Easy enough to do

A MARRIED couple from Shropshire were “groomed” into supplying parts for Iran’s nuclear programme, a court has heard.

Paul Attwater, 65, and Iris Attwater, 66, smuggled prohibited aircraft parts from their company Pairs Aviation to Alexander George, 76, in Malaysia who supplied Iranian aviation firms.

Concluding that the couple had been “very, very naive”, Judge Michael Grieve QC yesterday handed the couple suspended sentences after Mr Attwater insisted he had no idea the parts he was exporting had a military application.

What might have a military application – “dual use” items – can have a very wide definition. I know this very well indeed.

Way back when it was Iraq, not Iran, that was the concern. There’s a specific alloy that is used only in Soviet style nuclear plants. Western use a different alloy, each is only used in nuclear. We had a nice little business buying the Soviet stuff as scrap – usual destination was aluminium alloys for boy racer car wheels. All entirely legal and kosher.

However, if we’d sold the tubes, as tubes and so not as scrap, to people who then put them into the Iraqi nuclear program (can’t recall if there ever was one but at the time all thought that….) then that was a possible 20 year sentence.

To the point that there was a stash of such tubes in Cyprus which we made repeated attempts to buy as scrap, at the scrap price. Never got anywhere as it appears that this was, even if a real stash, a temptation being monitored, to put it lightly, by security types to see who would buy as tubes and try to ship to Iraq. I’ve seen at least one trial reported where people did try to buy as tubes and ship.

Have also dealt with radiation hardened chips for rockets and satellites. If they went into Soyuz to go to the space station then that’s fine. If they got diverted to military use then potential 20 years jug time again.

That is, exactly the same item can be entirely legal or horribly not so dependent upon who is the buyer. And no, you don’t get to claim ignorance of the end user. Strict liability applies here, if the bad guys get it then you’re guilty. The sentence might mitigate, the jury might, but not liability.

It’s an interesting area of business. Ahem.

71 thoughts on “Easy enough to do”

  1. Admittedly the report is not very clear, eg it appears that the guy has 2 wives, but this seems worth emphasising :
    “The court heard that the couple were aware of the need for a license to export some of their products after Customs officials impounded their goods in 2009, due to concerns about the production of weapons of mass destruction in Iran.

    However, Mr and Mrs Attwater continued to deal with George, sending him the same parts that had been returned by border customs via a forwarding house in the Netherlands.”

    That suggests a certain determination to avoid customs restrictions

  2. Heh. I remember when the Americans considered cryptographic algorithms to be ‘munitions’ under the ITAR regulations and exporting them to be international arms smuggling. You could print such an algorithm on a T-shirt or coffee mug.

    Many countries ban the import of cryptography, even today. That can be an issue if you try to take a laptop through customs in certain places without realising what the local rules are, or what might be buried in the code of any application or software library.

  3. PGP.

    Export – download from a US internet site – required a licence. Print it out as a book, doesn’t. So, print the book, send it out, retype the code into a site outside the US, all gain access. That’s what they actually did.

    US law also has one saving grace. If you can buy it at Walmart – or the like – then it doesn’t require a licence, whatever else. Can’t be controlled so why bloody bother?

  4. Bloke in North Dorset

    Even when you have official approval to export it doesn’t necessarily protect you. I briefly knew one of the Matrix Churchill defendants, he was very close to a nervous breakdown and no amount of compensation will cover that.

    I didn’t particularly like Heseltine, but he did the right thing there, eventually.

  5. Two similar situations in the U.S. come immediately to mind.

    Alcohol laws are by the states, so there are 50 different sets in the U.S. Not so much today, but 40 years ago there was so much variance that it was funny. Utah was particularly queer.

    Firearms laws are by states, towns, counties, and the Feds. Over 20,000 laws, reputedly. Serious infringement. Most are reactionary; most are silly. I occasionally hear of out-of-state people arrested for felonies in New Jersey, being stopped in transit for traffic offenses, then discovered to be violating some NJ firearms law – a law no other state has. NJ, without humor, vigorously prosecutes such cases.

    I’ve heard of same for American hunters flying to Africa for safari, their flights being diverted, unscheduled to England, and their being arrested for violating British firearms laws.

    Fully one-third of my concealed carry class was on where you can’t carry. Living near NC, class covered the – vast – differences between SC and NC. I can carry in banks in one state, not the other.

    The law I found most peculiar is that in SC, you can carry a gun in your car’s console or glove box, without permit (but under the seat is a serious offense). Not allowed in NC, but you can open carry in NC without permit. So crossing north into NC, you must take your gun out of the console and place it on the passenger seat, in open view.

    Governments make it a tricky world to live in.

  6. Tim

    You may have missed the new Ten Commandments from a semi in Ely

    I have previously suggested that the advantages are that, firstly, tax payment on profits is ensured.

    Second, the objective of taxing profit once only is greatly assisted.

    Third, profit shifting becomes a largely meaningless exercise.

