A medical examiner has classified George Floyd’s death as a homicide, saying his heart stopped as police restrained him and suppressed his neck.

“Decedent experienced a cardiopulmonary arrest while being restrained by law enforcement officer(s),” the Hennepin county medical examiner’s office said in a news release. Cause of death was listed as cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint and neck compression.

Under “other significant conditions”, it said, Floyd suffered from heart disease and hypertension, and listed fentanyl intoxication and recent methamphetamine use.

FentanylFentanyl – the dividing line between getting high and suppression of breathing unto death being rather fine with that drug.

Anyway, homicide. No, not the same as murder, murder is a form of homicide. Homicide being the killing of one human by another, which includes, yea, murder, as well as manslaughter and even the entirely justified – because there are such things and whether this is or not is the interesting question – killing of a suspect while trying to arrest them.

I’m generally with Dennis here, this is really about shitty training and oversight of police. But then I think that about the US police anyway.

59 thoughts on “Oh aye?”

  1. “But they aren’t any use, policemen aren’t. Why, in all those books I’ve read there hasn’t been a single
    policeman that was any good at all. …Tell you what it is,” he said, warming to his theme, ” policemen have gotter be stupid ’cause of their clothes. I mean, all the policemen’s clothes are made so big that they’ve gotter be very big men to fit ’em an’ big men are always stupid ’cause of their strength all goin’ to their bodies ‘stead of their brains. That stands to reason, dun’t it ? ”

    William, speaking in Richmal Crompton’s ‘William’ book.

  2. I was reading that, Andrew, and thought it must be Captain Potato! William, however, is a real philosopher not a pretend economist

  3. @Andrew M

    Good grief!

    Jordan, a 49-year-old college graduate, took the exam in 1996 and scored 33 points, the equivalent of an IQ of 125. But New London police interviewed only candidates who scored 20 to 27, on the theory that those who scored too high could get bored with police work and leave soon after undergoing costly training.

    Most Cops Just Above Normal The average score nationally for police officers is 21 to 22, the equivalent of an IQ of 104, or just a little above average

    If 33 maps to 125 and 21.5 maps to 104 then the upper bound of 27 can’t map all that high.

    I don’t know how cop recruitment works in the USA but where do they get their detectives and specialists (eg fraud and computer crime) from if not the trained cops who had to go through this initial process? Or do local police forces not have those and only provide the muscle, rely on state / federal support for the brains stuff?

    Also, do they have to pass an emotional literacy test? I mostly see US cops doing stupid things so it’s a biased sample. But they often seem remarkably incapable of using words to control a situation.

  4. @ MBE
    “where do they get their detectives and specialists (eg fraud and computer crime) from ”
    I am led to believe that the FBI, rather than local police, deal with that.

  5. The stranglehold of the police unions is a scandal here in the UK too. That said, a black man in the USA is statistically more likely to be struck by lightning than shot by a cop. Of course, his chances of being shot by another black man are higher.

  6. If meth alone is a substance that quickly leads to misuse and difficult effects, its combination with fentanyl is even more challenging. Fentanyl can be up to 50 times stronger than heroin. It blocks pain receptors and increases dopamine, leading to feelings of happiness. Those feelings come with many adverse health impacts, including an altered heartbeat, anxiety, muscle spasms, nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, hallucinations and blue lips. A very small amount of fentanyl is all it takes to overdose.

    You do not even need to consciously take fentanyl to experience the effects of the meth-fentanyl combination. According to the Salt Lake Tribune, “many drug users may be unaware they are taking fentanyl or have any idea how much is in what they’re taking.” That is because fentanyl can be easily mixed with meth to create a cheap high at a potentially deadly price.

    George Floyd’s drug history will be front and centre of the Chauvin defence. Odds are he’ll walk, then there’ll be more riots.

  7. This is why I said in the other thread the key period for establishing Chauvin’s guilt or innocence is after the suspect became unresponsive. I doubt he’ll be found responsible for stopping the suspect’s heart; it’ll be down to whether he neglected the welfare of the person in his custody.

