’ from this statement. Which is why there are almost no male primary school teachers and a dwindling number of male secondary school teachers.

    And now the actions of a few power-mad pervs are being used to defame all men.

  13. Slightly off topic the Telegraph has (behind the paywall) run an article about a “dirty dossier” of 40 Tory MPs and their filthy habits.

    In the bit of the story I can read, it is admitted that only 25 of those named are accused of inappropriate behaviour. So that’s 15 MPs being defamed right away.

    I also can’t see if there is any explanation why the list only includes Tory MPs, other than the obvious one* ie that this is a list drawn up by Labour schemers in an attempt to bring down the government.

    *or because Them Tories Are Evil, which is what many will believe

  14. Oh dear. Shouldn’t Owen and his fellow travellers have thought of all this before demanding special treatment for being gay, e.g. by forcing bakers to make cakes for them? Now it’s being wheeled out as a “get-out-of-jail” card by dodgy celebrities, and he’s complaining. Bless.

  15. Solid Steve 2: Squirrels of The Patriots

    To borrow a word, there’s some intersectionality going on here.

    Yarp.

    Note Owen’s straw-duckie:

    One of the age-old tropes deployed against gay and bisexual men is that they pose a threat to children, that they are synonymous with paedophiles and pederasts.

    This is designed to shame you for the crime of noticing, by implying you hate and fear all gays.

    But, nah. Most adults are well aware that not all gays are predatory boy-buggerers who wear Paisley pattern silk scarves and Panama hats and hide in bushes, waiting to spring on unsuspecting male flesh and ply them with Oscar Wilde.

    But quite a lot of them are. A large minority, certainly.

    It’s not Mr Humphries we’re concerned about, it’s the Uncle Ernie types. Problem is, it’s not always that easy to tell the difference in real life, which is why responsible parents are wary of any man who seems to take a keen interest in kids. And why normal people don’t want their kids getting into the gay lifestyle thing.

  16. I would imagine gay men are less likely to abuse children than heterosexual men for the simple reason that they have less access to them. Motive is one thing; opportunity another.

    Incidentally, if Owen is right and it is a ‘viscious lie’ that gay and bisexual men abuse children, then the whole Catholic priest abusing kids thing becomes a bit of a mystery. Unless they were all heterosexual priests. I expect that was it.

  17. Personally I sympathise with Owen on this one. The “gay men are disproportionately paedos” trope has done a lot of harm to gay people and Spacey’s distraction-by-revelation technique really doesn’t help the conflation. It’s worth pointing out that this trope isn’t entirely externally imposed – some of the very earliest “gay rights activists” (anachronistic for the 19th century but not sure of a better term) proposed an identity or lifestyle code modeled on ancient Greek pederasty – but it isn’t representative of how the vast majority of gay people live today, just as it isn’t for the vast majority of straight people, and there doesn’t seem to be evidence of disproportionate child abuse among gay people. The link in people’s heads hasn’t gone away yet though, and the Space-out will surely postpone the date.

  18. MC–It seems likely –with these 40 accusations in Westminster that I was wrong about the sexual hype/nonsense being prevented from getting to the heart of politics.

    While the “nasty men” narrative is no longer needed to put fem-scum like May/Rudd etc INTO top jobs–it might be just what the bitches think they need to KEEP their top jobs.

    Unless the Tories are completely braindead they must be mounting tremendous efforts behind the scenes to get rid of the Fish Faced Cow and her gang. What better counterattack–since she is proven useless and dangerous (to her own side) and has no substance to keep her in place–than a shrill sqwark of “you filthy beasts”. While the males are busy ducking and diving the vile bitch moves to ensure Corbyn by consolidating herself in place. Cos while she and her girlie crew ( inc Hammond) may be treasonous, arrogant, useless, authoritarian remainiac shite at least they aren’t “sex offenders”.

    Please God find someone to say May drunkenly grabbed his groin in 1978 or something.

    All our lives may depend on it.

  19. Having read up on MatthewL’s link, it seems the the primary finding is when you discount offenses committed by men against boys, because most of the men who commit such acts apparently aren’t homosexual, the offending rate of homosexual men is very low.

    In other news, if we discount car thieves, (because obviously they aren’t proper thieves,) almost no car theft is committed by thieves…

  20. So Much For Subtlety

    Matthew L – “Comprehensive evidence here:”

    Evidence? That is massively dishonest. It does list all the evidence, or at least articles that show there is a link, but only to try to dismiss them. It attempts to claim that men who have sex with men, or in this case boys, are not really homosexual. Brilliant piece of work there. But we can read between the lines a little:

    Using the fixated-regressed distinction, Groth and Birnbaum (1978) studied 175 adult males who were convicted in Massachusetts of sexual assault against a child. None of the men had an exclusively homosexual adult sexual orientation. 83 (47%) were classified as “fixated;” 70 others (40%) were classified as regressed adult heterosexuals; the remaining 22 (13%) were classified as regressed adult bisexuals.

