We know what that was

“This is a difficult time for everyone,” she said. “Passions are running high on all sides of the argument. But we can and must find the compromises to deliver what the British people voted for.”

Leaving last Friday would have fitted that bill, no?

As to the larger stuff, what’s going to be the end deal? Dunno. Never did think any of this would be simple, in that the political classes just didn’t want to do it therefore they’re gyre and gimbal not to.

We, of course, get a chance to tell them what we think of that next election. Which, no doubt, we will.

51 thoughts on “We know what that was”

  1. What’s in a name.

    “no deal Brexit” – No deal??!! sounds like the end of the world. Clocks will stop, birds will fall out of the sky, plague and famine will ensue.

    “leaving on WTO terms” – The same terms that are used for much of world trade. And we keep our £39bn
    oh, OK, not so bad then.

  2. “We, of course, get a chance to tell them what we think of that next election. Which, no doubt, we will.”

    Revenge. Revenge on the batata who stole my democracy. That is all I will be thinking when voting for the next ten years. If the Conservatives can ditch this useless treasonous bitch and get a true Brexiteer, then I’ll vote for them. If they don’t. I will vote for whoever offers Brexit. I will never compromise with the Remainers, on anything, ever.

  3. Well, there are local elections in England and NI in only a handful of weeks, so I guess we’ll see what happens.

  4. I think if Farage could get a Brexit party up and running, he’d win.

    Certainly he’d sweep the May 23 Euro elections, which we weren’t supposed to have to need to hold but now look like we will.

  5. If Brexit is squibbed, voting won’t really mean anything anymore.

    Not just for the UK either, but for the rest of the EU. I think there are lots of people in other countries who will be totally demoralised if even the Brits can’t shake off the shackles. Of course the EU knows that, which is why they’re playing so hard and dirty…

    Sad…

  6. @Ben
    ” Of course the EU knows that, which is why they’re playing so hard and dirty…”

    From across the Irish sea, it doesn’t look like the EU is doing anything, just sitting back and watching the UK parliament destroy itself.

  7. Tim. Question for you. Before the Referendum I asked someone close to the UKIP leadership what the plans for the party were, should the Referendum deliver the result they wanted? You know who I mean. I was told to wait & see. I’m still waiting.
    Did no-one in the party realise that a Leave result would be the start of the matter not the end? That the Brexit process would need shepherding through to it’s conclusion? That was my view at the time. The party could have stood on that platform & gained some seats from the two major parties. It could certainly now be threatening Remainer MPs in vulnerable seats on both sides. This whole sorry mess could have been totally different.
    Why was UKIP so f*****g complacent & turned to contemplating its own navel?

  8. “Of course the EU knows that, which is why they’re playing so hard and dirty…”

    I don’t think they are, in fact. They are looking after their own interests, as they see them, which is fair enough. Its our own side that is stabbing us in the back. We could be fair and gone by now, any economic turbulence well behind us, and a fair wind in our sails, if it wasn’t for the treasonous crowd in Westminster.

  9. Ben S

    If Brexit is squibbed, voting won’t really mean anything anymore.

    I don’t think so.

    Yeah they’re screwing over the referendum result, no doubt, but when they get voted out of their seats at the next GE there’s no getting out of it.

    If anything it might galvanise otherwise apathetic voters at the next GE to go to the polls.

  10. Difficult one to answer because I wasn’t directly involved. But a stab at it. Ukip worked because of Farage. He just wanted out and that was it. Others within the coalition – of course it’s a coalition – wanted other and different things. That’s the way coalitions work. And once that unifying factor – no, not Farage, but Leave – gets over the finish line, as was thought, then the diverse interests break up the coalition.

    I never did think that Ukip had a life past Brexit. A coalition of northern Labour and Southern Tories wasn’t going to work well without that overarching goal.

    Now, as to the fissure opening up too early, agreed. But once that vote was won I don’t think anything would have been able to keep it together.

  11. ” But once that vote was won I don’t think anything would have been able to keep it together.”
    Surely that should have been when Brexit was won?
    It was bloody obvious in the run-up to the Referendum that there was a majority of MP’s, the whole of the Civil Service & Establishment, the banksters, the CBI, the BBC & the rest of the broadcast media, a great slice of the Press, academia, the luvvies & the popsters, you name it, all in the Remain camp. What did they think? They’d be handed Brexit on a f****g plate? The writing was on the wall for this shambles before the Referendum voting papers were printed. Even the government who’d legislated it were shilling for Remain.

