Seems fair enough to me to be honest

A passage from employment judge James Tayler’s ruling explained it perfectly: “The claimant is absolutist in her view of sex and it is a core component of her belief that she will refer to a person by the sex she considered appropriate even if it violates their dignity and/or creates an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment.” Forstater, in her witness statement, more or less confirmed this: It “may be polite,” she acknowledged, to use a person’s preferred pronouns, “but there is no fundamental right to compel people to be polite or kind in every situation.”

After all, a gentleman – or, I presume, a gentlewoman – is only one who never unintentionally insults.

Forstater’s claim about protected belief was just a smokescreen for her underlying bigotry, and Tayler saw through it. “It is also a slight of hand to suggest that the Claimant merely does not hold the belief that transwomen are women,” he wrote in his judgment. “She positively believes that they are men; and will say so whenever she wishes.” The case, then, wasn’t so much about belief as it was about actions.

So that’s freedom of speech chucked out then, isn’t it?

42 thoughts on “Seems fair enough to me to be honest”

  1. Things get difficult when a judge can decide what you believe and punish you for them. I suppose Lady Hale would approve of this kind of ruling.

  2. The background
    as a tax policy researcher for the Centre for Global Development. In 2018, she began publicly campaigning, mostly on social media, against reforms to the Gender Recognition Act that would allow trans people in the United Kingdom to self-identify their gender. In response to concern from her colleagues, her employer’s human resources department warned her that others might find her anti-trans tweets “offensive and exclusionary,” and eventually declined to renew her contract.

    So much for “action” not “belief”. The only action I can see here is firing her. No one had a catfight in the office kitchenette, HR couldn’t name any person who would take offence, where’s the beef.
    And Judgie yeronor, if you must use pompous and old fashioned metaphors you might take the trouble to fucking spell them right, knowhadImean?

  3. This is an argument over what pronouns to use when talking about somebody in the third person. It seems illogical, futile and stupid for me to dictate what words you should use when talking about me – it’s your language and your usage. Do I have to use your preferred xe/xir/xis when talking about you in French, too? Or Finnish (which I think does not have different pronouns for male and female anyway)?

    I think a nice trick would be to insist that my preferred pronouns are I/me/my. If you then want to say that “AGN is a transphobic f*ckwit” but using my preferred pronoun instead of AGN, all sorts of delicious confusion could result. Conversely, if you don’t, you are committing a hate crime, right?

  4. she will refer to a person by the sex she considered appropriate even if it violates their dignity

    Implying it’s possible for other people to violate the dignity of trannies more than they do to themselves.

    I was reading about a young (24 year old) trap who killed himself a couple of days ago. The trans cult is portraying it as yet another stunning-and-brave transwoman tragically cyberbullied to death by GamerGate and/or J.K. Rowling, but as usual, that’s lies.

    He admitted to being consumed by autogynephilia from a distressingly young age, thanks to internet porn, and tried to make himself look like an UwU anime fetish girl IRL. He knew exactly what to say to the doctors in order to get prescribed puberty blockers and then hormones – the usual “I’m a lady trapped in a male body” bullshit.

    Several surgeries later, his genitals were completely destroyed and he lived in constant, terrible pain. His sex drive and autogynephilia disappeared when he lost his cock and balls, so all he was left to look forward to was a lifetime of suffering and regret.

    His name was Roman Bryant Creveling, and if only the people around him had cared enough to “violate the dignity” of his fetish, instead of encouraging and facilitating it, he might be a healthy young man looking forward to his 25th birthday. Instead, his parents are burying the mangled body of their son.

    Tolerance kills. We mock because we care.

  5. Yes, free speech is chucked out, gone. Already was, of course, but this pisses on its grave as a useful reminder.

    Also a useful reminder that the left still own the government no matter what you vote.

  6. Philip: And Judgie yeronor, if you must use pompous and old fashioned metaphors you might take the trouble to fucking spell them right

    Did Judge Tayler really write what is attributed to him within quote marks? If so he is slight of brain and is in all likelihood unaware of the distinction.

  7. The judge is an idiot. She has said precisely what Jorden Peterson said – I will be polite and use preferred pronous in order to be so, but I will not be compelled. Fuck me, but you have to be terminally thick if you can’t grasp that one.

  8. Yes, it does indeed look as though Tayler thinks that Forstater takes a small size in gloves – it’s there in the closing para, §93, of his judgement.

  9. Tommy Cooper: On the night in question I was as drunk as a judge.
    Judge: The expression is as sober as a judge, as drunk as a lord.
    Cooper: Yes, m”lud!

  10. Freedom of speech was roadkill years ago.

    But then, remember, before Andrea’s Whitham Smith and the BBFC, we were blessed with a Lord Chamberlain to concern himself with these matters on our behalf.

    With possible rare, periodic exceptions, I’m not sure we’ve ever had free speech in England.

