Second, to argue that to deny the people of Scotland a vote is to uphold democracy is absolutely absurd: it is very obviously the opposite of that.
For having a referendum on leaving the EU was something that should not have happened.
And the bizarre thing is that any thinking person knows that he is on the wrong side of history here. Scotland cannot be held in a Union against its will forever. And the more that Union is imposed the greater the will to leave will be.
Hmmm
ACKSHUALLY, democracy means ignoring the results of the Scottish and Brexit referenda and getting people to vote again and again until they make the right decision.
Scotland cannot be held in a Union against its will forever
Well, this goes for any country, right? Including England, despite the best efforts of Remainers.
But there’s no reason to believe Scotland is locked up in the UK’s sex dungeon against its will, and being part of the union means taking into account the interests of England, Wales and NornIron not to have their lives continually disrupted by neverendums.
A referendum denied is probably the best outcome for the SNP – lets them continue to stoke anti-English grievance without the painful risk associated with having to explain what Brexit means for their flagship policy (it’s deid)
It being obvious that a newly independent Scotland would be governed by the SNP, the best the SNP can do to promote independence would be to demonstrate their brilliance at running Holyrood.
So how’s that coming along then?
The best (Not really) thing to do would be to grant them a referendum, but it has to be UK wide.
“Should Scotland be part of the United Kingdom?” asked to everyone in England, Wales, Scotland and N.Ireland.
Would be funny when they vote to stay but every other nation, fed up with the constant bitching, tells them to F.Off. Then they’d get independence good and hard.
No second referendum thanks. Let’s just wait and see how the Salmond court case goes, and how involved sturgeon is in that. A decent result for SNP at the 2021 Holyrood elections will make things pretty difficult though.
All he has to do is hold the line until we’re really and truly out of the EU, then they can go off and be “independent” if they want to (clue: they don’t want to, they plan to run straight back to Brussels), and the entire ghastly nightmare of a hard border between England and Scotland then becomes the Jocks’ problem and not Boris’. Result!
(And fwiw I reckon the EU will bend their rules to let Scotland straight back in, no questions asked. They’ll do this because (a) rules matter but the advancement of the “project” matters more and (b) anything to spite the UK.)
Next time a government passes a bill for a referendum, it should include a clause saying there will be no repeat within 10 years, with the courts to decide whether a proposed new question is essentially the same as the old one.
Naturally that would be another reason to depoliticise the Supreme Court.
No second referendum thanks.
Third!
“A decent result for SNP at the 2021 Holyrood elections will make things pretty difficult though.”
OK, the 2022 referendum question will be: “Do you want your constituency to leave the UK and form part of an independent Scotland?” That way there’s a fair chance that all the Border constituencies would vote to stay in the UK and perhaps Orkney and Shetland too. Has anyone here got a map of the way the constituencies voted last time? If enough constituencies seceded from Scotland you might end up with still having quite a considerable Scots Law jurisdiction within the UK.
Hell, you could hold that referendum in Cumbria, if you wanted to, marking the maximum historical extent of the Scottish realm. Also you could hold a referendum for Berwick-upon-Tweed and its immediate surroundings, which were Scottish for ages. Indeed, go the whole hog: hold a referendum on the Isle of Man so that it can confirm that it has no desire to rejoin Scotland and is perfectly happy with its present constitutional arrangements.
Or, or, or: also hold a vote in Norniron asking whether any constituency would like to secede and join (a) The Republic, or (b) Scotland, or (c) England and Wales, or instead would they like to remain part of a Norniron that remains a distinct province within the UK. While you’re at it hold a Welsh referendum asking … oh, I dunno: “Do you feel left out? Would you like a referendum on something or other?”
@Chernyy_Drakon
+1 to UK wide referendum on the Porridge Wogs leaving. All Wee Krankie wants is to get more from the Barnett Formula to hide the incompetence of the SNP in government there. Once told to Fuck Off they won’t be getting anything from us.
Dearie Me,
There’s a map of results by council area on the wiki article. Going by 2014 results the new Republic of Scotland would be North Lanarkshire, Glasgow, West Dunbartonshire and Dundee.