    Fourth, as a result most tax game playing will come to an end: in effect most tax haven usage will cease to be of benefit.

    Fifth, certainty on taxation will increase: this is what business always says it wants.

    Sixth, stakeholder confidence in business will grow.

    Seventh, investor risk will fall, which is likely to improve share prices.

    Eighth, the focus in business will be on the actual location of economic activity and not tax, which is likely to improve decision-making and so the rate of return on capital.

    Ninth, tax administration, audit and dispute costs are likely to fall as any sums under dispute will be reduced.

    Tenth, there will be a focus on improved tax and profit reporting as parallel tax books will cease to have as much relevance as they have in the past.

    All delivered courtesy of ‘Country by Country reporting’

  7. @ Gamecock,
    It has long amazed me how the protections of the federal constitution have been extended to the states (via interpretation of the 14th Amendment, iirc) except for those of the Second Amendment. So you can speak as you like in every corner of the USA, but not keep and bear arms similarly.

  8. I’ve heard of same for American hunters flying to Africa for safari, their flights being diverted, unscheduled to England, and their being arrested for violating British firearms laws.

    Only should matter if the firearms leave the baggage side of the airport? They shouldn’t be released to the passengers if the flight is diverted. I would be interested to see any reports you can recall.

    If it happened, I would expect it would be linked to handguns rather than rifles. Owning some serious rifles is legal here, even if you can’t fire them in many places.

  9. Hunting is a last bastion for legal handgun ownership in the UK – specifically for the humane dispatch of deer. It is not recommended to use one of the serious rifles for close up shooting.

  10. Mr. Worstall:

    Are we to understand “tubes” as electron tubes (such as magnetron, thyratron, travelling wave)?

    I dealt in these routinely (many years ago) as U.S. military
    surplus, selling almost exclusively to the several U.S. mfrs of such (most used, sold as scrap, a fair few in decent shape, some even new condition).

  11. No, tube tubes. As in, tubes of a zirconium niobium alloy, the tubes you put the uranium which you then stick into a reactor.

  12. Dear Mr Worstall

    “Have also dealt with radiation hardened chips for rockets and satellites. If they went into Soyuz to go to the space station then that’s fine. If they got diverted to military use then potential 20 years jug time again.”

    Surely the customer is the same – Russian government? If so, did you get a note from the president saying “we buy for use in Soyuz, da. Not for use in military, oh niet.”

    Would such a note be a get out of jail free card? Or would our beloved government just laugh hollowly as they marched you to the jug, saying: “And you fell for that, eh, Worstall?”

    Just asking for a friend (might be the same one as Bloke in Cyprus’s).

    DP

  13. Off topic but since we’re talking about grooming, I see a further 7 men who by a complete coincidence are of Asian Pakistani background have been just for raping and drugging girls who by a complete coincidence are white and many of whom were underage at the time.

    One girl spoke of having been made to have sex with upwards of 100 (coincidentally Asian) men.

    Coincidentally from the Muslim community.

    If only they had listened to NiV who would have explained that Muslims are kind and sweet and don’t do this sort of thing at all.

  14. “If only they had listened to NiV who would have explained that Muslims are kind and sweet and don’t do this sort of thing at all.”

    –Rolls eyes–

    Are you trying to pretend that white non-Muslim men are kind and sweet and wouldn’t rape kids?

  15. @NiV

    Some white men do rape kids.

    They’d struggle to find a taxi-rank full of mates to join in.

    If you can’t see the difference. Shame on you.

  16. So does that mean you are trying to pretend that there are no white men able to find a taxi rank of mates to join in?

  17. PJF, Sorry Squire, you must get your nomenclature right.

    Hunting is done in the Colonies but here in the UK the gentry and good folk stalk deer. There is no hunting season in the UK, only a Stalking season.

    I discovered this wasting an afternoon on Google trying to find out when you can shoot a Muntjac, an Indian deer that escaped from a big estate and is now almost a pest down here in the South of England. And no, no stalking season applies to the Muntjac, you can stalk it any time of the year as it is considered a pest.

  18. One girl spoke of having been made to have sex with upwards of 100 (coincidentally Asian) men.

    And apart from the 7 ringleaders none of those men will be prosecuted. Nor will the families who protect them or the ‘community leaders’ who bleat about racism while this shit goes on under their noses.

    @NiV – of all the disingenuous cunts who foul the internet, you may well be one of the worst. You know exactly what is going on here, you know exactly what the problem is, but you think your two-bit fucking sophistry will conceal the truth.

  19. @NiV – of all the disingenuous cunts who foul the internet, you may well be one of the worst. You know exactly what is going on here, you know exactly what the problem is, but you think your two-bit fucking sophistry will conceal the truth.

    Well said, MC. That Muslims organise systematic and large-scale sexual abuse of white (but not muslim) girls is, in NiV’s twisted little mind, equivalent to a few individual white predators who target and abuse girls of any religion or race. Apparently, he can’t see the difference – viz. that Muslim men seem to regard white (infidel) girls as legitimate prey.

