Hmm, well, he is an expert, isn’t he?

Many people who change their gender end up with “horrendous” results and are left feeling “badly damaged”, Lord Robert Winston has warned.

The scientist and TV presenter warned that the implications of gender reassignment surgery are not properly understood, with many operations ending in complications and people’s fertility left permanently damaged.

Speaking on the Today Programme on BBC Radio 4, he said that “results are horrendous in such a big proportion of cases”.

He said 40 per cent of people who undergo vaginal reconstruction surgery experience complications as a result, and many need further surgery, and 23 per cent of people who have their breasts removed “feel uncomfortable with what they’ve done”.

He added: “What I’ve been seeing in a fertility clinic are the long-term results of often very unhappy people who now feel quite badly damaged.

“One has to consider when you’re doing any kind of medicine where you’re trying to do good not harm, and looking at the long-term effects of what you might be doing, and for me that is really a very important warning sign.”

He added that the long-term effects of taking hormones “are likely to affect reproductive function”.

Apologies but that last line does make me giggle.

Ya think?

29 thoughts on “Hmm, well, he is an expert, isn’t he?”

  1. I really think that once you have engaged in gender charades, you really should not be attending a fertility clinic. As for complication rates, if those blokes thought they were getting a real vagina, they were hopelessly misled by their surgeons. I note “hairy urethra syndrome” remains unmentioned. It occurs in women who have had penile simulacra constructed from loose skin on the forearm.

  2. Are we still so stuck in the stone ages that the only way to achieve your heart’s desire is to change the body ? Ever thought of changing that other side of the human, namely the mind ?

    When even such a notable figure as Lord Winston makes the above points, any who wish to pursue such a course of action should be discouraged.

    Don’t know what the current state of play is, but I hope that the NHS does not fund any part of this.

  3. “One has to consider when you’re doing any kind of medicine where you’re trying to do good not harm”

    Medicine? Gender reassignment surgery as medicine for gender dysphoria is like a bullet to the head as medicine for severe depression.

  4. Are we still so stuck in the stone ages that the only way to achieve your heart’s desire is to change the body ? Ever thought of changing that other side of the human, namely the mind ?

    Alan Douglas, I think that’s called growing up. Something which an increasing number of people seem incapable of doing.

  5. One needs to draw a distinction between ‘top’ and ‘bottom’ surgery, the former being relatively uncomplicated and rather cheaper than the latter, both MTF and FTM. There is also the issue of hormones/meds, and facial (etc, but not genital) surgery, so this is a complicated business.

    The world population is large enough to sustain a quite large population of people doing bizarre body modifications without humanity as a whole being affected – unless somehow that bizarreness becomes ‘normal’.

    Wouldn’t life be easier if we all believed in Hindu(?) reincarnation, because then sooner or later a TG would come out the other way, notwithstanding the spells spent as a cockroach or whatever in between.

  6. Solid Steve 2: Squirrels of The Patriots

    I reckon there’s soon gonna be a cottage industry in ambulance-chasing lawsuits over this, like with PPI

    Have you suffered from hairy urethra syndrome and it wasn’t your fault? You might be owed ££££ in compensation!!!!?! Turn your plastic vagina into a gold mine-a! Where there’s a gash, there’s cash!

  7. “Professor Butler said it was still “incredibly rare” and that one child in 20,000 experienced doubts about their gender identity. ”

    If this is true, is it unreasonable to only want to hear about it about the same amount of times i hear about other 1 in 20,000 childhood issues?

  8. “that last line does make me giggle”: whereas it makes me fume. I loath it when people say “affect” without telling me in which way this affects that. If the lazy lout means “impair” he should fucking say “impair”.

    And arseholes who say “negatively impact” should fucking say “impair” too, or “reduce”, or “decrease”, or some other unvile expression.

  9. He added that the long-term effects of taking hormones “are likely to affect reproductive function”.

    “I loath it when people say “affect” without telling me in which way this affects that.”

    You need telling?

  10. Julia M: at some point the fake penis has to be moved to the genital area. It remains attached to the arm until its new blood supply is viable. No one is supple enough for bingo wings.

  11. John Square, Ritchie suffers from generalised confusion not gender confusion. An anorectal specialist may shine some medical light on his outpourings.

