Could be a connection here, could be…..

It has been called the “Minnesota paradox”. The Twin Cities, comprising the conjoined urban areas of Minneapolis and St Paul, regularly tops the list of places in the US with the best quality of living.

Largely low rise and sprawling, set around the cities’ lakes and the Mississippi, the area is marked by affordable and largely good quality housing with lawns, parks, museums and tree-lined streets.

Its politics too have long reflected a strong progressive strand, represented by figures such as the late senator Paul Wellstone, once described as the most liberal member of the Senate. Employment – pre-pandemic, at least – was high, and St Paul serves as the global headquarters for 3M.

But there is another side to living in Minnesota, often ignored. Factor in the black and ethnic minority experience, and the state is suddenly not such a good place to live.

Perhaps being ruled by liberal progressives ain’t all that much of a good thing for blacks and ethnic minorities?

Given that most cities are run by Democrats – which is the only place you’ll find liberal progressives – and that cities are where the black and ethnic minority experience is totally shit there could be something to this. If we were to use that scientific method of analysis, calculating by outcome instead of intention.

116 thoughts on “Could be a connection here, could be…..”

  1. It’s tough for Guardianistas to draw connections. Everything is either linked to climate change or Trump or Brexit. With an analytical toolkit this sophisticated, reality is a constant puzzle

  2. Perhaps being ruled by liberal progressives ain’t all that much of a good thing for blacks and ethnic minorities?

    Yes it’s the ‘liberal progressives’ that are the problem. If it wasn’t for them Somalia could be just like Denmark. Shakes head….

  3. @ Jonathan

    “Yes it’s the ‘liberal progressives’ that are the problem. If it wasn’t for them Somalia could be just like Denmark. Shakes head….”

    So, it’s just the fact they are black then in common?

  4. Isn’t Minneapolis the place that’s been ’enriched’ by a metric ton of Somali immigration over the last few years? Or am I thiking of somewhere else?

  5. We have problems associated with racism ..answer get more bigots in…well no-one could accuse you of going with the herd Tim. Race in America is a singular problem and unpicking the knot is beyond me.I take comfort in those tales that remind everyone of common humanity in all its flawed and contradictory glory.
    If you have never seen this sketch Chris Rock nails it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3PJF0YE-x4&list=FLKDq0fJF6riv-v1wM_AJNPQ&index=274

    Problem – Black Americans are the heirs to historic cruelty injustice and every kind of disadvantage ….but that does not mean that particular arsehole can steal my car.

    Just keep working away at it I ‘spose

  6. Unzipping your flies is beyond you Facepaint. Your idiot opinions disgrace all the other idiots. Fuck off to your precious EU while you still can.

  7. A lot of space could be saved in these articles if they just remembered that black people are disproportionately poor, and all of the unpleasantness that they list (income, health, unemployment, education, drug & alcohol abuse, family breakdown) go along with being poor.

    The fact that gov’t policies destroyed black families over the past 50 years is one massive elephant in the room.

  8. Dear Diogenes, you forgot to add Cummings to your list.

    And Dear Julia, there isn’t a metric ton. There’s a metric tonne or an Imperial ton.

    Pedant of the day award, please.

  9. There are blacks in America who refuse to be victims, refuse to see that (institutional) racism is the reason for all their problems and don’t have chips or blocks on the shoulders. Most of the issues boil down to absent fathers. 70% of blacks are born with no father in the household, out of wedlock.

  10. ‘But there is another side to living in Minnesota, often ignored. Factor in the black and ethnic minority experience, and the state is suddenly not such a good place to live.’

    And they are killed by cops. So why are they there?

    ‘Minnesota’s black education and employment outcomes by US national standards have long been dismal in comparison with those of the state’s Asian population.’

    Fixed it.

    Beaumont provides no explanation for the different ‘outcomes.’ That whites do better than blacks is not news. Note that Asians and Hispanics do better than blacks, too. In other words, his trying to make it racial falls flat on its face.

    But the Leftards reading the Guardian will think, “Oh, yeah, that’s right!”

    American Leftards will also nod in agreement.

  11. Esteban,

    “A lot of space could be saved in these articles if they just remembered that black people are disproportionately poor, and all of the unpleasantness that they list (income, health, unemployment, education, drug & alcohol abuse, family breakdown) go along with being poor.

    The fact that gov’t policies destroyed black families over the past 50 years is one massive elephant in the room.”

    Meanwhile, there’s a load of Vietnamese people who got off a boat in nothing but their shoes 40 years ago who have been very successful. See also: the success of Ugandan Asians and Indians in the UK.

    There are plenty of black people in the UK who worked hard, raised their kids well and became successful. One of my neighbours is a black guy and not a criminal, not spawning a load of bastards. Works huge numbers of hours. Why can’t the kids in inner city London that beat up the cops be like him? What’s their excuse?

  12. “Race in America is a singular problem”

    At least black Americans can become citizens.

    Liberia only allows persons of Black African origin to become a citizen. Can you imagine the howls of protest if somewhere like Estonia only allowed white Europeans to become citizens? Guardianistas would be hurling pots of free range yoghurt at the Estonian embassy.

    But as only white people are racist, Liberia gets a free pass from the left on this.

  13. “What’s their excuse?”

    Whitey.

    Leftist politicians feed black personality disorder – all their problems are someone else’s fault.

  14. I remember the Vietnam boat people in the 70’s and I don’t think they ever claimed many benefits, unlike the Somalis who arrived to Finland in the early 90’s. Some streets in east Helsinki are called Mogadishu avenues. There’s also a concept of public space in Finland, this means all the shopping centres. Populated by these vile people, involved in crime and all kinds of bad behaviour. But they have their right to loiter, it’s a free country innit? Yep, that is how I became a racist, I realised we’re all different, some are better, some are worse, some are low-life.

  15. Gamecock,

    I suspect this problem would go away very quickly if we cut benefits, made life uncomfortable for mothers spawning unsupported bastards. Low income women might change their dating preferences towards good breadwinners.

  16. Oh, a storm is threat’ning
    My very life today
    If I don’t get some shelter
    Oh yeah, I’m gonna fade away

  17. “American ‘conservatives’ will also nod in agreement.”

    Unfortunately, for most you are correct.

    True, Bloke on M4. The incentives in place are ALL WRONG.

  18. One recent Minnesota police shooting which was not mentioned in the Guardian article was that of the white Justine Diamond who was killed by the not white Officer Mohamed Noor.

    Officer Noor was subsequently found guilty of third degree murder and received a sentence, 12.5 years, which seems remarkably lenient by US standards. Somehow I doubt if George Floyd’s killers will get off so lightly.

  19. “There are plenty of black people in the UK who worked hard, raised their kids well and became successful…….”

    And for far too many other blacks, these would be “uncle Tom’s”, “House n*ggers” or “too white(!)”.

    Why they take this attitude I neither know nor care. And if somebody “BAME” (but more likely a sad and cuckolded white) were to try and lay it on me I doubt if I would even dignify them with a reply.

  20. Note the tribalism. A group member (not a person!) is killed in apparent* negligent homicide by a police officer. So the group members pore out in the street. Media eggs them on.

    Whites, asians, and hispanics wouldn’t do it. They’d insist on an investigation, but they’d remain civil.

    In a two-step process, once you have the mob-in-the-street, thugs realize they have herd immunity, and start rioting and looting stores.

    *The officer involved may produce a police manual which describes what to do in the situation he was in. HE MAY HAVE BEEN FOLLOWING PROCEDURE! We don’t know yet.

  21. @ Bloke on the M4
    Your comment illustrates the importance of class: the Vietnamese boat people who fled the Viet Cong were middle class, as were the Ugandan Asians, with a middle-class work ethic [all practising Hindus, except Brahmins, have a work ethic]. The Vietnamese and Ugandan Asians were leaving their former countries where dictators were stealing all their physical and monetary wealth with just their non-material wealth in the form of character and education. The latter was, in most (“many” is provable, most is highly probable) cases, worth more than the former.

  22. How come all the ‘racists’ appear to have been right all along?

    You need to add THATCHER to the list.

  23. “Low income women might change their dating preferences towards good breadwinners.”