    The “competence” angle is a red herring. All organisations and individuals within them are incompetent to some degree, most to a high degree. So what? If anything, finding Chauvin to be incompetent in an incompetent organisation lets him off the hook. He can’t be responsible for being placed out of his depth.

  8. @john77

    “I am led to believe that the FBI, rather than local police, deal with that”

    That surely can’t be true in totality, because states have their own local criminal laws, including complex crimes (or even simple-ish crimes that need some skills/expertise/smarts to detect), whereas the FBI presumably deal with crimes that are crimes due to federal law? I may be wrong.

  9. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52877678

    Genius BBC ‘reality check’ reporting here. Apparently it’s unfair that African Americans are killed in 23% of police shootings but make up 13% of the population.

    But they leave out the part where they commit 39% of all violent crime and over 50% of all murders. (Channel 4 stats, not Breitbart or anything!). Would have thought that would correlate more with getting in the gunsight of a US cop.

    Many (not all) black people in the US do get a rough start through no fault of their own. That’s as much (if not more) to do with their poverty and/or broken families as it is the colour of their skin.

    But frankly the black community is far more of a danger to the black community than the cops are. A large part of the answer they have to find themselves

  10. So Much For Subtlety

    There is no evidence of shitty training or oversight – although the poor oversight is highly likely in a city where the last Republican left office in 1972.

    A White man is having his life ruined for stepping up and doing his duty according to the law and the guidelines of the police department. This is just a racially motivated hate crime aimed at getting Trump out of the White House.

    Who in their right mind would want to be a policeman when you can be betrayed in this way? Just as no one in their right mind would want to be a soldier after the way Squaddies back from Iraq were sued by shysters.

  11. Dennis, He Who Wants You To Show Your Work

    All organisations and individuals within them are incompetent to some degree, most to a high degree.

    Really?

    Citations?

  12. Dennis, Who Is As White As White Can Be

    A White man is having his life ruined for stepping up and doing his duty according to the law and the guidelines of the police department.

    A former police officer has ruined his career and his life by violating his department’s written use of non-lethal force policy by using a restraining technique in a situation where it was expressly forbidden by his department’s written use of non-lethal force policy, thus causing the death of an individual by depraved indifference.

    There, fixed it for you.

  13. So Much For Subtlety

    Dennis, Who Is As White As White Can Be June 2, 2020 at 12:00 pm

    “A former police officer has ruined his career and his life by violating his department’s written use of non-lethal force policy by using a restraining technique in a situation where it was expressly forbidden by his department’s written use of non-lethal force policy, thus causing the death of an individual by depraved indifference.”

    We have already established, extensively, none of that is true.

    But thanks for playing anyway.

  14. Dennis, Bullshit Detector

    SMFS –

    As I am sure you are well aware, I posted the MPD use of non-lethal force policy on the other thread last night, and I also highlighted the passage in that policy that expressly forbids the use of the technique employed by Chauvin. As a reminder, here it is:

    Neck restraints shall not be used against subjects who are passively resisting as defined by policy. (04/16/12)

    For the last ten minutes of George Floyd’s life, he wasn’t passively resisting. He wasn’t resisting at all. He was on his stomach, handcuffed, begging Chauvin to take his knee off his neck (and in my opinion, throat). That fact isn’t in dispute, as there is video evidence. But you know that as well.

  15. @PJF

    When I’ve flitted from one sector to another, initially full of high hopes that finally this one is going to be full of top people who actually know their s***, I’ve quickly discovered it’s full of people who know they’re s*** and an even more worrying number of people who haven’t realised it yet. And almost everybody, everywhere, agrees their organisation and/or management are poor, yet often somehow the belief persists that their main rival, be that across town or oversea, is better run. Until you meet someone who’s worked for both.

    I think I can live with the fact organisations are imperfect and staff have been promoted to the limit of their incompetence. But I don’t like it if I’m liable to end up, at random, on the receiving end of their full-frontal incompetence and particularly if that incompetence is going to prove fatal.

