Interesting number

While the Indian ethnic group makes up 3% of the
working-age population of England and Wales, they account for 14% of doctors.

From the IFS report into effnics and covid-19.

Would be interesting to take that a stage further. What’s the split between waves of immigration? Or, another way of the same thing, how much of that is the Ugandan (really, East African) Asians and how much direct from India to here?

The Ugandans were much like those strivers from Grantham, traders who aimed for the kiddies to be professionals and thus climb in the social rankings. How much of that is true of those coming direct? If from the same Gujerati background, quite a lot perhaps. But what about the wider sources?

Not important, would just be an interesting sociological insight.

31 thoughts on “Interesting number”

  1. Does the definition of “Indian ethnic group“ include the whole sub-continent?

    My gut feeling is that if those arriving from Pakistan and Bangladesh over the past 20-30 years were included it would come to more than 3% of the working age population, maybe a lot more if including 2nd generation individuals.

    It would be good to know this if for no other reason than to dispel any incorrect assumptions I may have made.

  2. Some Indians weren’t all that keen on independence, and soon departed for the safety of the UK, knowing what India and Pakistan were likely to become.

  3. When ethnic groups are over represented in something bad, people claim racism. What is the reason for over representation in something good?

  4. The Indians and Pakistanis I’ve known personally over the years, university and work place, have all been top people, nice and smart. Some of them from East Africa, some Pakistan, one I don’t know but his mother cooked a very nice cauliflower potato curry dish, one Indian catholic, one Fullbright scholar. Perhaps education and western world view and not too much religion have something to do with it.

  5. Bloke in North Dorset

    On my first project in India I worked with a retire Indian Air Force Sqn Ldr. Over a glass or 6 of whisky he said that what we need to understand about Indians is that they are not team players, which is why the like to become doctors and accountants. My limited observations on that and other projects provide some limited confirmation.

    That was ‘95 and I don’t think much will have changed.

  6. BTW, how long till Indians are officially white? Rishi and (especially) Priti are becoming the proggies’ favourite hate-sponges, dunno if they’ll be allowed to stay on the BAME train blame game.

    Remember when Mrs Thatcher wasn’t a “real” woman, because right wing? Scottish Tories aren’t “true” Scotsmen, etc?

  7. @Steve “Remember when Mrs Thatcher wasn’t a “real” woman”

    No need to remember – they still claim this. 30 years since she was PM she still lives rent free in their heads. Magnificent.

  8. I find the sight of Priti Patel stirring up anti immigrant bigotry hilarious, you can see she actually believes Brexit`s UKIP constituency( about half if it )would have her in the country one second longer than necessary.
    Years ago I had a fun chat with an Indian looking fellow who kept calling himself black and going on about black ishews ( as you do).I had to say …eeerm you are not black you are sort of fawn old son.. which seemed to go down badly. Not as badly as my next remark which was that I guessed ( correctly) he was from Uganda and was only here because his lot got kicked out by the blacks.
    The Ex Ugandan Indians remind me a bit of the way South Africans used to be, rude coarse racist aggressive ..also oddly anachronistic.

  9. Mal – She’s probably to blame for the Coronavirus too

    Newms – I find the sight of Priti Patel stirring up anti immigrant bigotry hilarious,

    No you don’t, your bum clenches hard enough to turn coal into the Koh-i-Noor when she appears on the telly.

  10. The first Indian I knew was as a fresher. He was a lovely chap: good natured, clever, honourable, good sportsman. He’d grown up in Southern Rhodesia so his English was excellent if a little archaic in its slang. (Crumbs!)

    Someone once told me that he far preferred working with Indians who’d grown up in the West rather than the Subcontinent. Is that a common experience?

  11. Anyone else noticed the ticking timebomb in the headlines:
    – BAME twice as likely to die from Covid19 as white
    – NHS to stand down BAME stafff from front line duty

    …just waiting for…
    BAME doctor claims racial discrimination because white candidate had 2 years front line Covid treatment on his CV, whereas BAME candidate was stood down from duties in same period…

  12. They study hard to please their mothers.
    Just like US jews less than a century ago: “My son, the doctor…”

  13. Just a thought. If all the Indians you had met were like those that Jussi reports you could be forgiven for thinking that all Indians are great.
    If someone’s experience of Indians was less fortunate he might think all Indians are bad.
    And you and someone will be calling each other names for a long time because you’ve each felt one part of the elephant without ever seeing the whole.
    Substitute any group title for Indian and it still works.