    Have you never heard of assortative mating. A good breadwinner is unlikely to select a lazy tart who puts it about as his future wife.

  24. Bloke in North Dorset

    Gamecock,

    If that procedure had been in the manual we’d have seen it before and the cops’ union would have been screaming it from every roof top.

  25. Btw, the cop looks to be dodgy af.

    Apparently he knew the guy he murdered – they both worked security at a nightclub.

    He also has a holiday home in Florida.

    What kind of policeman moonlights at nightclubs and has enough spare cash to own a holiday home in Orlando?

    The drug dealing kind, probably.

  26. To complicate things further, Jamaicans in US do significantly better than Jamaicans in UK. Colin Powell is first generation immigrant Jamaican, for example.

  27. Dennis, Yet Again

    A former police chief of a large metropolitan police force once wrote that at any given time 15% of that police force is unqualified and needed to be replaced immediately. Unfortunately, police unions often make the removed of the unqualified nearly impossible. In Broward County, the police union managed to get the first responding deputy sheriff – who hid behind a car while students were being massacred at Parkland – reinstated with back pay. So the unqualified continue on until you have something like the Floyd murder. This brings on a second, and less obvious problem, which is the quality of leadership within police forces. If true leadership is effectively neutered by union power, then who would actually want the leadership role? The careerist. The present police chief of Minneapolis is Medaria Arradondo. How did Arradondo get the job? Well, Minneapolis fired police chief Janee Harteau because an unqualified police officer (Mohammed Noor) shot an innocent civilian to death back in 2017.

    The murder of George Floyd isn’t an isolated incident. It is the second murder of a civilian by a Minneapolis police officer in less than three years. Race isn’t the actual issue here. We have a white civilian murdered by a black officer and a black civilian murdered by a white officer. In both cases the officers in question had a history that strongly suggested (to put it mildly) that they were not qualified to be police officers. The actual issue here is the inability to hold police officers accountable for the quality of their policing, and therefore the inability to raise the quality of policing within the police force as a whole.

  28. Philip: to take it further, Jamaican immigrants in the UK in the 1950s seem to have done better than their decendants today. It seems to be *first* *generation* minorities do better.

    Additionally, before recently the majority of immigration to Britain was of overseas British citizens who saw themselves as British and came to the mother country to be British.

  29. Blacks have moving out of the northern states (and California), most of which are blue states, and have been heading south for decades, suggesting that the north just doesn’t offer the opportunities any more and the southern states are doing so.

  30. Refresh my memory, Dennis. Did whites flood the streets when cop Mohammed Noor killed someone?

  31. “Whites, asians, and hispanics wouldn’t do it. They’d insist on an investigation, but they’d remain civil.”

    Which however will get the most attention, and maybe something done about things? I’m not saying rioting is a ‘good idea’ but whites have tried the ‘keep calm and let the law take its course’ route for the last 40 years, and see where thats got them.

    Its increasingly obvious to anyone with a brain that the authorities in Western countries only respond to those who threaten to tip the apple cart up, violently. Its why every western politician is sh&t scared of saying anything about Muslims. Christians don’t start a riot when the local primary school starts teaching their kids about transsexuals and anal fisting, Muslims do. Guess which get their ‘concerns’ listened to the most by the powers that be?

  32. Gamecok, refresh my memory – did that case seem like just the latest in a long, long string of black cops kill white people for no good reason cases?

  33. Dennis, Pointing Out The Obvious

    Refresh my memory, Dennis. Did whites flood the streets when cop Mohammed Noor killed someone?

    They didn’t. Not that it has any bearing on the point I was making, mind you. I don’t think Derek Chauvin murdered George Floyd because Chauvin is racist and Floyd was black. I think Derek Chauvin murdered George Floyd because he was an unqualified police officer, and as such he unintentionally (and therefore inappropriately) used deadly force. The issue here is competence. Nothing else.

    Neither Mohammed Noor nor Derek Chauvin murdered civilians because they were racists. They murdered civilians because they were shitty cops who shouldn’t have been cops in the first place. That is NOT the failure of society in general, it’s the very narrow and specific failure of the system of how cops are hired, trained, evaluated and fired. You can get ‘Merica to a place where racially everything is all shits and giggles, but if you have bad cops running around being stupid, you’re going to end up with dead civilians. Period.

  34. But if memory serves, Mohammed Noor advanced with unwarranted haste in his career because of race-based affirmative action.

    I haven’t looked it up again, but wasn’t it he who killed the Canadian or Australian tourist?

  35. Dennis, Legend of the Parish

    Lud –

    After Noor murdered the civilian (Justine Damond, dual U.S. and Australian citizenship), it came to light that he had been hired despite performing quite badly during training (badly enough to be disqualifying for potential selection for the police force), and retained despite very negative evaluations of his job performance by his immediate superiors. It seems clear that the political powers that be (which included the police chief) in Minneapolis were desperate to have a Somali police officer at any cost, so Noor was retained despite the fact that all evidence pointed to the fact that he was unfit for duty as a police officer. He ended up getting 12.5 years in prison, and the City of Minneapolis paid Damond’s family $20 million in damages.

    I suppose you could make the argument that Damond’s death was due to racial issues, but I would suggest that it was due to misplaced priorities on the part of the mayor, city council and police chief. Having a Somali-American on the force should have been a goal, given the size of the Somali community in Minneapolis, but not prioritized to the extent that it lowered the performance of the police force and the safety of the general public. I see it as a failure of leadership, nothing more.

  36. Tribalism. Common sign carried by mod is, “Stop killing us.”

    The tribe is the ‘us.’

  37. Having a Somali-American on the force should have been a goal, given the size of the Somali community in Minneapolis, but not prioritized to the extent that it lowered the performance of the police force and the safety of the general public. I see it as a failure of leadership, nothing more.

    I think I see a much bigger problem here, old bean.

  38. What’s all this fake news about riots in Minneapolis?

    CNN, MSNBC say everything is orderly: The Minneapolis Riots Gatherings of Peace
    https://youtu.be/GbJ_A74KZuM?t=253

    Gosh, there are riots, but fake-stream media downplaying the who, rather like the nightly RoP riots in Paris
    Ingraham: Minneapolis burning
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-eNzaVheA0

    Minneapolis protesters burn down police precinct as tensions escalate – and loot and burn fellow blacks shops, bars…
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5FOBePmTg4

    Trump flagged by Twitter for ‘glorifying violence’ – whut? He wanted violence to stop
    https://youtu.be/WilH4B3NGS4?t=60

    Let’s remember, plod were investigating report of attempted fraud, chap was in vicinity and matched description. When plod questioned he became aggressive and ‘mental’, plod restrained

    ‘mental’: crack head like Abbot’s son?

  39. @Diogenes May 30, 2020 at 8:04 am

    It’s tough for Guardianistas to draw connections. Everything is either linked to climate change or Trump or Brexit. With an analytical toolkit this sophisticated, reality is a constant puzzle

    Yep. Greens still at it, and the anti-Trumps/Rational

    Reuters Smears ‘Anti-Greta’ Naomi Seibt with Fake News Fact Check

    YouTube Cancels Another Video for Coronavirus Wrongthink

    Bitchute The Case Against The Lockdowns
    https://www.bitchute.com/video/P7qJBIVOPoBs/

    Not only Campbell, the vanished from GMB Piers Morgan too
    Lockdown has taken its toll on the mental health of Alastair Campbell – formerly chief bagman to Prime Minister Tony Blair and a titan of early 21st century British political skullduggery, now tragically reduced by weeks of enforced isolation to gibbering near-insanity
    Video: youtube.com/watch?v=J2HORoSwP-0

  40. So Much For Subtlety

    Esteban May 30, 2020 at 10:24 am – “A lot of space could be saved in these articles if they just remembered that black people are disproportionately poor, and all of the unpleasantness that they list (income, health, unemployment, education, drug & alcohol abuse, family breakdown) go along with being poor.”

    Sure. But then being poor goes along with a lot of things as well. Which is the chicken and which is the egg? For instance, a criminal record is going to keep your poor but does being poor make you a criminal? This is a kind of important question to ask. The Left likes to focus on poverty – it gives them a common cause with the Black community: looting the White community and blames us rather than them – but is it the root of the problems here? OJ Simpson was not poor.