  16. Dennis, Pointing Out The Obvious

    Depraved indifference is not a matter of competence.

    From USLegal.com:

    “To constitute depraved indifference, the defendant’s conduct must be ‘so wanton, so deficient in a moral sense of concern, so lacking in regard for the life or lives of others, and so blameworthy as to warrant the same criminal liability as that which the law imposes upon a person who intentionally causes a crime. Depraved indifference focuses on the risk created by the defendant’s conduct, not the injuries actually resulting.

    The sentence highlighted above strongly suggests that in the case of a police officer performing his duties, it is a matter of competence.

  17. So Much For Subtlety

    Dennis, Bullshit Detector June 2, 2020 at 12:29 pm

    “As I am sure you are well aware, I posted the MPD use of non-lethal force policy on the other thread last night, and I also highlighted the passage in that policy that expressly forbids the use of the technique employed by Chauvin.”

    You did no such thing. You are just so bored that you need to pick a fight and so determined to win it you are ignoring what the law says.

    “Neck restraints shall not be used against subjects who are passively resisting as defined by policy. (04/16/12)”

    Floyd was not passively resisting. At least before he passed out he was not. He was very actively resisting. That is why four officers were sitting on him. So it is irrelevant.

    “For the last ten minutes of George Floyd’s life, he wasn’t passively resisting. He wasn’t resisting at all. He was on his stomach, handcuffed, begging Chauvin to take his knee off his neck (and in my opinion, throat). That fact isn’t in dispute, as there is video evidence. But you know that as well.”

    The video is not in dispute. But begging to be let up is not the same as a lack of resistance. There comes a moment where a suspect will no longer resist. Then the officer should take his foot off the suspect. The problem is that the suspect may be faking it so he can start fighting again. Chauvin may have taken too long to work out when this took place. But that is nothing to do with any claim you have made.

    Dennis, Pointing Out The Obvious June 2, 2020 at 12:35 pm

    “The sentence highlighted above strongly suggests that in the case of a police officer performing his duties, it is a matter of competence.”

    No it doesn’t. Because that is not what depraved indifference is. The key is in the word indifference. Someone who is incompetent is not indifferent. Someone who is transporting landmines from point A to point B and drops one unknowingly, is incompetent but not indifferent. Someone who plants a landmine in a park without a care about who it might kill is depraved and indifferent. He might very competently handle said landmine. The point is that he does not care what damage he does.

    There is no way any reasonable jury will convict Chauvin.

  18. There is no way any reasonable jury will convict Chauvin.

    Handy “Get out of jail free!” card there, SMFS: If he’s convicted, obviously the jury was unreasonable.

  19. So Much For Subtlety

    Bloke in Wales June 2, 2020 at 12:47 pm – “Handy “Get out of jail free!” card there, SMFS: If he’s convicted, obviously the jury was unreasonable.”

    Oh he is going to be convicted. But it won’t be by a reasonable jury.

    I am hopeful that it will be like OJ Simpson. You know, a decade after the event we can all agree the jury got it wrong because of racially based malice. Even a majority of African Americans think he was guilty.

    You know, these days, when it comes to race, that’s optimism/

  20. Dennis, Yet Again

    “As I am sure you are well aware, I posted the MPD use of non-lethal force policy on the other thread last night, and I also highlighted the passage in that policy that expressly forbids the use of the technique employed by Chauvin.”

    You did no such thing.

    That’s a genuinely bizarre response. It’s there at the end of the thread. I followed the link provided by Pcar and did a simple cut and paste of the policy. If you don’t believe me follow the link provided by Pcar (or JerryC) and verify it as being authentic yourself.

    I don’t know whether to be amused or troubled by the level of your desperation in this matter.

  21. There is no way any reasonable jury will convict Chauvin.

    Not of causing the suspect’s heart to stop (not with the fentanyl and meth present). But it seems to me there’s a solid negligence case to answer for the long period of unresponsiveness. It’s not as if he wasn’t made aware of it.

  22. A very Murphyesque answer.

    Dennis, you are perhaps aware that it is impossible for me to prove a negative, particularly a negative opinion. But feel free to point out a fully competent organisation or individual and we can examine them to see if I need to revise my position.