  12. It seems to me you could have had a stronger UKIP after the Leave vote, not a disintegrating rabble. The message could have been “We’ve won the right decision now let’s work together to make it reality” The UKIP success in the Euro. Parliament elections showed that was possible. But someone in UKIP needed to be thinking like this when a Leave result was a distant possibility. Or what was the point of UKIP in the first place.
    It’s certainly the way I think. I’ve taken some long shot gambles but I’ve always had a game plan for how to exploit them should they pay off. Or what would be the point of gambling in the first place?

  13. BiS,

    Isn’t the problem that while everyone could get together around the concept of ‘Brexit’ as in gtfo the EU, after that the Leave crowd is pretty disparate: everything from hardcore commies who would nationalise the cornershops to anarco-capitalists who would privatise the courts?

    Remainers, on the other hand seem more vanilla centerists the only difference being are they a mm to the left or a mm to the right of centre. Blair or Cameron.

    So once the referendum was won it’s easy for Leavers to split and Remainers to remain as one???

  14. So can Nigel (don’t they want him to retire) and his Brexit party do it again and get us out? Or is it too late. If they can get all the people like Mervyn King, the ex spy chief (forgot his name) and those talking sensibly about WTO together then I think it has legs, but it’s an uphill struggle.

    Why are the May and the remainers so enthralled by the EC? What’s so good about? All I hear is how bad leaving would be. Is it thirty years of politicking funded by promises of EC jobs or money. Is there a conspiracy of lizard alien overlords in orbit who’ll nuke the planet unless we’re moving towards a global government. Are our politicos scared of actually having to make, take and defend decisions instead of the easy route of rolling over for EC diktats. I’ve never heard this talked about so I’m thinking it’s the money.

  15. I’ve had brief words with those in the new party. They’ve, apparently, 1,100 applications to run for office. People of such astonishingly good qualities that there’s no need for the likes of me to cough up to be supporting the bottom of the ballot paper.

  16. Tim, BiS – I don’t understand why Farage was so eager to resign; surely he of all people knew the referendum result didn’t mean job done?

    UKIP has gone right down the pan without him. I don’t accept the argument that its welcoming Tommy Robinson means it is NF-lite but the leadership seems either stupid or mental or both.

  17. But who are they Tim?
    One of the common threads that runs across politics is the f****g public schoolboy mentality. That there are rules to be played by & observed. That’s what’s gone wrong with Brexit. Leave thought the rules would deliver. They have done. The Establishment writes the rules & Remain used them to prevail. But that’s where the Establishment is vulnerable. It’s of the same mindset. It thinks rules are important. No they’re not. Winners make their own rules after they’ve won.
    I’ve a feeling there’s a very nasty surprise awaiting some people in the not too distant future.

  18. As to UKIP going down the pan- they’ve been picking up 1000 members per month the last year.
    Hopefully Corbyn stitching things up with May will force him to clearly advocate something, rather than just criticise whatever the Tories put up. That will inevitably alienate some section of Labour support.
    BTW is Farage running candidates
    in the locals?

  19. This the thing I don’t get. Britain picks a large chunk of the EU budget yet when our prime minister goes to see them they are treated with contempt. Even if the EU was good for the UK I’d want out because they obviously hate us and will stab us in the back first chance they get.

  20. @Dongguan John
    Yeah, sure. If you leave things to the intellectual political class to manage politics.
    Actually, there’s a whole lot of ordinary people out there who you also couldn’t get a fag paper between on the issues that matter. Some vote left. Some vote right.Because, as you say,there’s little to chose between the major parties & neither represent them. They have much more in common than what separates them at the moment. That’s why the current politicians don’t want to touch the things that matter to them.

  21. @BiS- don’t agree with you on the establishment/public schoolboy obey the rules/play up & play the game argument. The British establishment – ie Remain – does not give a shit about the rules. What we are seeing is every rule about public conduct and every unwritten rule about decent behaviour trampled over to ensure we either stay in the EU or pretend leave in a way which will ensure speedy re-entry.

    I don’t think Leave’s problem is an affliction of public school decency but rather that it is a genuine populist movement with millions of disparate individuals who came together on a particular issue. The Leave movement had one figurehead and a couple of adept schemers but the establishment has – is – a huge machine for getting its own way. They scarcely need to organise, they swarm like bees.