    “The fact that gov’t policies destroyed black families over the past 50 years is one massive elephant in the room.”

    Or perhaps the US government stopped trying to force people of African descent into a European family structure and they immediately reverted to an African norm?

  41. So Much For Subtlety

    Dennis, Pointing Out The Obvious May 30, 2020 at 5:06 pm – “I don’t think Derek Chauvin murdered George Floyd because Chauvin is racist and Floyd was black. I think Derek Chauvin murdered George Floyd because he was an unqualified police officer, and as such he unintentionally (and therefore inappropriately) used deadly force. The issue here is competence. Nothing else.”

    No it isn’t. Because that pre-supposes that Chauvin was an incompetent police officer who killed Floyd. And at the moment there is precisely no evidence of this. Certainly murder requires intent or gross incompetence. Did Chauvin *want* to kill Floyd? It does not look like it. Was he using a police-approved technique to restrain a six foot, 200 pound man under the influence who was resisting a lawful arrest? Yes he was. Did Chauvin’s actions cause Floyd’s death? The preliminary autopsy says that Floyd did not die of asphyxiation or any hold on the neck. It blames his heart and blood pressure problems plus any drugs he may have been taking. You know, things Chauvin could not have known.

    It is grossly unfair to claim that Chauvin did anything wrong. Much less that he murdered someone. That will have to wait for further discovery. What it looks like we have here is another White man and lose his job, his home and his family for doing his job legally and appropriately because Blacks have anger management issues and the Democrats want to win an election.

    “if you have bad cops running around being stupid, you’re going to end up with dead civilians. Period.”

    I agree. And guess what? Affirmative action kills. Detroit police killed, beat and torture a lot more now than they did in the Sixties but no one cares because it is Black police officers beating Black suspects for a Black government. The problem here is the malicious assumptions of the media, the Democrats and the Black community as a whole. They assume wrong doing when none is in evidence.

    Dennis, Legend of the Parish May 30, 2020 at 6:56 pm – “I suppose you could make the argument that Damond’s death was due to racial issues, but I would suggest that it was due to misplaced priorities on the part of the mayor, city council and police chief.”

    Those misplaced priorities being entirely racist in origin and intent. So yeah, it looks like racial issues. It was the racially motivated Affirmative Action program for Somalis that put Nur in a police car with a gun.

    “Having a Somali-American on the force should have been a goal, given the size of the Somali community in Minneapolis, but not prioritized to the extent that it lowered the performance of the police force and the safety of the general public. I see it as a failure of leadership, nothing more.”

    And everyone should have a unicorn. There are reasons why Black police officers are poorer police officers than Whites. Basically there are too few competent, high IQ, non-criminal Blacks chasing too few jobs so employing them means lowering standards. It is not a bug, it is an inevitable result of looking at skin colour and not competence.

    But it is also the way forward. The Black community as a whole has clearly shown they have very different standards of law and order and attitudes to crime White people do. They also do not care about Black men being killed by Black police officers. The solution is to have a Black community and a White community where each can enforce their own civilisational standards.

  42. So Much For Subtlety

    philip May 30, 2020 at 3:10 pm – “To complicate things further, Jamaicans in US do significantly better than Jamaicans in UK. Colin Powell is first generation immigrant Jamaican, for example.”

    Isn’t he the child of first generation Jamaican immigrants? It is true that people of Caribbean origin do much better in the US than people of African American, so to speak, origin. Much ink has been spilled as to why this might be. I guess in the land of the blind the one eyed man truly is king.

    jgh May 30, 2020 at 3:24 pm – “Additionally, before recently the majority of immigration to Britain was of overseas British citizens who saw themselves as British and came to the mother country to be British.”

    We are doing something that makes the children of immigrants fail. I think it is the education system. We teach hatred and resentment. So most of Britain’s suicide bombers are Muslims, yes, but they also have over a decade in British schools. There is a literature on this from the US that talks about American schools teaching Black children not to act White. That is, they know that they cannot compete with Whites on an even playing field and so they insist that no one compete. That is a problem.

    TD May 30, 2020 at 3:48 pm – “Blacks have moving out of the northern states (and California), most of which are blue states, and have been heading south for decades, suggesting that the north just doesn’t offer the opportunities any more and the southern states are doing so.”

    This is the story of America – White people create wealth. They create great neighbourhoods with good schools. They innovate. And since WW2, Blacks follow them. They fled the South for the North East. And they ruined city after city. The NE is now a shit hole. So Whites left and moved to the sunshine belt. California was solidly White and White people created something great. So they moved there and now it is a shit hole. Whites moved to the South. Blacks are now following them. Innovation has moved to the Pacific North-West and the South. But the pillaging hordes always follow.

    The world needs a safe homeland for Whites.

  43. So Much For Subtlety

    Dennis, Yet Again May 30, 2020 at 3:17 pm – “The murder of George Floyd isn’t an isolated incident. It is the second murder of a civilian by a Minneapolis police officer in less than three years.”

    Again there is no evidence that Floyd was murdered. Second, two incidents in three years is pretty much the definition of an isolated incident. Baltimore would love to have that record.

    “Race isn’t the actual issue here. We have a white civilian murdered by a black officer and a black civilian murdered by a white officer. In both cases the officers in question had a history that strongly suggested (to put it mildly) that they were not qualified to be police officers.”

    Where is the evidence that Chauvin was not qualified to be a police officer? Nur, sure, everyone knows that. Race is the entire issue here because the media, the Democrats and the Black community see an issue to exploit in an election year and they will not accept that any White person can do their job professionally and competently if it results in a Black person even being mildly inconvenienced. So Chauvin has to be destroyed even though there is, as yet, no evidence he did anything wrong.

    The problem here is that White Swedish Americans created a great society in marginal land. Their lying, dishonest, psychopathic Democrat leaders went out of their way to import a Black under-class. Which cannot possibly cope with a White society. So they act out – and get buckets of cash thrown at them for it. Whites insist on a minimum standard of policing that the Black community will not accept. They are fine with crime even if it means that ten Blacks suffer for every White who is a victim of Black crime. As long as Whites suffer. These two communities cannot live together. It is time to accept that.

  44. @BoM4 May 30, 2020 at 11:28 am

    +1 Only black father/fam on my UK street is a nice guy -in bigger house than us- one of his sons won a scholarship to MIT

    @So Much For Subtlety

    Repeating my earlier post:
    “Let’s remember, plod were investigating report of attempted fraud, chap was in close vicinity and matched description. When plod questioned he became aggressive and ‘mental’, plod restrained

    ‘mental’: crack head like Abbot’s son?”

  45. That the Minneapolis PD trains its officers to kneel on the suspect’s neck as a form of restraint certainly is a bit of a problem for the Chauvin prosecution. How can you convict a cop for murder when he was just applying his training to the situation at hand?*

    *Rhetorical question. I know they’ll get him for something.

  46. FFS, he was kneeling on the man’s neck for 8 minutes after he was subdued. In court they’ll debate whether it was murder or not, but the cop killed him. At minimum it was vicious and cruel and showed a complete lack of concern for grievous bodily harm.

  47. Slightly different line of discussion, but it’s bizarre that people are rioting because they want justice. Barring an unimaginable defense, Chauvin is going to be the most famous and most hated white ex-cop in history and he’s going to prison for 20 years. Justice will come in this case, everyone whose head isn’t wedged up his own arse knows that.

    Meanwhile, let’s go protest the shot out of Target, I could use a new big screen TV.

  48. So Much For Subtlety

    Esteban May 31, 2020 at 1:12 am – “FFS, he was kneeling on the man’s neck for 8 minutes after he was subdued. In court they’ll debate whether it was murder or not, but the cop killed him. At minimum it was vicious and cruel and showed a complete lack of concern for grievous bodily harm.”

    There is no evidence the cop killed him at all. There is no evidence the police officer was doing anything other than applying the officially approved method of restraining people who are resisting arrest. It is hardly vicious or cruel. We are not talking about an officer putting his entire weight on the guy’s neck – he did not die because his airway was blocked.