  11. M’Lud, I contend that we have always had free speech for those willing to accept the consequences – which were a bloody nose or a slapped face in my youth, a challenge to a duel in Georgian or Victorian England, burning at the stake in the mid-sixteenth century, physical attack by the offended person (or her husband) in previous centuries, imprisonment frequently …..
    What is different today is that licence to abuse others is proclaimed to be “free speech” while unfashionable free speech is persecuted (no, I do not mean just prosecuted).

  12. “She positively believes that they are men… ”

    Isn’t one of the major prerequisites to being a transwoman, is that you are a man?

  13. john77, I’d need more persuading that free speech is characterised by saying what you like then being burned at the stake…

  14. In English, there is the neuter gender, for which the pronoun is ‘it’. Surely having testicles amputated, penis inverted and fake breasts developed is neutering in an extreme sense. Hence, a “Transwoman” is ‘it’.

  15. Atgnat: Forstater takes a small size in gloves

    …suggests she’s slight of hand but since anything can now mean anything and urban QCs in kimonos bludgeon foxes, any louche construction that works for you is perfectly peachy.

  16. Diogenes
    December 31, 2019 at 11:58 am
    Things get difficult when a judge can decide what you believe and punish you for them. I suppose Lady Hale would approve of this kind of ruling.
    ==============================================
    But Ms. Forstater has been punished for stating scientific fact. The Judge has ruled that belief now trumps fact.

    Quite where that leads us to I would rather not ponder.

  17. Witchie
    December 31, 2019 at 5:06 pm
    In English, there is the neuter gender, for which the pronoun is ‘it’. Surely having testicles amputated, penis inverted and fake breasts developed is neutering in an extreme sense. Hence, a “Transwoman” is ‘it’.
    =====================================================
    Nope.

    It is chromosomes that define your sex. Intersex may have muddled genitals – but they are still either XX or YY.

  18. @Steve

    Gruesome

    Background on Remilia/Maria
    https://kiwifarms.net/threads/remilia-maria-creveling-roman-bryant-creveling.64566/page-4#post-5786223

    Maria “Remilia” Creveling was a professional League of Legends player and livestreamer. They died on December 27th, 2019 from drug overdose. In their last livestream three days prior to death, they detailed their last Christmas encounter with their family.

    https://kiwifarms.net/threads/remilia-maria-creveling-roman-bryant-creveling.64566/post-5785458
    https://no-cookie.kiwifarms.net/data/video/1073/1073949-6269b47ae7da26cf9cb3e8cc83ad943d.mp4

  19. M’lud
    At least we haven’t crucified people for it – whereas torture and death for speaking truth has been standard in communist states 9and still is in North Korea). Freedom that includes free speech includes freedom to punch the nose of the guy who insults your wife – otherwise it is licence to insult.

  20. On a cheerier note

    Bercow’s Gone, Hallelujah

    London will ring in the New Year with Big Ben for the first time since its restoration began in 2017 – despite Brexit

  21. Freedoms of speech is the right to say what you think – but not without consequences.

    As many celebrities, politicians, journalists and bloggers have found to their cost in the last few years…….

  22. Freedoms of speech is the right to say what you think – but not without consequences.

    Freedom of speech is the freedom to speak freely without the state prosecuting you for doing so.

  23. @ Longrider
    That is one definition, but there are others.
    My wife considers herself enlightened in that she accepts that I shall answer her questions honestly.

  24. Revisiting 1999

    The white elephant that turned into a gold mine: Twenty years after its dismal opening night, how the Millennium Dome became a monument to the triumph of populism over Tony Blair’s epic vacuity

    “Twenty years on, the lesson could not be clearer: the many will decide what the many want, thanks very much — not the few”

  25. Well, everything has consequences. On the whole, actions moreso than words. Or, perhaps more properly, there’s no need for words to have consequences unless we subscribe to notions of “triggering”.

    But I confess I find all this talk of talk and “consequences” somewhat sinister.

    “Nice little belief in freedom of speech you’ve got there. Be a shame if something were to happen to it”.

  26. How many more tonight?

    Murders London 2019

    …and it’s never the murder’s fault say Left and SadDick Khant

    Not sure why Youth Centres bit at end (keep drug dealing & murders off streets?), ask the Kiwi who made vid

  27. We need some more trolling stickers:

    “Sperm is not a social construct”.

    Happy new year to all, in fact, may the next decade be even more awesome for everyone here than the last.

  28. 31 days to go! Then another 11 months of argy-bargy before, hopefully, we really are out in all respects.

    Happy New Year to all. It’s going to be good!

  29. Due to time differences, it’s still not New Yah here, and there’s till some Calvados left…

    But in any case, happy New Year to all!

  30. Bloke in Costa Rica

    Pcar: I wonder what percentage of those 147-ish homicides were NHI? A pretty hefty chunk, I’m guessing.

  31. “It is chromosomes that define your sex. Intersex may have muddled genitals – but they are still either XX or YY.”

    Actually they aren’t, there’s the quite common XXX and XYY (remember the XYY Man TV show ?) and some complex chromosomes. However most of them are clearly still male or female. There are a tiny few who are almost “don’t know” and are assigned a sex by a specialist.

    This of course has nothing to do with the loonies.

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