  20. “@NiV – of all the disingenuous cunts who foul the internet, you may well be one of the worst. You know exactly what is going on here, you know exactly what the problem is, but you think your two-bit fucking sophistry will conceal the truth.”

    The truth is that you just tried to claim that it’s OK to rape children so long as you do it solo. (“If you can’t see the difference. Shame on you.”)

    And the truth is you just tried to smear an entire community for the crimes of 0.1% of them, but wriggled and moaned when I pointed out that your ‘logic’ applied just as well to white non-Muslim men.

    Could it be that you’re a white non-Muslim man yourself? Now what reason could you possibly have to want to downplay and not mention members of your own community doing it? Want to avoid any too-close scrutiny of your own behaviour, eh?

    I can’t think of anything *fouler* than to *use* raped children as a rhetorical club to beat your political enemies with, unless possibly it’s to excuse/minimise/ignore your own side’s child-rapes in the process. That’s just revolting.

  21. “That Muslims organise systematic and large-scale sexual abuse of white (but not muslim) girls”

    That’s a lie, as you should already know.

  22. @niv
    ““That Muslims organise systematic and large-scale sexual abuse of white (but not muslim) girls”

    That’s a lie, as you should already know.”

    so it’s just a coincidence all these muslim rape gangs with the same mo. You are such a lying disengenous piece of shit
    – in fact an enabler of these plankton

  23. “The truth is that you just tried to claim that it’s OK to rape children so long as you do it solo”

    Nobody here “tried to claim” that. Nor did anyone here make any statement that implied (according to the rules of logic) the content of your claim. You make Goebbels look like an honest man.

  24. “Nobody here “tried to claim” that.”

    Yes they did. That piece of shit AndrewC tried to make a moral distinction between child-rape-by-groups and child-rape-by-individuals, and implied that the latter was somehow more excusable.

    So stop fuckin’ lying about it.

  25. @ niv – still enabling your muslim friends i see – what do you get out of it – free taxi rides or a bit of the action?

  26. “@ niv – still enabling your muslim friends i see – what do you get out of it – free taxi rides or a bit of the action?”

    Still trying to minimise or ignore all the white rapists? Still trying to pretend that what Theo said wasn’t a lie?

  27. “That piece of shit AndrewC tried to make a moral distinction between child-rape-by-groups and child-rape-by-individuals,”

    No, he didn’t. Read what he said. Calmly and intelligently, even though that’s hard for you.

    “and implied that the latter was somehow more excusable.”

    Please demonstrate, using only the laws of logic, how his statements implied any such thing. You can’t, because it is impossible.

    Now run along and play with your micro-penis as you take your oestrogen supplements.

  28. “No, he didn’t.”

    Yes he did.

    “They’d struggle to find a taxi-rank full of mates to join in” implies that the distinction being made is between child-rape-by-groups and child-rape-by-individuals.

    “If you can’t see the difference. Shame on you.” The use of the word “shame” implies a moral distinction is being made. That he considers it an adequate/relevant response to my comments, observing that he’d drawn attention to group-rapists doing it but ignored individual rapists, implies that the moral distinction he’s making excuses him ignoring the mostly-white solo rapists but mentioning the mostly-Muslim group ones. He is implying that all the solo child rapes are not worth mentioning, that it’s unreasonable of me to bring them up, while at the same time obviously believing that it’s reasonable for him to bring the off-topic subject up for the particular type of perpetrators he wants to criticise.

    But you knew all that. That was the entire point of his comment – to excuse him bringing up Muslim rapists and ignoring all the others. Because it’s not the rape of children he cares about, only being able to use it to smear Muslims.

    As do you, as you agreed with his comment.

  29. NiV:
    ” ‘They’d struggle to find a taxi-rank full of mates to join in’ implies that the distinction being made is between child-rape-by-groups and child-rape-by-individuals.”

    No, that’s what you inferred. What was implied is that white child-rapists would be more likely to act alone.

    There certainly are white men (sometimes women) who act together to sexually abuse children, but this tends to happen in the secret confines of closed organisations. Open occurrences in the general community must be extremely rare. Open occurrences exclusively targeting children of another race / culture must be non-existent. We’d never hear the last of it.
    .

    I note that above you ascribed to MC something that AndrewC said. After you made such a complete and utter twat of yourself ascribing something to me that Pcar said, I’d have thought you’d be more careful. You really aren’t as clever as you like to think you are.

  30. “That piece of shit AndrewC tried to make a moral distinction between child-rape-by-groups and child-rape-by-individuals, and implied that the latter was somehow more excusable.”

    No, really, he didn’t.

    You can only win (in your own mind) by making false accusations. This is your m.o.. Some of the accusations you make, if made outside of an anonymous comments thread, would earn you either a defamation lawsuit or a good beating. Here, we can just laugh at you and call you a cunt.

    This is because you are:
    a) laughable
    b) a cunt

  31. Jollygreenman:
    “…you can shoot a Muntjac, an Indian deer that escaped from a big estate and is now almost a pest down here in the South of England.”