    We are talking about a man who stands over six feet tall, weighs 200 pounds – and who works as a bouncer. How would you like to restrain him? What culturally appropriate method of restraint do you suggest?

    This certainly looks like Eric Garner all over again – the malicious hatred of Whites from the Establishment means another dedicated public servant will have his life and career destroyed.

  49. So Much For Subtlety

    Esteban May 31, 2020 at 1:16 am

    It is not bizarre. Ghetto Shopping is what Ghetto Trash do. They do not need a reason. They just need a critical mass of looters so that the police will not intervene. They are just doing en mass what they are doing every day in smaller numbers. With some added Black Block thugs as well.

    Chauvin does not need an unimaginable defence. He has a simple one – he was doing a difficult and dangerous job arresting a difficult and dangerous man. He applied the officially approved method of restraint. Unbeknownst to him, the very large suspect had an undisclosed history of heart disease. The death was not caused by the knee. It could have happen to anyone.

    Justice will not come in this case because Chauvin will lose his job. As with other policemen who have been accused of crimes by the Leftist lynch mob. He shouldn’t. There are policemen who have done wrong – Freddy Grey in Baltimore was bad. But this does not look to be one of those cases.

    What do you think he did wrong?

  50. Dennis, Just Dennis

    SMFS –

    Do your homework. There is plenty of reporting on Chauvin’s performance in the field. Also familiarize yourself with what constitutes third degree murder in Minnesota.

    Jerry C –

    I guarantee that a knee to the neck is not approved procedure… for reasons that are now obvious. The knee goes to the shoulder at the shoulder blade.

  51. So Much For Subtlety

    Dennis, Just Dennis May 31, 2020 at 1:27 am

    Dennis, speaking as a fan of your old website, you are wrong on this and you are going to look very foolish if you continue to argue.

    There are a lot of smears about Chauvin floating around. So what? It would depend on who he was policing. 18 complaints in a White neighbourhood would be an issue. 18 complaints in a Black one is just par for the course. Even Amy Kloubuchar refused to prosecute him so his record wasn’t that bad.

    https://www.startribune.com/what-we-know-about-derek-chauvin-and-tou-thao-two-of-the-officers-caught-on-tape-in-the-death-of-george-floyd/570777632/

    In 2008, Chauvin shot and wounded Ira Latrell Toles during a domestic assault call. According to a 2011 article from the Pioneer Press, Chauvin and other officers showed up to an apartment in south Minneapolis just before 2 a.m. Toles grabbed for an officer’s gun and Chauvin shot him in the abdomen.

    In 2006, Chauvin and five others responded to a stabbing. After Wayne Reyes, 42, allegedly pulled a shotgun on the officers, one of the officers shot and killed Reyes, according to a report titled “Stolen Lives” from Communities United Against Police Brutality, a police watchdog nonprofit based in Minneapolis.

    Shot and wounded one guy asking to be shot, stood somewhere near by while someone else shot another guy. You know this is not the record of a serious bad police officer. 18 complaints in 19 years is just not that much.

    Third degree murder in Minnesota?


    609.195 MURDER IN THE THIRD DEGREE.

    (a) Whoever, without intent to effect the death of any person, causes the death of another by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life, is guilty of murder in the third degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 25 years.

    It is the standard depraved indifference rule. So we can agree Chauvin did not intend death. Was it an act eminently dangerous to others? No, it is a legal and officially approved restraint technique. Does it show a depraved mind? Not really.

    This simply does not apply here. Chauvin was doing his job within reason and in a manner that had been approved – and taught – by the police force of Minneapolis. There was no depraved indifference.

    “I guarantee that a knee to the neck is not approved procedure… for reasons that are now obvious. The knee goes to the shoulder at the shoulder blade.”

    This is the problem. You know shit. And it pains me to say that as a fan of your other work. But you know nothing. The knee to the neck is the officially approved procedure for this city. As any number of media reports would have told you if you had not made up your mind already.

    Walk away from this one. You will be humiliated.

  52. Dennis – “Neck Restraint: Non-deadly force option. Defined as compressing one or both sides of a person’s neck with an arm or leg, without applying direct pressure to the trachea or airway (front of the neck). Only sworn employees who have received training from the MPD Training Unit are authorized to use neck restraints. The MPD authorizes two types of neck restraints: Conscious Neck Restraint and Unconscious Neck Restraint. (04/16/12)”

    Minneapolis PD Use of Force Policy

  53. Newmania
    May 30, 2020 at 9:44 am

    . . . Race in America is a singular problem

    OMG. Race is a bigger problem in the UK (and Europe and Asia and the Middle East, and South America – or Africa itself) than it is in the US. In fact, 20 years ago racism was basically done in the United States – its people like you, with your constant demand that we focus on skin color first and foremost that has made it resurgent over the last two decades. Social Justice did this. Intersectionality did this. The Progressives did this.

    Its amazing to see a demand for Segregation again – this time coming from the minorities themselves.

    ‘Race is a singular problem in the US.’ What the fuck indeed.

  54. John
    May 30, 2020 at 12:56 pm

    One recent Minnesota police shooting which was not mentioned in the Guardian article was that of the white Justine Diamond who was killed by the not white Officer Mohamed Noor.

    Officer Noor was subsequently found guilty of third degree murder and received a sentence, 12.5 years, which seems remarkably lenient by US standards. Somehow I doubt if George Floyd’s killers will get off so lightly.

    Its exceedingly harsh – almost uniquely so – by US *law enforcement* standards. The fix is already being worked for Floyd – it wasn’t the knee on the neck that killed him, he had ‘pre-existing conditions’.

    And what ‘reasonable’ law enforcement officer could know that kneeing an unresisting, unconscious man in the neck for 10 minutes could be a violation of his civil rights? Is there any case law *identical* to the this situation that set a precedent? No? Then Qualified Immunity shields him.

  55. Race is a bigger problem in the UK (and Europe and Asia and the Middle East, and South America – or Africa itself) than it is in the US.

    It is abundantly clear that this is not correct.

    In fact, 20 years ago racism was basically done in the United States

    This might be, but you’re a long way beyond that now. And race lunacy is getting worse in the UK because our idiot leftists import ideas direct from US race baiters and intersectional politics advocates.

  56. SMFS – Bollocks. Doesn’t matter if it was “allowed” by Minnesota PD (they have no authority to “allow” cops to assault people, it’s still a crime).

    The cop kneeled on the victim’s neck for 8 minutes and 43 seconds – long after he became nonresponsive. That’s why he’s going to jail for murder.

  57. ‘If that procedure had been in the manual we’d have seen it before and the cops’ union would have been screaming it from every roof top.’

    Nope. It is in the manual. It’s out now that the officer’s actions didn’t kill the perp directly.

    “George Floyd autopsy shows no signs of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation, attributes death to ‘being restrained, his underlying health conditions, and any potential intoxicants in his system”

    Tell that to the mob.

  58. So Much For Subtlety

    Steve May 31, 2020 at 10:20 am – “Doesn’t matter if it was “allowed” by Minnesota PD (they have no authority to “allow” cops to assault people, it’s still a crime).”

    Of course it matters and of course they do. Unless you believe in Natural Law, the authorities have the right to decide what is and is not acceptable use of force. And they are very generous to police officers. They can do things in the line of duty we cannot. Like shoot people. Certainly they can agree what is an acceptable use of restraint. By definition the authorities have the power to do so. Who else does?

    It also matters because third degree murder requires depraved indifference. Like planting a landmine in a park – you just don’t care who you kill through actions that could never be acceptable. Chauvin only has to point to the manual. He was doing what he was trained to do. What he thought was safe and acceptable. Even if it wasn’t. It goes to his state of mind. How can a legal and officially sanctioned act be depraved indifference?

    “The cop kneeled on the victim’s neck for 8 minutes and 43 seconds – long after he became nonresponsive. That’s why he’s going to jail for murder.”

    The police officer kept a knee on the man’s neck causing him no direct harm at all for eight minutes. So what? It did not kill him, at least not directly. How was he to know that there was a problem? He will probably go to jail for murder but only because it is an election year and the Democrats need angry Black voters. The police officer did nothing wrong.

