Ooooh, that’s good then

A surge in Ukip membership is shifting the party decisively towards the far right, as long-standing moderates are replaced by entrants attracted by an anti-Islam agenda based on street protest, a Guardian investigation can reveal.

So despite what everyone said for two decades we weren’t far right then?

41 thoughts on “Ooooh, that’s good then”

  1. I could be wrong but to me it seemed that UKIP began as a libertarian party but then about 10 (?) years ago changed to appeal to the sterotypical traditional working class voter with socially conservative views but slightly left wing economic views. That’s when I started to go off them. Now they do seem to have gone a bit far right which I find uncomfortable.

    I’ll be interested in what this new Brexit Party have to offer, other then Brexit, obviously.

  2. Given the current circumstances they are trying to find a platform with broad appeal, but differentiated from the other parties.

    I suspect that is going to be quite tough, but wish UKIP luck in doing so.

    Must say that they didn’t appeal to me before as anything other than a protest vote against the EU and they don’t really appeal in a world where the EU is no longer “cosa nostra” (literally “Our Thing”)

  3. Well they’ve have the increasingly valuable selling point of Not Tories/Labour/Liberal/Greens. That could well be of growing importance……

    I miss the old libertarian bend to UKIP too, but too many people with power seem very determined that nobody be allowed to live that way.

    Brexit has given my contempt for the current party options….

    The situation with Islam needs attention focused or will end in a crime against Humanity (could be Muslim victims or non-muslim, I can’t tell yet).

    Doesn’t leave much….

  4. A surge in Ukip membership

    But I’m pretty sure the Guardian has been telling us for two years that UKIP are a tiny splinter party who could probably all go to their party conference on the same tandem bicycle.


  5. So despite what everyone said for two decades we weren’t far right then?

    What do you call someone who is against religious fundamentalism, the torture of animals, the victimisation of women and gays, the destruction of working class communities and child rape?

    Far-Right.

  6. I came across an interesting distinction between Fascism and an authoritarian Conservative regime in a lecture about 20 th century Fascism. It pointed out to the gulf between the symbolism and ideas behind Italian and German Fascists and Franco who was an authoritarian Conservative.
    If you think of the Strasserist wing of German National socialism or Mussolini’s socialist and trade union background , you can see that left and right are murky adjectives in this area.
    You always have to remember that ethnic self-determination aa was a ”good thing” until the mid 20th century when its implications came to the boil , so to speak . The Liberal Nationalist revolutions of the 19th century were “ Good” and “ Romantic”, Mussolini is part of this tradition and was actually quite popular in progressive circles in his early period
    So armed with a perspective what can we say about UKIPs move right ? It is in fact a shift from Gladstonian Free Trade Nationalism mixed with sheer idiot conservatism to something more like Fascism as previously represented by the BNP
    I attended several Bruge group meetings myself and I do wonder if those old biffers are really signed up to the Fascist street war . I doubt it and I`d suggest that they let go of the tigers’ tail

    Overall I`d say it was shift left towards ethnic collectivism but the tension between these two conflicting ideas has been in the Brexit vote form the start . The former won the referendum but the latter are controlling the outcome , clearly there is a gap in the market
    (Bit boring sorry , just a few thoughts )

  7. It’s easy.

    Communist = “left-leaning”

    Classical Liberal or Conservative = “far right”

  8. “Franco who was an authoritarian Conservative.”

    Franco was supported by an anti-Red coalition that included the Falange (= fascists), Royalists (of two varieties), Nationalists, and the continental style of reactionary Roman Catholics.

    There must have been plenty of not-very-political people who wanted rid of the coalition of socialists, anarchists, and communists that was murdering priests and nuns. I suppose they were just the sort of not-very-political people that you might reasonably call conservative.

  9. Am I the only one to note that “far right” organisations are mostly composed of the working class that the left claims to love?
    As to the issue, UKIP needed an issue that is of concern to ordinary people but ignored by the establishment. Brexit, Islam and the measures to combat climate change all fit the bill.

  10. long-standing moderates are replaced by entrants

    Good luck finding past Guardian articles where UKIP members are regarded as ‘moderates’. I’d search for a ginger Unicorn if I were you – the odds of success are better.

  11. When I was involved in LPUK a lot of the early members were ex-UKIP who were looking for something more than a single issue party. One member described his local UKIP meetings as exceedingly dull with nobody interested in anything other than leaving the EU.

  12. Pat – the Brexit referendum result unleashed a torrent of middle-class progressive class hate against plebs like myself. The Guardian (and especially the comments) seethes with it these days, they were celebrating the job losses at Honda for example.