    Ah, more problems with imports from the subcontinent. At least the appropriate solution is available here.

  32. “What was implied is that white child-rapists would be more likely to act alone.”

    Child-rapists of any race are more likely to act alone.

    “There certainly are white men (sometimes women) who act together to sexually abuse children, but this tends to happen in the secret confines of closed organisations. Open occurrences in the general community must be extremely rare.”

    It’s a standard feature of gang culture, and gangs are generally quite open. Haven’t you ever heard of “sket lists”?

    http://uobrep.openrepository.com/uobrep/bitstream/10547/305795/1/Gangs-Report-final.pdf

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/girls-as-young-as-11-targeted-on-sket-lists-as-gangs-use-sexual-violence-as-weapon-9617940.html

    Girls as young as 11 are being targeted for “revenge rapes” in an escalation of sexual violence between London’s rival gangs, a charity warned today.

    Gang members are said to have drawn up lists of girls they consider to be legitimate rape targets and exploit low conviction rates to spread fear and settle scores.

    The so-called “sket lists” (sket is offensive street slang for women) have, according to youth workers, led to incidents where girls are dragged off school buses and sexually assaulted.

    Police and charities say they have recorded an increase in the use of sexual violence by gangs, including incidents where the sisters and girlfriends of rival gang members are targeted.

    […]

    Figures from the Safer London Foundation reveal that more than 500 young women were victims of gang-related sexual violence in the past year.

    “Open occurrences exclusively targeting children of another race / culture must be non-existent.”

    It’s not exclusive. That’s a lie (as I just told Theo). I linked a 100 page report proving that, last time around. Wasn’t you paying attention?

    “I note that above you ascribed to MC something that AndrewC said.”

    If you’re going to take sides in an argument, you own everything said by your team. If you express support for them and no criticisms, I’m going to assume you agree with what they say.

    And of course nobody else around here ever does any research, checks what they say, or has any problem with writing and endless stream of falsehoods and childish invective. Why on Earth do you think I would be bothered about that? You think that’s the most significant part of the argument’s logic? Why am I the only one around here who’s supposed to have standards?

    I guess I could take that as a sort of compliment, yes? 🙂

  33. “No, really, he didn’t.”

    Yes really, he did.

    “Some of the accusations you make, if made outside of an anonymous comments thread, would earn you either a defamation lawsuit or a good beating.”

    Plenty of the comments you guys make here would get you fired, arrested, and ostracised from respectable society for its racism, Islamophobia, homophobia, etc. You’re well aware, I’m sure, of what low regard your sort of views are held in British society nowadays.

    Do you really want to stand up in court under your own name, present to the judge and jury one of your tirades smearing Muslims, claiming things like that I “would have explained that Muslims are kind and sweet and don’t do this sort of thing at all” or that I’m a “lying disengenous piece of shit” in evidence, and try to claim “defamation”?!! That’d be so funny!

  34. @ NiV
    I try not to descend to Ecks’ level but the gang rapes in London are not by white gangs, so citing them as evidence is self-defeating

  35. “If you’re going to take sides in an argument, you own everything said by your team.”

    Shit made up by NiV # 326759 and # 2.

    (# 2 is another classic – invent some shit to pretend that you didn’t just fuck up)

  36. “I try not to descend to Ecks’ level but the gang rapes in London are not by white gangs, so citing them as evidence is self-defeating”

    About a third white, two thirds black or mixed race. The point is here, though, they’re not predominantly Asian. And more importantly, it’s clear that it’s got nothing to do with race or religion, but part of the standard criminality of violent gang culture. Drugs, guns, knives, robbery, and violence. Every culture has them – it’s more to do with poverty, lack of education and job prospects, lack of effective law enforcement, and a crime-glorifying ‘gangsta’ culture. There are more blacks there because that’s who is poor in London.

    Although I’d not describe that as “descend[ing] to Ecks’ level”. It was a sensible and logical point, polite, and well made. It just happened to be a reply to a slightly different point to the one I intended, albeit an understandable interpretation. I’ve got no problem with civilised disagreement in debate.

  37. “Shit made up by NiV # 326759 and # 2.”

    Is that supposed to be a logical and evidence-based refutation?

    “(# 2 is another classic – invent some shit to pretend that you didn’t just fuck up)”

    Don’t need to.

    I don’t care.

  38. DP

    Surely the customer is the same – Russian government? If so, did you get a note from the president saying “we buy for use in Soyuz, da. Not for use in military, oh niet.”

    Would such a note be a get out of jail free card? Or would our beloved government just laugh hollowly as they marched you to the jug, saying: “And you fell for that, eh, Worstall?”

    Tim

    My responsibility. If the Russian Govt lied to me then I still go to jail.

    Interesting. On the basis of “what the hell due diligence can one possibly carry out there” (in the example above) it points towards a very small group of utterly proven and already vetted potential buyers? ie 100% regulated and monitored.