    After all, how would *you* restrain a 200 pound six foot bouncer with a long history of violent crime who appears to have been under the influence of some drug? Please including diagrams in your answer.

  59. The cop kneeled on the victim’s neck for 8 minutes and 43 seconds – long after he became nonresponsive. That’s why he’s going to jail for murder.

    Up until the suspect became unresponsive the arrest seems legit. He could have kneeled on the suspect’s neck for an hour if necessary so long as the suspect was OK.

    The key focus of any trial will (or should) be for the approx. 3 minutes that the suspect was nonresponsive. Did the officer do his duty in ensuring the welfare of the person in his custody? Was he aware the suspect was unresponsive; should he have been? If so, did he check for life signs? If so, did he intervene in the absence of life signs?

    Unless some ulterior motive comes to light, this is a case of negligence. In the UK I think this would be a manslaughter trial. It’s odd that he’s been charged with both manslaughter and murder.

  60. Sadly, Agammamon and Gamecock have it right.

    And SMFS is a prime example of why making police brutality a race issue is so counterproductive. You’re always going to have people like him and Heather MacDonald who will take the view of “black commit more crime, therefore they deserve to have the police thug against them” view.

    In reality, cops will be happy to thug against anybody regardless of race, and bad training and qualified immunity only exacerbate the situation. These allow the cops to get away with the George Costanza defense: “Was that wrong? Should I not have done it? Nobody told me.”

    Several of the cops who murdered Freddie Gray in Baltimore were black, and I’ve got an acquaintance whose white, 60-somthing nurse mother was the victim of police brutality when she tried to help a student suffering an asthma attack at a high school basketball game. Under state school athletic association rules, the game was supposed to be suspended while the player received medical attention, but the referee tried to resume the game. Note that the paper regurgitates the cop propaganda; comments have been wiped multiple times because when the incident happened, there were multiple comments from people in attendance saying the way the cop reported it and the paper passed on is not what really happened.

  61. SMFS – it’s up to the courts to decide what constitutes reasonable force and what constitutes assault, not Minnesota PD. Courts in the US have traditionally been extremely generous towards cops, doesn’t mean they have a right to hurt or kill.

    The police officer kept a knee on the man’s neck causing him no direct harm at all for eight minutes.

    According to an autopsy performed by the local authorities, who are probably about as reliable as the folks who insisted Jeffrey Epstein killed himself. It’s all on video, anyone trying to claim Mr Floyd just naturally died while a policeman was crunching his neck is on a hiding to fuck all.

    After all, how would *you* restrain a 200 pound six foot bouncer with a long history of violent crime who appears to have been under the influence of some drug

    How indeed is a strapping big policeman, with three other policemen by his side, supposed to restrain a man who was already handcuffed and on the ground?

    History’s mysteries, eh?

    PJF – I bet an ulterior motive will come to light.

    Mr Floyd was employed by the same nightclub as his killer. They knew each other. The policeman owns a holiday home in Florida – interesting to see how he could afford that on a Minnesota PD salary.

  62. So Much For Subtlety

    Ted S, Catskill Mtns, NY, USA May 31, 2020 at 11:56 am – “And SMFS is a prime example of why making police brutality a race issue is so counterproductive. You’re always going to have people like him and Heather MacDonald who will take the view of “black commit more crime, therefore they deserve to have the police thug against them” view.”

    I am not making it a race issue. I am pointing out the crass exploitation of this issue by the Democrats to mobilise their base. It is laughable that you condemn Heather McDonald who is one of the more sensible and reasoned writers on crime around. Because guess what? Blacks do commit more crime. Neither of us say that police ought to behave like thugs for that reason. As far as I know. I do not speak for her. But a number of unfortunate incidents are inevitable and they are likely to involve Blacks because they are likely to be involved in more incidents.

    “In reality, cops will be happy to thug against anybody regardless of race, and bad training and qualified immunity only exacerbate the situation.”

    I do not deny it. So what? Does any of that apply here? We have four policemen who seem to have done nothing wrong. At least nothing outside their guidelines. How is that murder?

    “Several of the cops who murdered Freddie Gray in Baltimore were black”

    Indeed. And the police of Detroit are more violent now they are more minority than they were before. As I said.

    So all in all what are you adding to this conversation?

  63. SMFS: There are a lot of people on both sides who have a vested interest on keeping this a race-based issue. Absolutely the Democrats need to keep the black voters agitated and voting TEAM BLUE at a 90% clip. But you can’t deny that there are a lot of people like Heather MacDonald out there, as well as more generalized authority fellators. (Consider the use of the horrible term “officer-involved shooting”, deliberately designed to obfuscate that the cop made an active, conscious decision to shoot somebody.)

  64. Mr Floyd was employed by the same nightclub as his killer. They knew each other.

    Did they? Evidence? Last I read the owner of the nightclub though it unlikely they knew each other.

    The policeman owns a holiday home in Florida – interesting to see how he could afford that on a Minnesota PD salary.

    I knew (vaguely) a policeman who had a holiday home in Hunstanton. He seemed quite legit. Ex-officer Chauvin was working two jobs and was married to an estate agent. A holiday home seems within their reach.

    It’s all on video…

    It’s a bit surprising to see you so emotionally caught up in this. As we saw with the Covington kids, what seems quite obvious and real in a video can be anything but. You might be correct in your suppositions, but so far it will only be by accident.

  65. I used to do lots of martial arts,I’m also a Doctor.

    This guy had hypertensive heart disease and atherosclerotic heart disease. It is reported he had a history of coke abuse.
    Consequently his heart was fucked.

    Kneeling on the back of the neck is a good and safe way to control someone. The policeman started on the back of his neck and slipped forward to beneath his chin. Compression of one carotid artery has probably caused a vagal reflex which a healthy person would shrug off. But not this guy.

    He could be done for manslaughter.

  66. The officer will be tried for starting a riot. Ignore what’s on the indictment.

    The perp wrote a check that his body couldn’t cash. He is responsible for his own death.

    “I can’t breath.”

    Day One of Black Perp School. “When forcefully restrained by the cops, claim that you can’t breath.”

  67. PJF – evidence?

    Inference. What are the odds they didn’t know each other? They worked at the same place. It’s a nightclub, not British Telecom, probably doesn’t have a large workforce. Especially if Mr Floyd was “known to the police” before his arrest.

    A holiday home seems within their reach.

    Quite possible. Also quite possible he was dodgy af. Nightclubs are known for drug dealing, for example.

    It’s a bit surprising to see you so emotionally caught up in this. As we saw with the Covington kids, what seems quite obvious and real in a video can be anything but

    I don’t think I am emotional about it (though I have no reliable way of knowing), but the Covington kids don’t have a body count.

  68. “Several of the cops who murdered Freddie Gray in Baltimore”

    Petitio principii fallacy.

  69. Dennis, Tiresome Denizen of Central Ohio

    Dennis – “Neck Restraint: Non-deadly force option. Defined as compressing one or both sides of a person’s neck with an arm or leg, without applying direct pressure to the trachea or airway (front of the neck). Only sworn employees who have received training from the MPD Training Unit are authorized to use neck restraints. The MPD authorizes two types of neck restraints: Conscious Neck Restraint and Unconscious Neck Restraint. (04/16/12)”

    Actually, this simply makes my original point. Think about it… You have a police department so poorly lead and managed that it takes the position that using neck restraint on an unconscious individual is acceptable. Anyone here want to defend that? Under what specific circumstances is it necessary to restrain an unconscious individual by any method, let alone applying pressure via knee or arm to the back of the unconscious individual?

    This is bad policy, for reasons that are now very obvious. Despite receiving MPD training, Chauvin used it and ended up with a dead suspect. So not only is the policy bad, but now one must also question the quality of the training provided by MPD.

    One more observation of the obvious: The MPD calls it “Neck Restraint: Non-deadly force option”. Clearly they got that wrong as well.

  70. Dennis, Pointing Out The Obvious

    Walk away from this one. You will be humiliated.

    By you, SMFS? I don’t think so. All you’ve done is say “I hate darkies, and I don’t mind ’em being dead” in far more words than is necessary.

  71. Clearly they got that wrong as well.

    Tasers are regarded as a non-deadly force option. Sometimes people die after being tased. Therefore . . .