    @Pat – party members mean very little, look at Labour. UKIP needs votes.

  22. Roue de jour

    A big part of that was the negotiating team employed by May. If the UK had prepared properly for no deal and refused to allow the sequencing of the negotiations in the way that the EU wanted the result would have been very different. Instead Olly Robbins gave the EU everything it wanted. Money should always have been made conditional on getting a proper deal and the Irish backstop crushed early.

    If the UK had been intransigent early enough, the entire EU position would have disintegrated as various member states realised their interests were in jeopardy. Instead they’ve stayed in line, because the EU is getting everything they wanted.

    Indeed if the PM had wanted a proper renegotiation in January, she would have fired Olly Robbins and sent a leaver to actually do the renegotiation. Instead he mouthed off that it was his deal or an extension and that his deal would leave the UK in a very weak position.

  23. ” Remain – does not give a shit about the rules. What we are seeing is every rule about public conduct and every unwritten rule about decent behaviour trampled over to ensure we either stay in the EU or pretend leave in a way which will ensure speedy re-entry. ”

    Yes it does. It’s counting on people sticking to the rules & accepting this betrayal lying down.
    Like I say, it could get a nasty surprise

  24. “But we can and must find the compromises to deliver what the British people voted for.” What we voted for was to Leave. No customs union, no ECJ, no overrule by a Brussels-based elite. Dodgy Dave spelt out what Leave meant and got the shock of his life when we took him at his word. The last 3 years have been a desperate effort by the europhile elite to reverse a democratic decision that they, in their hubris, refuse to countenance. No compromise is needed to deliver what we voted for. WTO Brexit fulfils what we voted for nicely.

  25. Pat: I’ve seen generic UKIP leaflets while I’ve been out doing my deliveries, but no Brexit Party stuff, and no local candidate-specific UKIP stuff. In my Conservative-held ward I haven’t even seen any Conservative stuff.

  26. Ironman,

    “Revenge. Revenge on the batata who stole my democracy. That is all I will be thinking when voting for the next ten years.”

    Yeah. That’s how long it’s going to take them to recover as a minimum in many people’s eyes. If they keep fucking it up, they could even get replaced.

    About the only hope for a party leader is Raab. He’s about the only person who can shift right, take on the civil service and start earning trust. But I think they’ll pick Boris (who is useless and untrustworthy).

  27. Gurzel;

    Yeah, it’s odd, what I eventually came up with, after some time, is that the EU structures allow ministers, possibly at quite a junior level, to enjoy the naked exercise of power domestically, without all that tedious dicking about with committees and building agreements. That is, actual politicking.

    Which thought means it is kind of amusing to watch the current sequence of events, as the dumb fucks have basically forgotten how to actually do politics after 40 years.

  28. The big mistake with Leave was assuming that it was a policy rather than a movement. It’s like Democracy movements in non-democratic countries, when challenged “well, what would you do with this foreign ‘democracy’ stuff?” you will naturally get different answers from different people, because it’s a campaign to install a *system*, not a policy, different people would use that system for different things. It’s like demanding that “the” inventor of the computer specify “the” use it would be put to.

  29. The big mistake with Leave was assuming that it was a policy rather than a movement.

    Yarp. However, Continuity Remain is making the same mistake. They seem to think that if they only finagle the Parliamentary votes to get CU/CM2.0/Revocation/2ndRef, Brexit will go away like the defeated monster at the end of a scary film.

    I think it’s more like a non-violent version of the Yellow Vests – a popular expression of discontent with the status quo that may ebb and flow in the short term, but will only intensify in the longer term because the fundamentals aren’t being addressed.

  30. The case for remaining is fairly straightforward:

    The UK does a lot of business with the continent. The Single market /Customs area simplifies this. It comes with obligations, but overall it boosts the economy. (even after adjusting for per capita).

    Leaving means the UK will do less business with the continent due to non-tariff barriers and will result in less investment in stuff to export to the continent.

    What about a hard brexit?

    Would a hard Brexit result in a major collapse? no, because no rational investor is going to write off hundred of millions in investment – it’s just going to require a bit more work to do the transactions.

    in the medium term the UK economy will be smaller because some investment will not take place due to increased barriers to trade with the EU, less increased investment based on not being part of the EU (no more EU barriers to doing trade in lots of goods). Overall negative. Not by much – especially since some of the estimates dishonestly use overall GDP, which includes lots of migrants. Still GDP per capital over a 10-15 year period post a hard Brexit, most likely 3-5% lower than if we had stayed in.