  39. “ignoring the mostly-white solo rapists but mentioning the mostly-Muslim group ones.”

    As others have said, I neither implied not meant any of the bollocks you said.

    I’d expect that in a mostly white country most rapists would be white.

    Statistically there ought to be 9 or 10 times as many gangs of white men drugging and raping teenagers and sending them around their mates in acts that cannot have gone unnoticed in their community. There ought to be a sprinkling of Indian gangs Chinese gangs and so on.

    But there don’t seem to be. Virtually every gang is from the same community.

    And some people are saying this suggests a problem in that community.

    But not you. Cause you read something in the Koran that said “gang banging drugged up teenagers isn’t nice” so it can’t be happening. Or it’s racist to suggest it is. It whatever the fuck the argument is you use to try and defend these people.

  40. Sanctions on tubes, deer stalking and Muslim child rape gangs.

    Well done on the thread topic diversity folks!

    Tim, why did you finish with the funny metals trading game in the end?

  41. Well done with coming up with the word “sket”, NiV.
    But if you actually knew anything about the world you’d know that “sket”, in this context, is Jamaican patois. Nothing to do with white men at all. And you’ve stumbled on the other community that regards young white girls as fair game. Immigrant again, of course.

  42. Yes, that’s the point. As a pencil sketch, there’re three levels of US export licence. Commerce – fill out the form, wait a couple of weeks. State, form, couple of months. At the top end, real, proper examination. Space rocket chips, supercomputers, that sorta stuff, nuclear bits perhaps. Not exactly sure of the system right now but back in the day this would require the sign off of every Nato govt – maybe not exactly but that sort of level of scrutiny – before issuance. Absolutey eveyone knows who the en user is, you’ve got to define it. An if they think not for that person then you don’t get the licence.

  43. I lost my advantage. I had a great set of contacts into the supply line, an absolute advantage. Times changed, supply dried up, I lost the price and delivery advantage. In one instance the entire supply line moved from being Russia based to China. I had an advantage in the first, not in the second.

    I still know rather more about some parts of this world than many of the people working in it. But that’s not sufficient advantage to make the work worth the candle. The volume of trade in the areas I know so well is small, so margins have to be fat to support me and the work. Margins are no longer fat – at least not for me – thus not worth it. Not that I’d want to have to prove these numbers, but the work which two decades ago might make me $60k a year might now make me $6k. So, do something else instead. Things are different if you, say, trade copper. There’s sufficient volume that thin margins cover the overheads. Scandium’s still a few tonnes a year at most. There isn’t any volume for thin margins to work.

  44. Thanks Tim, that’s super interesting.

    Did you take the metal on your own inventory back in the day, with the working capital that requires? Or just act as an agent?

  45. Rob

    I wondered the same thing then saw those dreaded three initials ‘No intrinsic value’ at about comment 18. I am suddenly nostalgic for Arnald and DBCReed…. Send me your pro- Murphy screeds, your paeans to Land Value Tax, your theories on ‘Money creation in the modern economy’…

  46. Well, he was pretty much commissioned by AndrewC to perform for the discussion. Can’t blame him for taking the gig.

  47. Broking, not principal. Always organising and broking, not consuming capital. Except, would actually be the principal in the middle, I buy, I sell, not just take a commission on a contract organised. If that’s clear enough?

  48. “Girls as young as 11 are being targeted for “revenge rapes” in an escalation of sexual violence between London’s rival gangs, a charity warned today.”

    Something tells me this might another advantage of ‘diversity’ rather than bands of marauding youths called Toby and Hugh raping girls called Hermione and Lavinia.

  49. SE, I heard the tales of Heathrow arrests ~10 years ago when I was a member of Safari Club International. I have tried to find reports, but Yahoo wants to tell me about baggage handlers arrested for smuggling cocaine.

    As with most search engines, they tell me what they want me to have, not what I ask for.

    I did get a first-hand report by a friend having been held in a Moscow jail for 9 hours. He was going hunting in Turkistan, and he had a connecting flight in Moscow. His guns/ammo were in checked baggage. It was obvious that baggage handlers called in the authorities when they found a gun in the baggage.

    “I’m going hunting in Turkistan” was an inadequate defense.

    Perfidy is ubiquitous.

  50. NiV = Not invertibrate: Spinelessan insect, parasite, amoeba, bacteria, virus, vegetable

    .
    Revealed – the true scale of the Paedophile rape culture

    Are you satisfied that justice has been done with the Pakistani-Punjabi ethnic Muslim paedophile rape gangs of Huddersfield, Rotherham, and cities across the UK? I’m not, and here’s why you shouldn’t be either.

    That’s because only the pimp gangs organising these mass rapes have been convicted. The many tens of thousands of their customers (almost all from the same ethnic/religious background) have simply not been pursued

    .
    Rape Gang Victim’s Mother: Police Ignored Pleas to Find Charlene Because She Was Working Class

    The mother of Charlene Downes, the 14-year-old Blackpool girl who police suspect was groomed for sex and it is claimed was ground up for kebab meat by her killers, believes her original pleas to find her daughter were ignored because she was working class.