  72. Dennis, Yet Again

    One more thing: Notice that the MPD restraint policy is silent about having the restraining officer determine whether the unconscious individual is having a medical emergency. Wouldn’t common sense dictate that it should be policy for the restraining officer to try to determine if the unconscious individual is having a medical emergency and is in need of medical assistance?

    The issue isn’t race. The issue is competence, or more specifically the lack thereof. The officer’s lack of competence, the MPD’s leadership’s lack of competence, and Minneapolis’ political leadership’s lack of competence. Period.

  73. Dennis, Bullshit Detector

    Tasers are regarded as a non-deadly force option. Sometimes people die after being tased. Therefore . . .

    Strawman argument. Applying physical restraint on an unconscious individual is unnecessary at all times and under all circumstances. They are unconscious.

    Question: Would a police department policy allowing officers to tase an unconscious individual sound reasonable to you?

  74. Detect your own bullshit strawman, Dennis.

    I was responding to your “One more observation of the obvious:” comment, which clearly singles out the issue of neck restraints being described as non-deadly force.

    Fuck all to do with tasing unconscious individuals.

  75. The issue isn’t race.

    Well, it is and it isn’t.

    Was the cop who killed George Floyd motivated by “white supremacy”? Probably not, given his multiracial partners on the scene and Hmong wife.

    But “white supremacy” is the talking point the Left is going with, and using to excuse blacks looting and rioting. It’s a racial issue now whether you want it to be or not.

    The fact that “white supremacy” doesn’t exist, that whites are overwhelmingly the victims of both black aggression and police homicides, and that whites are the only race you can legally discriminate against in jobs, housing and academia while also publicly vilifying without any backlash whatsoever, is also completely besides the point.

    If whites continue to tolerate the 21st century white man’s burden they’ll get what they deserve. I have a feeling, tho, that this isn’t going to pan out the way Antifa and their handlers are hoping. Left wing riots only made Nixon stronger.

  76. What we have here is the filming of the making of the sausage.

    Even Dennis, the protector of felons, admits that the first 5 minutes were perfectly ordinary police business.

    But the public isn’t used to seeing stuff like this, and reacts. To the normal. Because they see it for the first time.

  77. Dennis, Etc., Etc., Etc.

    I was responding to your “One more observation of the obvious:” comment, which clearly singles out the issue of neck restraints being described as non-deadly force.

    Fuck all to do with tasing unconscious individuals.

    Are you sure about that? Using a knee to the neck to restrain an conscious individual might conceivably be considered an appropriate attempt at applying non-deadly force, just as tasing a conscious individual resisting an officer might be considered an appropriate attempt at applying non-deadly force. No reasonable person would argue that there isn’t a risk of injury/harm in those circumstances; it is an attempt to minimize the risk of injury/harm to both the officer and the individual, and cannot be expected to eliminate injury/harm entirely.

    Calling a knee to the neck of an unconscious individual “non-deadly” doesn’t make it so… Which should have been obvious to those at MPD that wrote the policy. Just because a taser could kill doesn’t mean it is a lethal weapon, nor does it mean the labeling of its use as “non-deadly” is misapplied. Use of a knee or a taser can be non-deadly force if used appropriately and correctly. What MPD did was forget the appropriately and correctly part of the equation. That was my point.

  78. So Much For Subtlety

    Steve May 31, 2020 at 12:01 pm

    “it’s up to the courts to decide what constitutes reasonable force and what constitutes assault, not Minnesota PD. Courts in the US have traditionally been extremely generous towards cops, doesn’t mean they have a right to hurt or kill.”

    Yes it does mean they have the right to hurt and kill. That is why we give them big sticks and guns. Reasonable force is the issue here, because we all admit that they have the right to use force. And even kill. Not that this officer did – at least not intentionally if at all.

    “According to an autopsy performed by the local authorities, who are probably about as reliable as the folks who insisted Jeffrey Epstein killed himself.”

    Suuure. Let’s ignore the Democrat-run authorities and focus on someone with real credibility. Like Benjamin Crump’s hired autopsy guy. This is paranoia. Perhaps the authorities screw up autopsies from time to time. Maybe they do with malicious intent – like the convictions of Stephen Lawrence’s killers. But let’s see some evidence before we assume that is the case here.

    “How indeed is a strapping big policeman, with three other policemen by his side, supposed to restrain a man who was already handcuffed and on the ground?”

    He is supposed to keep the suspect on the ground. By applying force to some part of his body …. like his neck. As the manual says.

    Ted S, Catskill Mtns, NY, USA May 31, 2020 at 12:26 pm

    “There are a lot of people on both sides who have a vested interest on keeping this a race-based issue.”

    Including you it seems. As that is the tack you chose to take.

    “But you can’t deny that there are a lot of people like Heather MacDonald out there”

    Smart? Well informed? Intelligent? Indeed there are.

    Gamecock May 31, 2020 at 1:28 pm

    “The officer will be tried for starting a riot. Ignore what’s on the indictment.”

    Being White and starting a riot. A race hustler like Al Sharpton can start a riot and get a Yeshiva school student killed or seven people burnt to death in a bodega and no one cares.

    Steve May 31, 2020 at 1:37 pm

    “Also quite possible he was dodgy af. Nightclubs are known for drug dealing, for example.”

    And so …. you think this was a professional hit designed to take out a rival? Out-standing.

    “but the Covington kids don’t have a body count.”

    Remember all the other bullshit cases from the Obama era. Why would this one be any different? It is tragic to see policemen taking down someone like Eric Gardner. But what else can they do? Make being arrested a hobby – you have to let anyone go if they say their mother is expecting them home for dinner? What?

    Dennis, Tiresome Denizen of Central Ohio May 31, 2020 at 2:16 pm

    “Actually, this simply makes my original point.”

    No, it fucks over your point three times before breakfast.

    “Under what specific circumstances is it necessary to restrain an unconscious individual by any method, let alone applying pressure via knee or arm to the back of the unconscious individual?”

    Umm the one where you do not know he is unconscious? Admittedly it is a little short sighted not to notice but it is a long way from murder.

    “Despite receiving MPD training, Chauvin used it and ended up with a dead suspect.”

    Once. In 19 years.

    Dennis, Pointing Out The Obvious May 31, 2020 at 2:23 pm

    “By you, SMFS? I don’t think so. All you’ve done is say “I hate darkies, and I don’t mind ’em being dead” in far more words than is necessary.”

    Yea but I say it with such style and panache, not to mention with a slight remnant of a Derry accent, so it sounds so very convincing.

    “The issue isn’t race.”

    No the issue is race. If a Black officer in Baltimore or Detroit had sodomized him with a baton until he died, no one would give a damn. But it is election year. So this is why this is a big deal and the much worse case of Philander Whatshisname was not.

    Dennis, Bullshit Detector May 31, 2020 at 2:38 pm

    “Strawman argument. Applying physical restraint on an unconscious individual is unnecessary at all times and under all circumstances. They are unconscious.”

    No it is not. There is no such thing as non-lethal force. There is lethal force, less lethal force or no force at all. Tasers kill. Like neck holds. They are not non-lethal. They are less lethal. This suspect was not unconscious when he refused to get into the police car. He was not unconscious when he struggled with the officers. He was not unconscious when he was put on the ground and Chauvin put a knee on him to keep him down. At some point he passed out and then died. Took the police officers some time to realise this. That is not murder.

    “Question: Would a police department policy allowing officers to tase an unconscious individual sound reasonable to you?”

    Well yes they would. If the first one put him down, and knocked him out, the officers would be entitled to tase him until they were sure resistance had stopped. There will be some overlap in some cases.

    Steve May 31, 2020 at 3:03 pm

    “But “white supremacy” is the talking point the Left is going with, and using to excuse blacks looting and rioting. It’s a racial issue now whether you want it to be or not.”

    So why are you helping them?

    “If whites continue to tolerate the 21st century white man’s burden they’ll get what they deserve. I have a feeling, tho, that this isn’t going to pan out the way Antifa and their handlers are hoping. Left wing riots only made Nixon stronger.”

    Whites are the modern version of the Moriori. They will suck it up and take it all the way to the gas chamber.