    Not that this is exactly new, but they used to hide it better. Charlie Brooker – who is as astute a television critic as he isn’t a political pundit – spotted this tendency years ago on an otherwise forgettable Beeb post-apocalypse drama where the goodies were all nice middle class Guardian reader type folks (plus diverse pets) and the evil baddies were the kind of orrible white working class morlocks Enid Blyton would’ve phoned Neighbourhood Watch about.

  13. I’m sure this isn’t a new observation, but actual posh people don’t seem to do class hate (the few Old Etonians and minor gentry I’ve met seemed to be bloody nice blokes and comfortable talking to anybody).

    Seems to be a curtain-twitching social climber thing.

  14. I’m sure this isn’t a new observation, but actual posh people don’t seem to do class hate (the few Old Etonians and minor gentry I’ve met seemed to be bloody nice blokes and comfortable talking to anybody).

    Seems to be a curtain-twitching social climber thing.

    Began to happen in the 1980s as the working classes began to obtain the ways and means of buying their own property. Now ‘done-good’ working class people are able to compete with (and beat) the dim middle class or Guardian set (but I repeat myself) who don’t earn as much, and they are resentful and bewildered. “Why should an electrician or a builder earn more money and afford a nicer house than a middle-class graduate with an Arts degree?” they wonder.

  15. From what I could gather ( relative who’s been a UKIP activist & personal friend of both Farage & Nutall ) no-one in the UKIP leadership had a clue what the purpose of the party should be past the achieving of a referendum. At the least they should have planned for shepherding a Leave result through the negotiating process of leaving. I suspect a vociferous UKIP with a substantial number of MPs would have countered the Remaniacs & changed the whole nature of the past couple years. And a platform of being the Leave “caretakers” could have achieved exactly that at the last GE.
    Past that, a party opposed to some of the “progressivism” running wild in the two major parties would receive wide support. Indifference to Islamification whilst concentrating on trannie rights are hardy popular policies out in the country. There’s a gaping void to the right of UK politics if not, to be honest, in the centre ground. Both parties are well to the left of the electorate. Someone needs to fill it.

  16. OT but on the matter of the alleged increase in extremism, just got this email from my daughter’s primary school.

    Dear Families
    Many of you will be aware that there is another proposed Climate Change March happening on Friday 15th March. This is an opportunity for our children to express their concerns about what is happening to their planet. It is their generation who will face the consequences of our inaction and we would like to facilitate and support their protest. Note that we are not encouraging primary age children to strike, but instead will support them to march to parliament after school as part of a wider set of activities on climate change as part of our monthly eco-challenge.
    Many thanks
    The Primary School Eco Committee

  17. Remember the days (last month) when taking your child out of school even for one day would irreparably damage their education? That was before Woke Absences, I suppose.

    These people are shameless liars.

  18. Steve,

    “I’m sure this isn’t a new observation, but actual posh people don’t seem to do class hate (the few Old Etonians and minor gentry I’ve met seemed to be bloody nice blokes and comfortable talking to anybody).

    Seems to be a curtain-twitching social climber thing.”

    I wouldn’t generalise about that. There’s plenty of Etonians in parliament who don’t seem to have any idea about working people.

    The rural poshos tend to be fine, and that’s because they generally rub shoulders with the working classes. They have them working for them a great deal. Either farming, or in businesses on estates. I know someone who owns a pile in Gloucestershire. He has some farming, some bits of farms converted into offices, a distillery and so forth.

    Many people (and not just poshos but many people in the middle classes) never really meet the real working classes. They meet them in a cafe, or get their houses cleaned by them, but they never work with them or share the same pubs, or live in the same neighbourhoods, or have any as friends. When a politician turns up at a factory in a hard hat for a photo shoot, they aren’t going to get to meet the workers who are vocal supporters of Tommy Robinson. They’re going to be presented with the ones that give the company the right image.

  19. I suspect if I had a kid at primary school in the UK I’d be shaking members of the Primary School Eco Committee affectionately by the throat. It never ceases to amaze me how people will put up with this shit for fear as being labelled “awkward”.. It persists & thrives because so many are too gutless to resist.

  20. Are there any people not associated with existing parties who could credibly form a new party? The experience of UKIP even before the referendum doesn’t inspire confidence. The shit they had to put up with from everyone shows how tough you have to be to make it happen. The other way, attracting existing party apparatchiks, doesn’t work either, as the SDP yonks ago and now the Tiggers show.

  21. I’m sure this isn’t a new observation, but actual posh people don’t seem to do class hate (the few Old Etonians and minor gentry I’ve met seemed to be bloody nice blokes and comfortable talking to anybody).

    I got to know an Irish Guards Sgt very well and a Blues and Royals Trooper reasonably well in the ’80s. They both made that point that their best officers were those who came from old money and were generally looking to burnish their CVs and so they could join the right clubs.