  14. They study hard to please their mothers.
    Just like US jews less than a century ago: “My son, the doctor…”

    As in ” Help help …My son , the doctor, is drowning….”

  15. Steve and Priti sitting in a tree K I S S I N G …. don`t obsess Steve, they are all pink on the inside.

  16. Bloke in North Dorset


    That’s in the literature. There’s a high trust among people from different races and cultures at the top of the socioeconomic pile, but very low trust amongst those at the bottom.

    Its why the elite think all plebs are think racist bastards.

    This podcast is one of my all time favourites, the Canadian host, en econmics PhD candidate is very uncomfortable with the discussion, but to be fair to him he sees it through.


    Garett Jones returns to the podcast to discuss the issue of ethnic diversity. There is a wide body of research showing that ethnic diversity can reduce the productivity of teams, firms, and even whole countries.

    Williams and O’Reilly (1996) review dozens of studies showing that ethnic diversity has a negative impact on group performance. In the two decades since, more research has reinforced that result. Alesina and La Ferrara (2005) find that increasing ethnic diversity from 0 (only one ethnic group) to 1 (each individual is a different ethnicity) would reduce a country’s annual growth by 2 percent. Multiple studies (La Porta et al., 1999; Alesina et al., 2003; Habyarimana et al., 2007) have shown that ethnic diversity negatively affects public good provision. Stazyk et al. (2012) find that ethnic diversity reduces job satisfaction among government workers. Parrotta et al. (2014a) find that ethnic diversity is significantly and negatively correlated with firm productivity.

    This may seem strange to you. If you’re like me, you probably enjoy diversity. You probably don’t observe the problems of low morale and high marginal costs that researchers have found in ethnically diverse workplaces.

  17. On a serious note, it might be worth bringing to wider coverage the case of the Ugandan Asians.
    Partly because this was yet another example of black-driven racial-hatred kleptocracy, but mostly because it’s an excellent example of the opposite of the magic dirt theory.

    As a young lad, I worked for two brothers, expelled from Uganda, having their large chain of car dealerships confiscated. From millionaires to the clothes they stood in. They arrived in 1970s Britian, hardly the hotbed of entrepreneurship. Closed shop. Lots of strikes. Jobsworths everywhere. I remember it well, and not fondly.

    Yet they started a business and before Maggie arrived, they had made a new million-pound business they owned. Quite likely, them and their cohorts helped the 1979 election to make its radical change.

    So no magic dirt here, rather, the expelled immigrants brought their ability and drive with them.
    Ah, I can see the modern difficulty.

  18. Slightly on topic: Are we giving chloroquine or any of the other suggested prophylactics to front line staff yet? Are we testing Vitamin D levels and supplementing where necessary, (particularly for the BAMMIES)? Or are we waiting for the strictly controlled, double blind tests that might be finished in time for the third wave when it arrives?

  19. Wife spent many years working in ICU and said every case of TB she dealt with was someone from Indian sub-continent or had been there recently so not surprised to see some groups over represented during a respiratory pandemic.

  20. Royal College of Surgeons: BAME healthcare workers should be ‘removed from danger’ on frontline because they are ‘genetically more at risk of Covid’ despite it piling pressure on white NHS staff

    Racisim is Now Good
    UK Health Service Plans to Withdraw Ethnic Minorities from Coronavirus Frontline

    COVID Update – Focus on Vitamin D

    Makes more sense than all the Left’s racist virus, UK deprivation & poverty etc rubbish. Maybe we should stop importing them as it increases their virus death rate

    Ahem, I’ve been being racist and for over a month saying and being mostly ignored eg:

    Gov should be ‘racist’ and say no brown/black treating CV19 unless they sign disclaimer notifying increased risk

  21. I suspect that if you compare immigrant Indians in Britain to natives, you’ll find that the immigrants are smarter, harder working, more determined, and more successful. But would be wrong to conclude that this means that Indians are better. A person in India might make the equivalent comparison and find that British immigrants into India were smarter, harder working, more determined, and more successful than native Indians. What is happening here is that there is actually no inborn difference between people, instead its the smarter, harder working, and more determined people who are much more willing to move to a new country in search of an opportunity.