  23. Dennis, Tiresome Denizen of Central Ohio

    Dennis, you are perhaps aware that it is impossible for me to prove a negative, particularly a negative opinion.

    That was what I was pointing out, with a certain level of sarcasm. It has bearing on the relative worth of the opinion.

    But feel free to point out a fully competent organisation or individual and we can examine them to see if I need to revise my position.

    That will all hinge on your definition of what constitutes “fully competent”. The devil is in the details, is it not?

  24. That will all hinge on your definition of what constitutes “fully competent”.

    Let’s start with your definition. Off you go.

  25. Dennis, CPA to the Gods

    First of all, eliminate the use of the word “fully”. It’s a loaded word… too subjective.

    I googled the definition of “competent”. Here it is:

    having the necessary ability, knowledge, or skill to do something successfully.

    I like that.

  26. Microsoft has the necessary ability, knowledge and skill to successfully make a return for its investors. Microsoft is a competent organisation. Discuss.

  27. The chap was on the ground, handcuffed. If they were worried that he might start a fight why not just cuff his ankles and then roll him on his side so that he could breathe more easily?

    Then they could take a deep breath themselves while they considered their next action. Why on earth didn’t they buy themselves some time like that?

  28. Dennis: Oppressor, Warmonger, Capitalist and Consumer of Petroleum Products

    dearieme –

    Questions like that are only going to get them all riled up again.

  29. Dennis, Pointing Out The Obvious

    Microsoft has the necessary ability, knowledge and skill to successfully make a return for its investors. Microsoft is a competent organisation. Discuss.

    What is there to discuss? Within the parameters of the definition I proposed, both statements have been proven to be true.

    Try this one: Police officer Chauvin has the necessary ability knowledge and skill to successfully control an individual using non-lethal force. He used what he considered to be non-lethal force on individual Floyd and individual Floyd died. Officer Chauvin is not a competent police officer. Discuss.

  30. Police officer Chauvin has the necessary ability knowledge and skill to successfully control an individual using non-lethal force.

    He’s just met the criteria you like to define competence. He is therefore, according to you, competent. Why are you asking me?

  31. People going to great lengths to defend the police here seem to be under the impression that it’s okay for the police to kill people, competently or not, because it couldn’t be possible for the police to do it to them. Suspect the “black person, far away” thing doesn’t help with the matter.

    Still, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Ian_Tomlinson

    The police protect us, more or less, from criminals – or try to, anyway, when they don’t have more important concerns at least. I am thankful. The police also have a remarkable level of authorisation in our society to restrict liberty and employ force. Those are not things I ever want them getting casual about.

  32. People going to great lengths to defend the police here seem to be under the impression that it’s okay for the police to kill people, competently or not, because it couldn’t be possible for the police to do it to them.

    Sorry, MBE, if I doubt your competence at mind reading.

  33. Dennis, Yet Again

    He’s just met the criteria you like to define competence. He is therefore, according to you, competent. Why are you asking me?

    Why? Because I wanted to see if you would acknowledge the obvious: Chauvin didn’t have the ability, knowledge and skill to successfully use non-lethal force. George Floyd is dead, despite the fact that Chauvin fully intended for the restraint to be non-lethal. So, actually, according the definition I proposed and you accepted, he is NOT competent. You have assumed that the proposition that Chauvin possessed the ability, knowledge and skill was correct. I have not, and never have, endorsed that proposition. I would suggest – and have argued from the beginning – that the fact that George Floyd is dead, and that Chauvin didn’t intend to kill him, proves Chauvin didn’t possess the ability, knowledge or skill necessary to complete the task at hand successfully.

    Competence: “having the necessary ability, knowledge, or skill to do something successfully.”

  34. Half the police officers in Minneapolis are below average.

    “by using a restraining technique in a situation where it was expressly forbidden by his department’s written use of non-lethal force policy, thus causing the death of an individual by depraved indifference, as several other officers watched.”