I think everyone could live with that. Maybe end up with a wee wall around Dundee as an added benefit.
The main reason for not allowing indyref 2 is that we all know they’ll vote to stay on the tit. The SNP just uses the independence movement to shore up its tartan GDR with English funding. Krankie would shit herself if she achieved independence.
(And fwiw I reckon the EU will bend their rules to let Scotland straight back in, no questions asked. They’ll do this because (a) rules matter but the advancement of the “project” matters more and (b) anything to spite the UK.)
The Spanish will have a lot to say about that, although no doubt they can be bribed using German tax payer’s money.
As always politicians playing fast an loose. Although I haven’t gone off to find examples and fairly certain I remember a number of SNP spokeswoman and women saying that the GE is about Brexit and a vote for them wouldn’t be taken as a vote for independence.
That said, if they want a referendum then get on with it, but as a quid pro quo I want the West Lothian question answered and the number of MPs equalised:
This is all a bit irrelevant though, since Wee Jimmy Krankie and her band of demented porridge wogs might hold the majority in Scotland, a majority AGAINST independence still exists and isn’t being expanded any by SNP incompetence.
If the SNP actually wanted independence, then they’d be busy trying to balance the books and reduce the Scottish budget deficit (currently running around £9 billion a year) to make independence at least fiscally possible. The fact that they are pissing vast amounts of money away (provided by Westminster) demonstrates that they just want a stick to beat the Tories with.
So, yeah. Wee Jimmy Krankie’s continuous demands for Independence are little more than a charade. You know it, I know it, she knows it. For all his bluff and bluster, even Boris knows it.
@BiA: thanks. So the bits that voted for independence are the bits with a large population of Oirish. Do we therefore conclude that echt Scots are cool on the idea of independence? I think we do. Then assuming the same results next time:
the bits that should be obliged, oops, permitted, to secede have access to the sea so they would not strictly be enclaves within the part of Scotland that remained in the UK. Obviously that latter area would keep monopoly use of the name Scotland. The seceding bits could call themselves something else: how about “Alba”?
It would a be a noble gesture by the UK to give this new mini-state generous access to the Crinan and Caledonian canals, so that its mini-navy could scoot to and fro between West Alba and East Alba.
Shorn of Alba, Scotland might be a decently prosperous country.
I’m in favour of the SNP getting a new referendum done.
Of course, there would then be a case for particular areas splitting off from Edinburgh using the exact same arguments.
So the SNP may struggle with defence, with its benefits, with its passports etc.
Just think about all that lovely real estate that becomes available when the UK military goes south of the border.
I’d welcome a vote on this. Jimmy Krankie should be encouraging English independence. All the best Scots come South anyway.
Given the grievances stoked in the England and Scotland best get rid of them now.
Oi! Berenicia went all the way down to the Humber. If Carlise gets a vote, I want a vote as well.
@Peter MacFarlane
I imagine Brussels would bend every rule to let Scotland join. Their stumbling block is Spain, Italy and perhaps France and Germany saying No as all have states wanting to secede
Talking of EU
National Symbols Are Now Banned
They’ve banned national flags and next will come national anthems, why not just stop the pretence and ban MEPs too?
@dearieme
Simplified:
Glasgow/Strathclyde on West voted Leave UK as did Dundee on East; most of rest voted Stay in UK
@Bloke in Aberdeen +1
Boris should offer the Scottish parliament full control of domestic policy plus full tax raising powers to pay for it (i.e. no Barnett formula or any other subsidies) AND a reduction in Scottish MP’s of say 75%
The reaction from the SNP would be hysterical!
As I have posted elsewhere:- Page 60, Scottish Yes to Independence campaign:-
“If we remain in the UK, the Conservative party’s promise of an in/out referendum on EU membership raises the serious possibility that Scotland will be forced to leave the EU against the wishes of the people of Scotland”.
Despite what the SNP (including the extremely irritating, pompous buffoon, Blackwood) claims, the result of the 2016 EU referendum changes nothing because the Scots knew exactly what they were voting for didn’t they….