    Many people would happily pay this price for leaving. It is likely to be good for the bottom third (ish) of the population who compete for jobs and government resources with EU migrants. Bad for those who benefit from lower labour costs (eg the elite).

    bad arguments for staying:

    1) We won’t be able to find workers for NHS (other important jobs) if we leave. ANS: Issue visas for people we need.
    2) The bottom third will be worse off because government revenues will be lower (or the NHS won’t function because no more EU migrants – see 1 above). ANS: Scale of decline will be tiny over ten years revenues will be down by maybe the difference in GDP eg 3-5%.
    3) We did not know what would happen. ANS According to Osborne and the remainers leaving meant leaving the single market, customs union and an instant recession. People were told.

    Bad reasons for leaving:

    1) The EU will eventually implode and the UK just needs to leave. ANS: No, the UK will still be impacted by a collapse in the Euro since it will still do a lot of business with this geographically proximate major trading partner. The UK will not bear as much of the direct costs – paying for bailouts, but will take the far larger indirect cost – recession on the continent, directly.
    2) We will be able to trade more with others, which will make up for leaving the EU. ANS: The EU is really close and is always going to be a major trading partner. At the margin there may be some positives, but it will be less than the cost of leaving the single market.

  31. Ducky McDuckface

    So they pay themselves well to do the implementing power bit without deciding anything and do away with the politicking. That is worth destroying their party and pissing on democracy? Still doesn’t quite add up to me. It does explain why they are a shit at the politics and governing bit though.

  32. Ken,
    Not only May but also Cameron before her, and yet they still support the EU even while the piss is running down their necks. Inexplicable.

  33. Ken
    Yes, the Treasury (the architects of Project Fear Mk I, we’re now on, what, Mk XXIVc?) estimate the ‘cost’ of a WTO Brexit as 0.8% pa reduction in GDP (for the next 15 years, as though nothing else is going to change in that time, and they were capable of predicting GDP to 5 significant figures over a 15 week, let alone 15 year, period). Which is really (if you believe them) a reduction in the rate of growth of 0.8% pa, which is going to terrify absolutely nobody at all.

    If I may quibble, you give as a bad reason for leaving:
    1) The EU will eventually implode and the UK just needs to leave. ANS: No, the UK will still be impacted by a collapse in the Euro since it will still do a lot of business with this geographically proximate major trading partner.

    But euro-collapse will take place whether or not we leave, unless you believe that by staying in we could somehow prevent it? I think the impact on the UK will be lessened if we’re no longer members.

  34. @Gurzel

    I don’t think this is why the remainers are in favour of staying in. The fact that they are part of the supranational entity probably has some private benefits – and as I noted above has some economic benefits. But the vehemence with which remain is supported suggests that it is part of their identity – being part of the EU is a “good thing” – the EU prevents war on the continent, it is a fount of wisdom. If one believes Mr Ecks, it’s part of the global elite’s plan to do in the native population.

    I find it odd. My basic view of the EU is it is a good thing economically for the UK. Migration is good for me, but possibly unpleasant for the poor. I also think the EU, and specifically the Euro, are bad – the economic damage wrought by the single currency on the southern periphery was foreseeable, foreseen, and to a great extent, embraced by the elites who run the EU. They see crises as a way of ratcheting the “project” forward. Ditto the migrant “crisis”, which was levered by the EU to demand more power.

    The word to describe these people is “Tranzi”

  35. Ducky McDuckface, you remind me . . . .

    When Boaty McBoatface won, and they DIDN’T USE IT, I knew democracy was dead in the UK.

  36. When Boaty McBoatface won, and they DIDN’T USE IT, I knew democracy was dead in the UK.

    That was an Internet vote – gamed just as much as the “Repeal Article 50” petition. Very different from 17.5 million actually turning out to real voting booths and marking their X.

  37. @GurzelWummage April 3, 2019 at 10:56 am

    Are our politicos scared of actually having to make, take and defend decisions instead of the easy route of rolling over for EC diktats.

    That has been my belief for years – power, status, money and no difficult decisions or responsibility

    One of my hopes for Brexit is MPs will be busy with real issues and have no time for petty matters like upskirting and hate crimes.

  38. @Roué le Jour April 3, 2019 at 12:11 pm

    “EU obviously hate us and will stab us in the back first chance they get”

    That has been true since day we joined Common Market; we’re like the rich kid bribing others to be “our friends”.