    The rural poshos tend to be fine, and that’s because they generally rub shoulders with the working classes. They have them working for them a great deal. Either farming, or in businesses on estates. I know someone who owns a pile in Gloucestershire. He has some farming, some bits of farms converted into offices, a distillery and so forth.

    Old Labour used to understand the working man because most of them had served and fought alongside them in WW2 or at least done national service with them. That’s why the had such loyalty.

    The Primary School Eco Committee

    Send them a copy of this graph at Guido’s and tell them to get on with what they’re paid to do, teach children to read, write and count.

  22. “The rural poshos tend to be fine, and that’s because they generally rub shoulders with the working classes.”

    This is true. They tend to share the same interests as well, dogs, horses, huntin’ shootin’ and fishin’ etc. Its a bit of a cliche grounded in truth that if you’re visiting a rural pile and see a scruffily dressed old chap about the place its a toss up whether he’s the bloke who helps the gamekeeper out, or the owner of the lot…………

  23. Interestingly, in my local history research of my home town, things like the Rates List in the 19th century shows that most “working class” people were owner occupiers. The big change was the 1920s/1930s when the local council started building rental estates on the outskirts of town and “slum clearing” the houses the new tenants used to own.

    Even as late as 1952 my great-grandmother sold the house she shared with her mother after she died, and bought her own place – £150 down and a three-year mortgage of £100 a year. 😀 But modern-day sociologists would insist her mother, owning and running a confectionary shop and living above made her middle class.

  24. @ jgh
    Yes, owning/running a CTN was middle-class – “petit bourgeois”. Those were the people demonised by the Rochdale co-operative movement. In strict economic theory she was a capitalist because she earned some of her income by using her savings (“capital”) to buy sweets in bulk from a wholesaler and selling them on at a higher price to schoolchildren.
    I think that your town was unusual if *most* working-class people were owner-occupiers. Overall I believe that a large proportion of skilled artisans (and miners) were owner-occupiers but relatively few unskilled workers.

  25. @ Jim
    I can no longer find the passage in the book but my memory is that “Anatomy of Britain” quoted a vistor mistaking the Duke of Devonshire for a gardener. If you are a Duke, you do not need to worry about your appearance unless Her Majesty is calling.
    Even almost-modern-day autocrats can share that: when I was a young buy-side analyst the leading stockbroking analyst in my sefctor diverted from his lecture on the financials of a company to mention that he had gone on a factory tour with the executive chairman (also largest shareholder) who saw a machine out of action and a baffled operator so took off his jacket and fixed it (having designed the machine himself he could work out in a few seconds what had gone wrong). Whether the machine operator got a ticking-off later was not revealed but if one is the unquestioned boss there is less need for keeping up appearances.

  26. Guardian ‘investigation’ ‘reveals’ that what its been saying is true

    Quelle surprise!

    I do wonder about the Guardian’s political calibration these days

    For example is Tony Blair centre left, centre or centre right?

    According to momentum he would clearly be centre right

  27. modern-day sociologists would insist her mother, owning and running a confectionary shop and living above made her middle class

    They’d love a chance to liquidate the Kulaks.

  28. “Old Labour used to understand the working man because most of them had served and fought alongside them in WW2 or at least done national service with them. That’s why the had such loyalty.”

    And many people came up from actually being working class, being raised in mining areas. Roy Jenkins’ father was a trade union leader, Kinnock’s father was a miner.

    The end of the industrial trade unions led to Labour focussing on their public sector unions.

  29. starfish said:
    “I do wonder about the Guardian’s political calibration these days. For example is Tony Blair centre left, centre or centre right?”

    Wouldn’t they regard him as a neo-con fascist, verging on far-right?

  30. Remember when the school kids wanted to march against the Iraq war and the government response to that

  31. Worked alongside a hereditary peer years ago. A good lad. But it’s similar to working with someone from a BAME background – at work you’re mates of a sort, but when leaving the office we all go our separate ways.

  32. Labour is an overwhelmingly middle-class party reliant on the votes of a working class most of the senior members of the party would be utterly baffled by, and probably despise in private conversation.

    Brexit may be the issue which breaks the two apart, but in UK politics seismic reorganisation is rare because the voting system punishes it so severely, the inertia is enormous.

  33. Batten’s move to make UKIP “populist” seems to be paying off. I’m not sure the British system will enable that to be electorally significant as on the continent, but it was worth a shot given UKIP’s decline.

  34. >I’m sure this isn’t a new observation, but actual posh people don’t seem to do class hate (the few Old Etonians and minor gentry I’ve met seemed to be bloody nice blokes and comfortable talking to anybody).

    You should come and meet the poshos in the University system. Very different creatures.

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