  12. “You need telling?” It’s his fucking job to tell me.

    You aren’t really so stupid as to think that “the long-term effects of taking hormones” are all one way, are you?

  13. “Hmm, well, he is an expert, isn’t he?”

    Clearly not.

    “Ever thought of changing that other side of the human, namely the mind?”

    That level of brain surgery is not yet possible.

    “When even such a notable figure as Lord Winston makes the above points, any who wish to pursue such a course of action should be discouraged.”

    Winston’s wrong.

    “Don’t know what the current state of play is, but I hope that the NHS does not fund any part of this.”

    They do.

    “Medicine? Gender reassignment surgery as medicine for gender dysphoria is like a bullet to the head as medicine for severe depression.”

    It’s like surgery to fix facial disfigurement.

    “If this is true, is it unreasonable to only want to hear about it about the same amount of times i hear about other 1 in 20,000 childhood issues?”

    It isn’t true.

  14. “Professor Butler said it was still “incredibly rare” and that one child in 20,000 experienced doubts about their gender identity.”

    The kids are probably okay. It’s their fvcking parents that have a problem.

  15. “Professor Butler said it was still “incredibly rare” and that one child in 20,000 experienced doubts about their gender identity.”

    He’s talking crap.

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1054139X13007532

    “It’s their fvcking parents that have a problem.”

    It’s the fucking gender police who stomp around in their gay totalitarian jackboots and peaked caps telling other people what they’re allowed to do, where they’re allowed to go, what they’re allowed to wear, how they’re allowed to live their lives that are the fucking problem. The kids are fine. The parents are fine. The gender bigots need to be shot, forthwith.

    If anyone tells you not to smoke, you’ll tell them to fuck off. If anyone tells you not to drink, you’ll tell them to fuck off. If anyone tells you not to eat cheap burgers or sugary drinks, you’ll tell them to fuck off. Why is wearing a dress any different?

  16. “Why is wearing a dress any different”

    For children at any rate, we do tell them not to smoke or drink, on the grounds that they are not old enough to make responsible choices about the consequences of these actions.

    It’s not wearing a dress that’s an issue – it’s when people jump from that to 1)telling people that they really are whatever gender they want to be and 2) therefore they start giving them hormones and/or major surgery (both with massive longterm implications for things like their ability to have children).

    This is particularly the case with prepubescent children where in all probability the normal actions of hormones would sort things out and make them revert to normal gender roles, while putting puberty “on hold” or worse means that doesn’t happen.

  17. “For children at any rate, we do tell them not to smoke or drink, on the grounds that they are not old enough to make responsible choices about the consequences of these actions.”

    But that’s not who Winston’s talking about, is it? Or any of the people here agreeing with him?

    I’m talking about the people telling other adults not to smoke or drink, because they don’t approve. The people confiscating the chocolate out of other people’s kids’ lunchboxes, because it doesn’t conform to government guidelines…

    The parents of the kids in question do have to give informed consent – but you’re saying that society (meaning you) should get to override them if they make decisions on behalf of their own children you don’t agree with.

    “It’s not wearing a dress that’s an issue – it’s when people jump from that to 1)telling people that they really are whatever gender they want to be”

    The problem is when anybody tells anybody else how they’ve got to live their life.(“Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign.”) That means people telling kids they’re transgender when they’re not, but it also means telling kids they’re not transgender when they are, which parents (along with everyone else) have been doing for millennia. There is no difference of principle between the two. They’re both equally bad. They’re both equally damaging.

    “and 2) therefore they start giving them hormones and/or major surgery (both with massive longterm implications for things like their ability to have children).”

    Which is why the usual recommendation is to use puberty blockers (which are reversible) until they’re old enough. Bear in mind that allowing them to go through puberty *also* has irreversible, long term consequences which, for them, may be extremely damaging. The same principle applies – the decision to do nothing is still a decision.

    But again, it’s not prepubescent children that Winston and friends are talking about.

    “This is particularly the case with prepubescent children where in all probability the normal actions of hormones would sort things out and make them revert to normal gender roles, while putting puberty “on hold” or worse means that doesn’t happen.”

    That’s right. That’s exactly what the real experts say (not idiots talking outside their field of expertise like Winston).