  51. Typo:
    NiV = New invertebrate: Spineless, an insect, parasite, amoeba, bacteria, virus, vegetable

    .
    Police Dealing with Less than 20% of Rotherham’s 1,523 Rape Gang Victims

    .
    Islam is not a religion of peace. Mohammed was not a good man, By Shazia

    …today we have evolved enough to know that marrying and having sex with children is a sick and disgusting practice that belongs in the Dark Ages, yet we find it still happens in many Muslim countries. Why? Because Muhammad was of great moral character and Muslims try and follow in his footsteps. This isn’t something they deny, it is the apologists that try and make excuses and speak for them.

    the apologists that try and make excuses and speak for them” – spot on Shazia

  52. @pcar – Kemal Atataturk summed it up – “islam this absurd theology of an immoral bedouin, is a rotting corpse that poisons our lives” – now it’s poisoning our lives in the west and NIV cheers them on.

    But of course the he woman/she man NIV knows better. I don’t know whether it’s a woman with a penis or a man with a vagina – i do know it’s all cunt.

  53. “I’d expect that in a mostly white country most rapists would be white.”

    They are.

    It provided us with data on the number of defendants prosecuted for sex offences in cases flagged as relating to child abuse in 2015/16. It also included the ethnicity of those defendants.

    Of the 6,200 or so defendants in these prosecutions, 67% were white, 4% were Asian, 3% were black, 1% were mixed race and 1% were other. For 24% of defendant’s there was no information on their ethnicity.

    […]

    There are other figures published by the government on those found guilty of offences against children, but these aren’t as recent. Almost 85% of offenders found guilty of sexual activity with a minor in England and Wales in 2011 were white. 3% were black and 4% were Asian and the rest were either listed as ‘other’ or unknown.

    I’ve quoted the statistics before – so why didn’t you know that most rapists in this country are white, and where did you get the idea from that they weren’t? It certainly wasn’t any official statistics!

    “Statistically there ought to be 9 or 10 times as many gangs of white men drugging and raping teenagers and sending them around their mates in acts that cannot have gone unnoticed in their community.”

    Only if you assume incidence is statistically independent (i.e. that the gangs don’t copy one another, or share membership), and only if you assume that’s the only thing they’ve got in common.

    And also, only if you assume that they’re investigated/prosecuted evenly. With all the publicity around it, maybe the police are targeting the asians in particular at the moment? Maybe, having broken a few cases, more victims are coming forward in those cases? We don’t know. We’re only seeing part of the picture.

    And of course it was noticed – everyone in the white community noticed it too! (Just as everyone has noticed the drugs gangs in London. Just as everyone knew who the Kray twins or Al Capone were.) Noticing it and being able to do anything about it are two different things.

    “But there don’t seem to be. Virtually every gang is from the same community.”

    About half of them are from that community. ‘Half’ is not ‘virtually every’.

    “But not you. Cause you read something in the Koran that said “gang banging drugged up teenagers isn’t nice” so it can’t be happening. Or it’s racist to suggest it is.”

    I’ve *never* said it’s not happening. I’ve only said it’s got nothing to do with Islam, and that 99.9% of Muslims are innocent of it.

    Islamic orthodoxy contains a lot of shitty practices, which I’m very ready to condemn, but this isn’t one of them. In Islam it is absolutely forbidden, sexual immorality is condemned repeatedly in the most excoriating terms, and anyone caught doing it is subject to a public flogging. Muslim men are not even allowed to look at women! Islam condemns them absolutely as sinners and criminals.

    “It whatever the fuck the argument is you use to try and defend these people.”

    Depends who you mean by “these people”. I’m not defending the rapists. They’re evil scum who deserve punishment. What I’m objecting to is lumping thousands of other innocents into “these people” because they happen to share a characteristic with them.

    If a feminist cites a case of a man committing rape, and condemns all men as rapists, and I object that most men are not rapists, would be horrified at the thought of rape, and indeed have a somewhat more violent and punitive approach to any fellow man they catch doing it, does my defence of men constitute a defence of the rapist? Am I trying to claim that men never rape women, that the rape didn’t happen, that men are all sweet natured and would never do such a thing?

    As a man, would you describe yourself as a rapist? Does that mean that you’re denying that men are rapists? Would you object very much if we designated all men, including yourself, as rapists and treated you as such?

    Would you claim not to be aware that there were (and still are) active rapists within your community of fellow men? Why didn’t you stop them? Do you agree that this community of men are a ‘problem’?

    This business of associating the innocent with the guilty because of a shared characteristic – as in ‘these rapists are all men, you are a man, therefore you are a rapist’ – seems too stupid and obvious for anyone to take seriously, except that thousands of people do. It’s weird! It appears that if people happen to intensely dislike the group targeted, they become blind to the illogic, even when it’s repeatedly pointed out to them.