    Fixed it.

    Chauvin may have made an error. There were other officers present. None seemed to think Chauvin’s actions were erroneous, as none stopped him, proof “depraved indifference” is hyperbole.

    There is no evidence whatsoever that it was racial. Black officers observed what was happening, and didn’t intervene.

    Protesting is absurd. Nothing to see here, folks. Time to go back home.

    BTW, ever notice that all the Left’s martyrs have criminal records?

  35. Dennis, Accounting's White Dwarf

    Then why state it?

    As I said, to see if you would acknowledge that it wasn’t accurate.

  36. Dennis, Delicate Flower

    Half the police officers in Minneapolis are below average.

    That does not necessary mean they are incompetent, and therefore unfit.

    And “depraved indifference” isn’t hyperbole; it is a legal term: “To constitute depraved indifference, the defendant’s conduct must be ‘so wanton, so deficient in a moral sense of concern, so lacking in regard for the life or lives of others, and so blameworthy as to warrant the same criminal liability as that which the law imposes upon a person who intentionally causes a crime.”

    Chauvin has been charged with third degree murder. In MN that is homicide as the result of depraved indifference.

  37. As I said, to see if you would acknowledge that it wasn’t accurate.

    It’s academic to me. I’ve consistently said your “competence” angle is bollocks.

  38. Dennis, Pointing Out The Obvious

    PJF –

    You were the one who wanted to play the definition of competence game.

    I was just being my usual accommodating self.

  39. Dennis, Pointing Out The Obvious

    Chauvin may have made an error. There were other officers present. None seemed to think Chauvin’s actions were erroneous, as none stopped him, proof “depraved indifference” is hyperbole.

    That the other officers didn’t notice – or didn’t care – that there was a serious breach of departmental policy suggests to me that the incompetence may well be systemic. It suggests failures in training, supervision and oversight.

  40. Dennis, I normally am more with SMFS than you in these sort of debates, but I’m with you 100%.

    The officer was utterly indifferent to the fact that over a period a multiple minutes, the man under his knee went from consciousness, to unconsciousness to death.

    The actions of the paramedics that took him away were also deeply suspect.

    Chauvin is a cunt, and deserves jail.

    But here’s the thing – there’s one hell of a rabbit hole here. The two men knew each other and had worked together for years at some really dodgy strip club. There’s far more to this story than we currently know.

  41. You were the one who wanted to play the definition of competence game.

    That’s not the game I’ve been playing, Dennis.

  42. An elderly relative of mine tried paying for goods with a counterfeit note a few weeks ago. She’d been given it as change from another shop and hadn’t clocked it. When this cashier noticed it, it was a very awkward moment but was peacefully resolved with my relative left a little out of pocket. Nothing deeply unpleasant occurred. Cashier very understanding and a bit embarrassed to have to call out and confiscate the note. No police called.

    Does make me wonder, if she hadn’t been a sweet old white lady, but a 40ish big black guy, how it would all have gone down. Whether the same assumptions would have been made by all involved.

    And if anyone thought it would have been in any way “appropriate” or “competent” or “not entirely an undesirable outcome” for a cop to kill her by putting his knee to her throat. Would hardly be worth complaining about, would it? Nothing to see here.

  43. Fentanyl is going to complicate matters as any half sensible defence should be throwing information at the jury about fentanyl overdoses.
    Have the media portrayed him as a promising athlete yet? Defence will have no problem talking ill of the dead

  44. That twenty dollar note intrigues me too. Can a shopkeeper simply confiscate it? Not a few of them would then try to pass it off in change.
    Or do you ask for it back as a souvenir or say you’ll go down to the precinct to report it?
    Counterfeiting is considered a heinous crime (nowadays). But there are few incentives to report it.

  45. Nothing to see here.

    Things, MBE. You’re seeing things.

    . . . for a cop to kill her by putting his knee to her throat.