    An important difference between gender dysphoric children and adolescents is in the proportion for whom dysphoria persists into adulthood. Gender dysphoria during childhood does not inevitably continue into adulthood.5 Rather, in follow-up studies of prepubertal children (mainly boys) who were referred to clinics for assessment of gender dysphoria, the dysphoria persisted into adulthood for only 6-23% of children (Cohen-Kettenis, 2001; Zucker & Bradley, 1995). Boys in these studies were more likely to identify as gay in adulthood than as transgender (Green, 1987; Money & Russo, 1979; Zucker & Bradley, 1995; Zuger, 1984). Newer studies, also including girls, showed a 12-27% persistence rate of gender dysphoria into adulthood (Drummond, Bradley, Peterson-Badali, & Zucker, 2008; Wallien & Cohen-Kettenis, 2008).

    In contrast, the persistence of gender dysphoria into adulthood appears to be much higher for adolescents. No formal prospective studies exist. However, in a follow-up study of 70 adolescents who were diagnosed with gender dysphoria and given puberty suppressing hormones, all continued with the actual sex reassignment, beginning with feminizing/masculinizing hormone therapy (de Vries, Steensma, Doreleijers, & Cohen-Kettenis, 2010).

    Which is why the criteria for giving those drugs includes number 2 below.

    In order for adolescents to receive puberty suppressing hormones, the following minimum criteria must be met:

    1. The adolescent has demonstrated a long-lasting and intense pattern of gender nonconformity or gender dysphoria (whether suppressed or expressed);

    2. Gender dysphoria emerged or worsened with the onset of puberty;

    3. Any co-existing psychological, medical, or social problems that could interfere with treatment (e.g., that may compromise treatment adherence) have been addressed, such that the adolescent’s situation and functioning are stable enough to start treatment;

    4. The adolescent has given informed consent and, particularly when the adolescent has not reached the age of medical consent, the parents or other caretakers or guardians have consented to the treatment and are involved in supporting the adolescent throughout the treatment process.

    That’s straight out of the WPATH7 guidelines. So, given that the medics have already acknowledged and addressed the issue you raise, does that allay your concerns at all?

  18. NiV: transitioners are never going to be more than a Heath Robinson version of the opposite sex; they may say they identify as something they are not but htf do they know what a real member of the opposite sex actually feels. It’s all pantomime and dressing up which is tolerable in an adult but a pretty poor option to indulge a child to follow.

  19. “NiV: transitioners are never going to be more than a Heath Robinson version of the opposite sex”

    Are you talking about the brain or the body?

    The brain develops along the female-typical pattern, the body develops as male-typical, and we don’t have the medical technology yet to fix it. We can do a reasonable enough approximation on the body for people to get by – we’re nowhere near being able to do brain surgery to rewire the entire brain.

    But it’s not about making them a perfect instance of a single consistent sex. It’s about giving them enough that they can lead a tolerable life, not ending in misery and suicide.

    “they may say they identify as something they are not but htf do they know what a real member of the opposite sex actually feels”

    How does *anyone* know their own mind and personality? Are you an introvert or an extrovert? Are you sporty, or arty, or a geek?

    If society was so fucking stupid as to say “People who are short-sighted and wear glasses are all maths-loving geeks”, and some kid wearing glasses said “No, I like sports, I hate maths”, would they be justified in asking how a short-sighted geek could possibly know how a normal-sighted sporty kid feels? After all, he’s worn glasses all his life. And society has never allowed him to openly play sports.

    Can you have a sporty mind in a geeky body? It’s the same question.

    Don’t mix up mind and body. No TG kid knows, or claims to know what it’s like to have a *body* of the other sex. What they claim is to have is the *mind* of the other sex, and they *do* know what that’s like because they actually do.

  20. NiV, I can only conclude that you yourself are cross-gender. Some days you come across as a bit of a twat and other days you are a bell-end.

  21. “NiV, I can only conclude that you yourself are cross-gender. Some days you come across as a bit of a twat and other days you are a bell-end.”

    Ah! The “Ad hominem abusive” argument!

    What I think you really mean is: “I still disagree with you, but can’t think of any actual logical argument to support my ignorant opinions, so I’m going to fling poo at you instead, and hope people will think that means I won.”

    Probably, some people will think you did.

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