    In the specific case of doctors, Britain has teaching facilities which are seen as attractive around the world, so we can attract the best and most ambitious students. If we then have a welcoming immigration policy, when they qualify we can tempt them into staying, leaving us with a higher than expected quality of doctors.

    The effect may even persist for a few generations as the original immigrants pass on their attitudes.

  22. Charles – when they qualify we can tempt them into staying

    Dunno. You make it sound like there’s a chance foreign students won’t try to stay here (legally or otherwise). In the vast majority of cases, this isn’t a problem.

    British universities are engaged in a yuge, enormous, legalised immigration scam and nobody’s being “tempted” except the exceptionally well paid senior leadership teams, who rake in a fortune from often dubiously talented foreign chappies using it as an easy route to relocate here permanently.

    So we probably want a certain number of exceptionally bright Indian or whatever kids studying medicine at Edinburgh, while the ethics of Scumbag Uni being allowed to bring in job lots of Beyonce Studies students from Botswana or Punjabi computer janitors hoping to parlay their compsci degrees from the University of HP Deskjet into a quick taught Masters then permanent residence are more questionable. It’s an open not-even-secret in academia that the Far Easterners in particular are notorious plagiarists and cheats, many of whom have no business setting foot in a hall of learning. But they pay well.

    Like most things to do with our incredibly bloated, depressingly mediocre and yet incomparably self-regarding HE sector, it’s in dire need of disruption.

    Ultimately, if we can’t be arsed doing bread and butter stuff such as having our own babies or training our own doctors, there won’t be a “we” to worry about for much longer. The extremely enlightening thing about BoJo’s proposed milquetoast and inchoate reforms to the immigration system was in the furious responses it drew from all over the place.

    So apparently we desperately “need” imported cleaners and coders, baristas and barristers, fruit pickers and field engineers. Which raises the question of what it is actual British people are meant to, yunno, do around here.

    The story seems to be that the knowledge economy (PBUH) requires unlimited numbers of Romanian car washers to do the jobs wot Brits won’t do, in order to free up the native-born population to not do the clever high-end jobs. The sad state of Silicon Valley should tell us where this approach leads – it’s Bollywood Basin now, and no Americans need apply to the industries their fathers invented.

    Still, the shareholders are happy.

  23. Steve – “Which raises the question of what it is actual British people are meant to, yunno, do around here.”

    They can do whatever they like. They can work hard, get a good degree in a useful subject and then get a useful job. They can become a single parent on benefits loitering in cafes trying to write. They can sit at home on benefits doing nothing. But ultimately the jobs need to be done and if British people are unable or unwilling, others must be found because Britain has no special privileged place in the world and other countries will have no reservations about overtaking Britain in wealth and power.

    “no Americans need apply to the industries their fathers invented.”

    The fact their fathers invented things gives them no special entitlement. In fact, it is a special irony when Americans, of all people, seek to claim such an entitlement as it is a country of immigrants led by an immigrant’s child.

  24. Charles —” jobs need to be done and if British people are unable or unwilling, others must be found”, you have not addressed Steve’s question.

    But if they need to be done, but not by British people, why have the jobs here at all?

  25. djc – “But if they need to be done, but not by British people, why have the jobs here at all?”

    There are three kinds of jobs:
    1) things like coffee shops. No extra coffee shops in France can serve to provide coffee in Britain, so if jobs in this area do not exist here then we lose out in not having the benefit of the service.

    2) things like farming. If we do not do this sort of work, we can import the benefit from countries which do it, but the world as a whole is a poorer place because we have wasted our opportunity to use a resource and we are disproportionately poorer.

    3) things like making shirts. If we do not do this sort of work, we can import the benefit from countries which do it, but unlike the previous category, only we lose. Other countries gain from our loss as the productivity occurs there (so, for example, the workers’ income taxes are raised there).

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