  79. SMFS – You seem to believe words are magic, and that handwavium is a useful element of discussion. They aren’t and it isn’t.

    So why are you helping them?

    Same question to you. Unless you’re Officer Killer’s lawyer, there isn’t a sane and reasonable defence for the guy. He killed someone who posed no threat to him, and we all saw it.

    Tediously arguing that kneeling on a handcuffed man’s neck for just under 10 minutes is normal just isn’t going to persuade anybody of anything, except that there’s something off about you.

    Whites are the modern version of the Moriori. They will suck it up and take it all the way to the gas chamber.

    For fuck’s sake. Get on SSRI’s before you die of autoerotic asphyxiation, or something.

  80. Dennis, Who Is As White As White Can Be

    But the public isn’t used to seeing stuff like this, and reacts. To the normal. Because they see it for the first time.

    Am I reading this correctly? Are you really suggesting that the inappropriate and incorrect application of a badly flawed use of “non-deadly” force policy by a police officer – one of four heavily armed police officers on the scene – that results in the death of an unarmed member of the public after that member of the public has been brought under the control of those officers is “normal”?

  81. A former defender and prosecutor of felons

    Don’t know how it is in Septicland, but here, at least last time I looked, we had in the criminal law a principle called, “you take your victim as you find him”. So if you punch him intending to give him a black eye, but it turns out his skull is made of balsa wood, tough luck.

    If the same principle applies over there, then the fact that this Floyd died because his other conditions made him more vulnerable may not assist the Chauvin chap.

    Be nice if the matter could be entrusted to a jury, with all satisfied that justice lay in the process rather than the outcome. But that seems unlikely.

    What I do not understand is why looting is an appropriate response by blacks. I mean, if as a black person you believe this happened because the Honkies are determined to extinguish you, how does nicking their flatscreens, and probably those of Koreans and Indians, help?

  82. Dennis, Whose Own Mental Health Is Never In Doubt

    SMFS –

    You’ve veered into Newmania territory (albeit with much better typing). It’s not a statement I make lightly. You might want to pause and reflect on that.

  83. “Am I reading this correctly? Are you really suggesting that the inappropriate and incorrect application of a badly flawed use of “non-deadly” force policy by a police officer – one of four heavily armed police officers on the scene – that results in the death of an unarmed member of the public after that member of the public has been brought under the control of those officers is “normal”?”

    The man died from the stress of the detention, not the detention.

    BTW, this is the upgraded, humane way. 50 years ago, they’d have just shot him.

  84. Dennis, Yet Again

    The man died from the stress of the detention, not the detention.

    Am I reading this correctly?

    The man died from the stress of the heart attack, not the heart attack.
    The man died from the stress of the gunshot wound, not the gunshot wound itself.
    The man died from the stress of the 135 foot fall, not the 135 fall itself.
    Etc.

    That make much sense to you?

    And even if he did die from the stress of the detention, rather than the detention itself, don’t you think that Chauvin’s actions made the detention unnecessarily stressful?

    There’s a difference between lying down on your stomach while handcuffed and lying down on your stomach handcuffed with about 180 pounds of police officer pushing his knee into your throat. Right?

  85. In any case, as Tim has pointed out many times, juries are not there to convict based on the exact wording of the law, but to be:

    able to just say “but we don’t think that should be a crime.” Or even “the punishment is too high, we’ll not find guilty, or only of a lesser crime and therefore punishment.”

    No doubt that’ll be the outcome of the trial here. Won’t help him get his jobs and life back however which is how the Left now go about things – the process of law is the punishment.

  86. …of police officer pushing his knee into your throat. Right?

    Wrong. At no point was pressure applied to the throat. You are definitely getting weird.

  87. Dennis, The Peak of Mental Health

    You are getting weird, Dennis.

    You just finished arguing that it isn’t the fall that kills you, rather it’s the sudden stop at the end that is to blame.

    And I’m getting weird?

  88. Dennis, Whose Own Mental Health Is Never In Doubt

    Wrong. At no point was pressure applied to the throat. You are definitely getting weird.

    I suggest to look at both the video and the stills. Closely.

    Oh, and objectively.

  89. Dennis: Oppressor, Warmonger, Capitalist and Consumer of Petroleum Products

    Since I’m the one that’s getting weird, try this little experiment: Place your fist on the side of your neck and press hard. Then start moving your fist – slowly – towards the front of your body. Note how quickly the pressure from your fist impacts your throat. And your breathing. Also note that it still seems that your fist is pressing against what you’d think was your neck. Once you’ve done that, go back and look at the stills of where Chauvin’s knee is on Floyd’s neck. Then put two and two together.

    Come on, white guys, stop with the lame-ass excuses for the white guy.

  90. Dennis, Delicate Flower

    Are you in with the autopsy conspiracy theory, Dennis?

    The autopsy is a non-issue.

    A heavily armed policeman – in the presence of third other heavily armed policemen – inappropriately and incorrectly applied a badly flawed restraint policy on an unarmed civilian that resulted in the civilian’s death. The civilian was alive and handcuffed on the ground and then, less than ten minutes later, he was dead and handcuffed on the ground… with a heavily armed policeman’s knee pressing on his neck (and throat) for the entirety of those ten minutes.

    The results of the autopsy doesn’t change the essential facts of the event. But it will offer a bunch of white guys to make excuses for the white guy who fucked up.

  91. Our coppers are enfeebled mumblewoppits.

    Quite aside from this Floyd case, Yankee coppers seem terrifying.

    And I say that as someone who hasn’t seen the video, and who has no strong feelings on the propriety of Chauvin’s actions.

  92. Dennis, Proven Correct In Most Things Most of the Time

    From the New York Post… Read and weep, apologists:

    The head of the Minnesota Chiefs of Police condemned fired police officer Derek Chauvin for pressing his knee on George Floyd’s neck — and said cops in the state are not trained to use the technique.

    “I think there’s a national narrative that police officers in Minnesota are being trained in the technique that Derek Chauvin used and that is simply not the case, it is the furthest from the truth that exists,” Andy Skoogman said on “Fox News Sunday.”

    “We did condemn the actions of the officer, not only the technique used by Derek Chauvin but the lack of empathy shown by the other officers on the scene,” he added.

    Skoogman praised Minneapolis Police Chief Medaria Arradondo for quickly firing Chauvin and the three other officers who participated in detaining Floyd last Monday.

    Floyd died after Chauvin kept his knee on Floyd’s neck for nearly nine minutes.

    Dennis may be weird, but it appears he’s the one who has got it right from the start. Or are you now going to argue that ol’ Dennis AND the head of the MN Chiefs of Police don’t know what they’re talking about.

    THE ISSUE IS COMPETENCE.

    Let the equivocating, rationalizations and denial commence! The narrative must be maintained!

  93. @SMFS May 31, 2020 at 1:18 am

    +1 Agree

    ‘mental’: crack head like Dianne Abbot’s jailed son? ‘Roid rage Chris Cuomo?

    @Dennis

    “The knee goes to the shoulder at the shoulder blade” – which is beside neck, video angle doesn’t confirm either; commentary alleges neck. What’s procedure if shoulder blade restraint not working?

    btw: “Innocent until proved guilty”, msm and many here too taking opposite view

    @JerryC
    Thanks

  94. “I think there’s a national narrative that police officers in Minnesota are being trained in the technique that Derek Chauvin used and that is simply not the case, it is the furthest from the truth that exists,” Andy Skoogman said…

    Oh, did he not mention officers are no longer trained in the technique but that they used to be? A weird omission considering the officer in question had been on the force for nineteen years. It’s almost like it’s just weasely, ass-covering spin.

    Dennis may be weird, but it appears he’s the one who has got it right from the start. Or are you now going to argue that ol’ Dennis AND the head of the MN Chiefs of Police don’t know what they’re talking about.

    Poor ol’ Dennis has forgotten that he’s spent half the thread criticising MDP policy that the MN Chiefs of Police just said isn’t policy.
    Dennis earlier: Despite receiving MPD training, Chauvin used it and ended up with a dead suspect. So not only is the policy bad, but now one must also question the quality of the training provided by MPD.
    Head of the Minnesota Chiefs of Police: cops in the state are not trained to use the technique.
    Dennis now: See, I was right all along!