  39. I disagree. Democracy is a core value of Western Civilization. If you have a vote, you must abide by it.

    Democracy is vastly more important than the name of the boat. They should have named it Boaty McBoatface, and have been proud of it. Because democracy.

    Mrs. May isn’t just being treasonous over Brexit. She has taken it beyond: she has rejected democracy. That is a crime against humanity. Democracy is vastly more important than Leave/Remain. This is more than Brexit: Western Civilization hangs in the balance.

  40. Stevem

    “Yarp. However, Continuity Remain is making the same mistake. They seem to think that if they only finagle the Parliamentary votes to get CU/CM2.0/Revocation/2ndRef, Brexit will go away like the defeated monster at the end of a scary film.”

    I heard on the rumour mill that some Conservative associations have given up on working the local elections. A lot of volunteers have told the party to fuck off, and the ones that are left knocking on doors are finding the voters telling them to fuck off. My guess is that the defeat for the Conservatives is going to be epic.

  41. BoM4 – My guess is that the defeat for the Conservatives is going to be epic

    That’s my spidey sense too. It doesn’t take that much of a % shift in voter support to cause a landslide or a rout, and they’ve completely alienated their own base.

    The Conservative brand is now somewhere between Ratners and rat droppings in the value stakes. It’s going to be a democratic massacre.

  42. “Are our politicos scared of actually having to make, take and defend decisions instead of the easy route of rolling over for EC diktats.”

    Yes, thats a very good point. The old adage is ‘To govern is to choose’, yet the modern politician has to choose nothing, because he (or she) has farmed out all the decision making processes to others. Upwards to the EU and other supra-national bodies, and sideways and downwards to the quango State and the BoE. MPs are now harlots – power with no responsibility whatsoever. Everything is plausibly deniable – ‘EU directive, we can’t do anything about it’, or ‘We don’t get involved in operational matters of independent administrative bodies’, or ‘The BoE is operationally independent’ etc etc.

  43. Are our politicos scared of actually having to make, take and defend decisions instead of the easy route of rolling over for EC diktats.

    To quote Dennis in It’s Always Sunny… “I didn’t actually want any power; just the illusion of power. And the puss”

  44. “because he (or she) has farmed out all the decision making processes to others”

    It’s happened in the U.S. as well. Congress has created 615 federal agencies to handle everything, including regulation. So Congress critters have plausible denial that the mess in DC isn’t their fault.

    We need to get rid of about 600 of these agencies. Few have any basis in the Constitution.

  45. Yes a Tory wipeout and bad news for ZaNu too–as Jizz’s double betrayal ill sits with half his voters. UKIP stands for what LOTS of white working class want–massively reduced immigrants. Whereas Jizz wants 10 million more so he can never be voted out. A GE with the two worst leaders ever both trying to sell treason to the British people is a huge joke. VOTE UKIP–even if only one time. They will achieve a proper Brexit and if they do nothing else right that will do. They cannot be worse than this shambles.You can always vote them out again and they’ll go. JIZZ FUCKING WON’T.

  46. Bloke in North Dorset

    “Yes, thats a very good point. The old adage is ‘To govern is to choose’, yet the modern politician has to choose nothing, because he (or she) has farmed out all the decision making processes to others. Upwards to the EU …..”

    That was my clinching argument. As I said at the time, I don’t care if politicians pass every law that the EU passes*, I want them to stand by and defend them.

    *Well, obviously I do as some will be idiotic, but I’m sure the point is understood in the spirit it’s meant.

  47. @Gamecock April 3, 2019 at 7:55 pm

    Mrs. May isn’t just being treasonous over Brexit. She has taken it beyond: she has rejected democracy. That is a crime against humanity. Democracy is vastly more important than Leave/Remain. This is more than Brexit: Western Civilization hangs in the balance.

    +1 Spot on.

  48. @Bloke on M4 April 3, 2019 at 8:19 pm

    The PM’s furious backbenchers are demanding a new vote to throw Mrs May out of No 10 – with up to 100 of her rank-and-file MPs said to be considering going on strike and abstaining in all Commons votes.

    And scores of grassroots Tory members have been cutting up their membership cards in protest at Mrs May’s Brexit olive branch to Mr Corbyn.

    .
    Furious man in Leave-voting Somerset slams door in Tory council candidate’s face on BBC breakfast radio

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