    They’re totally convinced that this is a convincing argument, and seem bemused to find that other’s don’t find it obvious. What causes that, do you think?

    “Well, he was pretty much commissioned by AndrewC to perform for the discussion. Can’t blame him for taking the gig.”

    🙂

    I almost always am!

    If you don’t want to discuss it, don’t discuss it. If you do, don’t complain.

  54. “In Islam it is absolutely forbidden, sexual immorality is condemned repeatedly in the most excoriating terms, and anyone caught doing it is subject to a public flogging. Muslim men are not even allowed to look at women! Islam condemns them absolutely as sinners and criminals.”

    So all those convicted of these offences will be cast out by the good Muslims of Rochdale/Telford/Oxford etc etc etc and be non persons, declared apostates to the religion and not acceptable to employ, socialise, do business or attend mosque with? After all if Islam teaches that such people are so evil, and their behaviour is so far outside the Islamic teachings they surely will do that for sure won’t they?

    Or will their behaviour be ignored by all the other ‘good Muslims’ entirely?

  55. NIV – still covering up for Muslim rape gangs. Islam is a cancer and muslims are the cells. Everywhere Islam goes – theft, death, rape, slavery, paedophilia brutalising of women.1400 years Islam has been playing the same hand – ever since that piece of shit claimed he was visited by god. The fact that you continue lying about this means that you are probably a muslim practising taqqiya. If you are not a muslim then you are obviously in need of intensive psychiatric treatment. Either way you are a cunt and a shitstain on the underpants of humanity. Now fuck off.

  56. “So all those convicted of these offences will be cast out by the good Muslims of Rochdale/Telford/Oxford etc etc etc and be non persons, declared apostates to the religion and not acceptable to employ, socialise, do business or attend mosque with?”

    I kinda doubt most of them were big mosque-goers, anyway. They’d definitely not be welcome now.

    “The fact that you continue lying about this means that you are probably a muslim practising taqqiya.”

    Sharia law was all written down hundreds of years ago, and is widely available. The texts were written by Muslims, for Muslims, and long before there was any need to lie about stuff – and are today endorsed by senior representatives of every madhab. What I say can be easily confirmed. Like I said, Islamic orthodoxy contains many shitty things, but it doesn’t contain this. That’s easy for any Muslim to prove, or for any neutral party to check, so if you go around claiming otherwise you’ll just confirm to anyone watching that it’s *you* that’s lying.

    And applying ‘Falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus’, they’ll likely conclude you’re lying about everything else, too. Is that what you want?

    When fighting a war, ***accurate*** aim at the enemy is essential. Just spraying bullets randomly in all directions is as likely to frustrate you’re own side’s efforts as it is to inconvenience the enemy.

  57. @New invertebrate

    Seems more and more outside the PC SJW MSM bubble resent your surrender to RoP, are you now a RoP?

    Reporting restrictions imposed…….but ONLY on Muslim Child Rape and Sex Abuse Trials.

    Good article and well said. State excusing and hiding this barbaric abhorrent behaviour is evil and encourages the child rape gangs to continue as only a few may be charged. Even if they are, they are allowed to flee to Pakistan or serve a lenient sentence

    btw: your claim that RoPs must adhere to strong sex laws only applies to other RoPs, non-RoPs are infidels considered slaves.or non-people who may be exploited

  58. “Good article and well said.”

    No it wasn’t. And since I’ve already refuted the exact points it makes – at length – you already knew it was wrong!

    It first picks out a list of cases involving Muslim grooming gangs and then claims they’re 99% Muslim. But that’s because he picked them on that basis! If I did an internet search for all the crimes committed by one-legged dwarfs, listed them, and then told you that 99% of the perpetrators were one-legged dwarfs, you’d be amazed!

    The second point, about all victims being white, is the same lie I criticised Theo for above. I gave a link to a 100+ page report detailing their abuse of asian girls last time around, so you ought to have already known it was false. Do you think if you repeat the lie often enough, people will eventually come to believe it is true?

    And the reporting restrictions it mentions next are a standard measure courts impose in split trials, or where reporting could prejudice the trial. Restrictions are lifted after the trial – it’s not hiding anything.

    It then goes on to says that reports were “routinely ignored, shelved, or pushed to the back of a deep drawer”, and makes up it’s own reason for why this might be. But the police already explained that one – the victims wouldn’t cooperate with the police, either being too terrified or believing themselves to be in loving relationships, and so the police had no solid evidence on which to base a prosecution, only hearsay. It’s like the #MeToo cases – the police routinely ignore all those reports too, unless the victim comes and makes an official complaint.

    “State excusing and hiding this barbaric abhorrent behaviour is evil and encourages the child rape gangs to continue as only a few may be charged.”

    Telling easily-provable lies about it is far more effective at hiding it and making them harder to prosecute, as they have to set the evidence bar higher to exclude all the false accusations. That’s what you’re doing now, and yes, it’s evil.