  95. So Much For Subtlety

    Steve May 31, 2020 at 3:48 pm

    “You seem to believe words are magic, and that handwavium is a useful element of discussion. They aren’t and it isn’t.”

    This is ironic?

    “Same question to you. Unless you’re Officer Killer’s lawyer, there isn’t a sane and reasonable defence for the guy. He killed someone who posed no threat to him, and we all saw it.”

    He did not intentionally kill a guy who was a threat to him. Floyd was a violent criminal who worked as a bouncer and weighed 100 pounds. And appears to have been on drugs. There is no way any sensible person, police officer or not, was going to let him get up once he proved belligerent. This officer appears to have done nothing wrong – it is too early to be sure, but it is like all the other bullshit Obama-era cases. Of course good citizenship means up holding civilised values. One of which is that we do not turn on our police officers without good cause.

    Joining a lynch mob is not brave. Standing against them is.

    “Tediously arguing that kneeling on a handcuffed man’s neck for just under 10 minutes is normal just isn’t going to persuade anybody of anything, except that there’s something off about you.”

    Actually it will. For anyone with enough understanding and imagination to put themselves in the policeman’s shoes. He was doing his job according to the police bureau’s guidelines. For that he will have his life destroyed.

    Dennis, Who Is As White As White Can Be May 31, 2020 at 3:59 pm

    “Are you really suggesting that the inappropriate and incorrect application of a badly flawed use of “non-deadly” force policy by a police officer”

    There is no evidence it was applied inappropriately or incorrectly.

    Dennis, Yet Again May 31, 2020 at 4:42 pm

    “The man died from the stress of the 135 foot fall, not the 135 fall itself.”

    Well no because there is a difference between what you can reasonably expect and what can happen that no reasonable person can foresee.

    “And even if he did die from the stress of the detention, rather than the detention itself, don’t you think that Chauvin’s actions made the detention unnecessarily stressful?”

    A 200 pound violent felon on drugs. What possible restraint could be used that would not be stressful? You all seem to want to make arrest a team sport – voluntary if the criminal does not want to go. How precisely can you restrain such a man in a way that ensures that there is no possible, no matter how rare, situation in which he might die? Arresting people is inherently violent and dangerous. How can it be otherwise?

    MrYan May 31, 2020 at 4:59 pm

    “No doubt that’ll be the outcome of the trial here. Won’t help him get his jobs and life back however which is how the Left now go about things – the process of law is the punishment.”

    Indeed. I think most White jurors will look at this officer and think about how they would restrain a 200 pound violent felon on drugs. I would not do this job and if I had to, I would probably just shoot him. To be on the safe side. Police officers do a dangerous and unpleasant job – and juries, Whire juries, are very slow to second guess them or judge them. Too slow in many cases. The police officer who shot Philander Castile should have gone to jail. But probably not in this case. It looks like a reasonable use of force. We don’t know because the facts are not out yet.

    Dennis, Whose Own Mental Health Is Never In Doubt May 31, 2020 at 5:53 pm

    “I suggest to look at both the video and the stills. Closely. Oh, and objectively.”

    The autopsy results so far show that the knee to the neck did not cause the death. There was no blocking of the airways. It looks like Chauvin used the technique correctly.

    Dennis: Oppressor, Warmonger, Capitalist and Consumer of Petroleum Products May 31, 2020 at 6:05 pm

    “Come on, white guys, stop with the lame-ass excuses for the white guy.”

    Stop joining the lynch mob.

    Dennis, Delicate Flower May 31, 2020 at 6:15 pm

    “The autopsy is a non-issue.”

    Like fuck it is. Any trial is going to start with the autopsy. As it should.

    “A heavily armed policeman – in the presence of third other heavily armed policemen – inappropriately and incorrectly applied a badly flawed restraint policy on an unarmed civilian that resulted in the civilian’s death.”

    These are not facts. These are your opinions. There is no evidence that the technique was used inappropriately or incorrectly – the knee does not appear to have contributed to the death. The policy may be badly flawed but that is your opinion. Not the opinion of the police force in question. The officer should not be judged by what some dude in Ohio thinks but what his Department’s policy was.

    “The results of the autopsy doesn’t change the essential facts of the event. But it will offer a bunch of white guys to make excuses for the white guy who fucked up.”

    There is no evidence any White guy fucked up. The autopsy will show what caused the death – and so far it does not appear to be the knee. People die in custody. People die while being arrested. People die when put on the ground. The question is causation and reasonable expectation.

    Dennis, Proven Correct In Most Things Most of the Time May 31, 2020 at 9:06 pm

    “From the New York Post… Read and weep, apologists:”

    So you are right about one thing – the chief of police is massively incompetent.

  96. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

    Floyd resisted arrest. Didn’t work out well for him.

  97. “I mean, if as a black person you believe this happened because the Honkies are determined to extinguish you, how does nicking their flatscreens, and probably those of Koreans and Indians, help?”

    You can take the person out of Africa………

  98. Dennis, Who Is As White As White Can Be

    Pcar –

    I’m ashamed to say that I didn’t follow JerryC’s link to the MPD use of force policy. Had I done so I’d have had far more ammunition for my argument regarding the competence of Derek Chauvin. But what JerryC quoted is – in and of itself – misleading. That isn’t JerryC’s fault and I don’t think it was his intent. You have to read to policy closely, especially how “unconscious restraint” is defined, and under what specific circumstances it is approved for use. to understand how Chauvin’s actions violated MPD use of force policy.

    Here’s the definition:
    “Unconscious Neck Restraint: The subject is placed in a neck restraint with the intention of rendering the person unconscious by applying adequate pressure. (04/16/12)”

    Here are the procedures for use:
    “The Unconscious Neck Restraint shall only be applied in the following circumstances: (04/16/12)
    On a subject who is exhibiting active aggression, or;
    For life saving purposes, or;
    On a subject who is exhibiting active resistance in order to gain control of the subject; and if lesser attempts at control have been or would likely be ineffective.
    Neck restraints shall not be used against subjects who are passively resisting as defined by policy. (04/16/12)
    After Care Guidelines (04/16/12)
    After a neck restraint or choke hold has been used on a subject, sworn MPD employees shall keep them under close observation until they are released to medical or other law enforcement personnel.
    An officer who has used a neck restraint or choke hold shall inform individuals accepting custody of the subject, that the technique was used on the subject.”

    So the bottom line is Derek Chauvin violated MPD policy by using neck restraint in a manner that is EXPRESSLY PROHIBITED by MPD policy. George Floyd was handcuffed and on his stomach on the ground. That doesn’t come close to qualifying as passive resistance, much less active aggression or active resistance. Chauvin then further violated MPD policy by failing to keep George Floyd under close observation after (actually while) applying neck restraint.

    The issue is COMPETENCE.

    Thanks, Pcar, for the link.

  99. @Dennis

    Peeps high on drugs often continue violence even when cuffed – head butt, kick, bite, spit, ram. Maybe he would’t stay down without kneeling on him or shooting him?

    Floyd has a long history of drugs, robbery, theft and violence

    We don’t know full details: Cop innocent until proven/sacrafised as guilty

    George Floyd Autopsy States Underlying Health Conditions ‘Likely Contributed to His Death’
    “The preliminary results of George Floyd’s autopsy suggest there were a number of factors that contributed to the 46-year-old’s death. The report, conducted by the Hennepin County Medical Examiner, states there were “no physical findings that support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation“; however, the combined effects of being pinned down by an officer as well as “his underlying health conditions and any potential intoxicants in his system likely contributed to his death.”

    George Floyd’s criminal records; incomplete
    Excerpt:
    “Floyd served five years in prison from 2009 to 2014 for second conviction for aggravated assault stemming from a robbery in 2007 where he entered a woman’s home, pressed a gun into her stomach and searched the home for drugs and money.

    Granted, his history is not admissible in court, but it certainly paints a clear picture of who he was. Now there are plenty who are claiming that he was “turning his life around,” but you will excuse me if I say that I have heard that song before”

    H/T https://www.longrider.co.uk/blog/2020/05/31/what-10/#comment-41097

    @BiW FO

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