    So 40% of these offenders were heterosexuals. In other words, given heterosexuals are something like 97% of the population, heterosexuals are under-represented in the offender lists. 13% are bisexuals. Which means they are massively over-represented among offenders. And 43%, the largest group, are neither heterosexual or bisexual. Now if only there was a word for people who were not interested in sex with women on a full or part-time basis.

    MyBurningEars – “Personally I sympathise with Owen on this one. The “gay men are disproportionately paedos” trope has done a lot of harm to gay people”

    The way for Gays to stop confusing people with the link to paedophilia is to stop defending paedophiles. Gays actually make no distinction except when Straight people criticise them. Did Pasolini ever have sex with an adult male? He was killed by a twink and fired as a school teacher for molesting his students, so the evidence seems to be he did not. Still a Gay hero. As Stacey McCain has pointed out, the feminist nut case Sheila Jefferies has over 20 pages of Gay leaders defending man-on-boy sex. One of which was, of course, Peter Tatchell.

    There is no clear distinction between being Gay and being a Gay person who has sex with boys. Except that one is illegal and presumably a lot of people don’t do it for that reason.

  21. Person A manifests themselves, in their day-to-day life and adult relationships, as straight.

    Person B manifests themselves, in their day-to-day life and adult relationships, as gay.

    The study suggests that the widespread belief that person B is more of a threat to children (so should be viewed with suspicion if they are a teacher or parent or carer) is unevidenced and prejudicial. It results in the kind of discrimination and innuendo that Owen, and other gay men, have every right to complain about.

    It also suggests people may be underestimating the risk posed by person A to children of the same sex, even though they seem to be heterosexual on the (public) face of it.

    The question of whether a molester of type A is “really” heterosexual or gay or what seems rather nuanced to me – when they’re perpetrating child abuse there’s a different side of them being manifested, so which is the “real” one? – but also irrelevant to Owen’s complaint, that person B is being discriminated against and that proportionately people of types A and B may be equally likely to be abusers. It wouldn’t suit Owen’s narrative for him to write “the proportion of child sexual abuse that is male-on-male is disproportionate to the proportion of adult relationships that are male-with-male”, but even if that were true it doesn’t particularly undermine his point, nor make discrimination against outwardly gay men any more palatable or justified.

  22. So Much For Subtlety

    MyBurningEars – “but even if that were true it doesn’t particularly undermine his point, nor make discrimination against outwardly gay men any more palatable or justified.”

    I disagree. We can define many things in many ways. If we adopt the commonsense definition of a homosexual as someone who likes having sex with other men, then a vastly disproportionate share of sexual abuse is homosexual. If it makes you feel better we can also discriminate against those who feel no obvious interest in adult women. Owen doesn’t want to call those people homosexuals and I am willing to play along.

    After all heterosexual men are assumed to be predators all the time – and are discriminated against. To the point that even the Teachers’ Unions are complaining about the reluctance of men to become teachers.

    All of which would be much easier if it was not for people on Owen’s side of the camp, so to speak, defending sex with children. When people like Tatchell call for the age of consent to be dropped to 12 and admit to having had sex with adult men while a child, one starts to think that perhaps Owen is being dishonest. After all there are hundreds of mainstream Gays that have defended man-on-boy love. The number of heterosexual men calling for the right to sleep with primary school girls is a hell of a lot lower.

  23. So let me understand this:

    Male Pedo A has no history whatsoever of having sexual relations with anyone over the age of consent. When he buggers a 14yo boy (with consent), we conclude this is not evidence he is homosexual, and his actions are NOT representative of homosexual men in general.

    Male Pedo B on the other hand also has no history of any sexual relations with anyone over the age of consent, but has consensual sex with a 14 yo girl. However in this case we conclude he is heterosexual, and his actions are representative of ALL heterosexual males, ie adult heterosexual men represent a danger to young girls.

    Does that about sum it up?

  24. Interesting; according to the Office for National Statistics crime data:

    – of rapes of an over-16, only 6% of victims are male;
    – of rapes of someone 13-16, only 12% of victims are male;
    – of rapes of someone under 13, 32% of victims are male

    – of sexual assaults on people over 13 (the split between 13-16 and over-16 isn’t given), only 12% of the victims are male.
    – of sexual assaults on people under 13, 30% of the victims are male.

    (www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/datasets/crimeinenglandandwalesappendixtables)

    Not sure what that’s telling us. But there’s definitely a big upswing in the proportion of male victims as the age of the victim drops.

  25. Thanks, Matthew. Said me “as a simple matter of logic I am quite prepared to believe that homosexuals are no more likely to interfere with children than heterosexuals. But on this topic I have so far seen only hysteria and bombast, never evidence.”

    Now you have given me a link to what you assert is “comprehensive evidence”. But it’s hopelessly feeble: there’s nothing there that could persuade me either way. It might, however, persuade me that people have been careful not to look critically at the phenomenon. From which I infer that there may be something to the popular stereotype, alas.

  26. Not sure what that’s telling us

    That puberty results in boys getting taller, stronger and more aggressive and so more likely to be able to resist a predator? Just musing.

  27. Not sure what that’s telling us

    Those people with a preference for children who have not yet developed secondary sexual characteristics are by definition less choosy about gender ?

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