    “btw: your claim that RoPs must adhere to strong sex laws only applies to other RoPs, non-RoPs are infidels considered slaves.or non-people who may be exploited”

    Bullcrap. You just made that up.

    There are examples in the haddith of the law being applied to non-Muslims, and being applied to slaves, too. Muslims are only permitted to have sex with their wives and their own slaves. They cannot have sex with any other Muslims, any non-Muslims, or anybody else’s slaves. And slavery only occurs when captured as prisoners of war during jihad, authorised by the Caliph – non-Muslims are not slaves until captured. Non-Muslims living under agreement in a Muslim state as dhimma are not slaves. Non-Muslims yet to be conquered in dar-al-harb are not slaves.

    http://islamqa.org/hanafi/askimam/11482

    And if Muslims are living/working in non-Muslim states (for trade, or dawa) then they are required to obey local laws so long as they don’t require something that’s a sin in Sharia.

    http://www.daruliftaa.com/node/5852

    Sharia law on zina has some major problems – foremost among them being the risk of a victim of rape being accused of it too. A rape report potentially constitutes a confession to unlawful sex, and without the witnesses to prove it was rape (demonstrated by struggling and screaming for help), could get the woman jailed. That makes women very unwilling to come forward, and results in a lot of men getting away with it. However, that’s a case of men sinning *against* Islam, it is very definitely not permitted or encouraged by Sharia.

    Applying ‘Falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus’ on your understanding of Sharia, readers will likely conclude you’re lying about everything else you say about it, too. Is that what you want?

  59. NiVs arguments remind me of one of those Leftists who used to argue that Communism was more efficient than Capitalism – lots of science and complicated political theory, while the rest of us look at pictures of bread queues vs Tescos and make our own minds up.

    Similarly regardless of what the Koran and all its associated writings might say about how Muslims should or should not behave, all Islamic countries are shitholes on every level. One might almost conclude there’s a link……..

  60. “…all Islamic countries are shitholes on every level.”

    Have to disagree there, Jim. Some of them are pretty nice on many levels.

    Nice analogy re NiV. The substitute religion element is strong in these somethingist and whateverarian types. It’s like arguing with a bible basher who can leap to scripture for any occasion. Bible bashers tend to be less cuntish, mind.

  61. Well, well; I stand corrected.

    Seems NiV was correct about RoP kiddies being raped to, difference being this is not RoP publicly accepted gang-rape, it’s secret 1 on 1.

    #1400 Campaign: Leftists Prioritise Hate Over Victims

    The blind hatred for one man is so great that it now overrides the desire to help victims of abuse, victims who are desperately in need of help. When … shared The #1400Campaign promotion, the usual far left blue-ticked haters were all over Twitter quickly smearing it and telling their followers not to back the campaign.

    For the past few years I have been looking at ways in which a helpline for Muslim victims of child sexual abuse could be set up. Anyone who thinks that there is no abuse of Muslim children is sadly mistaken. The Muslim paedophiles will be raping the children in their own communities. They may not be raping them and passing them round their relatives to rape or trafficking them to strangers all across the UK as with the white girls, but raping them they will be. This is known in the community that I was raised in.

    Or perhaps they can do the decent thing and support a survivor with her campaign and her mission to save other children from suffering the evil that she did. Imagine that, the hater Left doing something for the good of humanity. Wouldn’t that be a pleasant change?…

    Good article by Shazia highlighting the rank hypocrisy of left Mob/Npc.

  62. @Jim, November 2, 2018 at 10:25 pm

    NiVs arguments remind me of one of those Leftists who used to argue that Communism was more efficient than Capitalism – lots of science and complicated political theory, while the rest of us look at pictures of bread queues vs Tescos and make our own minds up.

    Excellent comparison.

    First time I went to a supermarket in Sweden (1996) I thought similar. They were like a 1960s UK supermarket. Limited choice too: Apples, Potatoes etc 1 variety.

  63. PJF: “Hunting is a last bastion for legal handgun ownership in the UK…”

    Are handguns legal for deer shooting in the UK? I know it’s a common weapon in the States, but I thought it wasn’t permitted here?

    And I see NiV is denying that grooming is linked to Islam again. *yawns*

    Might as well deny that your laptop falling from the edge of the table is linked to gravity.

  64. JuliaM, only for humane dispatch of animals – not for hunting (stalking!) itself.

    http://firearmsuk.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/handguns_for_humane_dispatch_2012-1.pdf

    I have no direct knowledge or experience of this; the discussion above reminded me of something I was told by a hunting enthusiast. I got the impression that you’d not get a handgun licence unless you were well known to be properly involved in that scene.

    NiV could fairly pick holes in your gravity analogy. The laptop is in the same force of gravity whether it’s sitting on the table or travelling to the floor. Something else (force of cat?) caused its vector change.
    You’re just playing the force-a / force-b trick. 😉

  65. Handgun hunting in the U.S. is regulated by each state. It varies from, “NFW” to “Sure, why not?”

    Some states that allow it have minimum calibre restrictions.

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