  46. Interesting twitter thread by an actual economist on what seems to work at reducing police violence. Depressing answer on the systemic basis seems to be “not a lot”, particularly in terms of dramatic positive effects. I had thought body-cams might be a big part of the solution but in fact the evidence for that seems pretty poor.

    https://twitter.com/jenniferdoleac/status/1267112352010420227

    On the individual-level basis @PJF, I was just musing that (i) “being an sweet old white lady” seems to eliminate almost all possibility of police violence against you, compared to having other attributes, and (ii) if despite that some thug in a police uniform did put a knee to the neck of my lovely relative and manage to kill her, deliberately or not, aside from the incredulity that such a thing could possibly happen, the main reaction would be total outrage. On the other hand, if it happens to certain other groups (and it isn’t just black men) then it just registers as another statistic, it’s somehow normalised. I can’t see how it can be healthy in a society for large numbers of people to – quite correctly – perceive the police, who are supposed to be protecting them, as a serious source of danger to themselves and their families. Who wants to be one miscommunication, one traffic-stop-with-unnecessary-escalation, from death? How does that build the kind of trust and communication with law enforcement that’s necessary for them to be effective at the job they’re supposed to be doing?

  47. So Much For Subtlety

    MyBurningEars June 2, 2020 at 8:17 pm

    “An elderly relative of mine tried paying for goods with a counterfeit note a few weeks ago. … Does make me wonder, if she hadn’t been a sweet old white lady, but a 40ish big black guy, how it would all have gone down. Whether the same assumptions would have been made by all involved.”

    But she was not a very large night club bouncer with a history of violent felonies who weighed 200 pounds and was on drugs. You know, police men ought to taylor their response to the suspect in question. A degree of force against said bouncer is acceptable in a way that it would not be against a little old granny.

    “And if anyone thought it would have been in any way “appropriate” or “competent” or “not entirely an undesirable outcome” for a cop to kill her by putting his knee to her throat. Would hardly be worth complaining about, would it? Nothing to see here.”

    I would think a lot of people would complain. Something like this happened with the Countryside protests in London over fox hunting. The police response was wildly disproportionate. All the usual suspects were fine with that but it wasn’t fine really. On the other hand the last time there was looting in London the police should have used more force. Different strokes, so to speak, for different folks.

    Ummmm June 2, 2020 at 9:06 pm – “Have the media portrayed him as a promising athlete yet?”

    Honour student. Turning his life around. Planning to marry at least one of his Baby Mommas. The usual.

    MyBurningEars June 2, 2020 at 11:19 pm – “Interesting twitter thread by an actual economist on what seems to work at reducing police violence. Depressing answer on the systemic basis seems to be “not a lot”, particularly in terms of dramatic positive effects.”

    Yeah. It is almost as if the police are not the problem. Swedish policemen get to police Swedes. Well not so much any more. American policemen do not.

    “I had thought body-cams might be a big part of the solution but in fact the evidence for that seems pretty poor.”

    So you thought that police brutality was the problem did you? It never occurred to me that cameras would do much except on the margins. As the problem is not police men.

    “(i) “being an sweet old white lady” seems to eliminate almost all possibility of police violence against you, compared to having other attributes”

    Sure. It is a mystery innit? Why don’t police react the same way to little old women?

    “(ii) if despite that some thug in a police uniform did put a knee to the neck of my lovely relative and manage to kill her, deliberately or not, aside from the incredulity that such a thing could possibly happen, the main reaction would be total outrage.”

    Calling Chauvin a thug is grossly unfair.

    “On the other hand, if it happens to certain other groups (and it isn’t just black men) then it just registers as another statistic, it’s somehow normalised.”

    Hmm, large man with history of violent felonies who is on drugs and resisting arrest is treated with more force than a peaceful little old grandmother. Can’t think why that might be.

    “I can’t see how it can be healthy in a society for large numbers of people to – quite correctly – perceive the police, who are supposed to be protecting them, as a serious source of danger to themselves and their families.”

    There is nothing correct about that. The police are not a serious source of danger to Black people. At least not in the US. Other Black people are. What is more when Affirmative Action happens and the police are forced to hire less qualified minorities, violence by police goes up. But no one minds that because this is not about the violence or the police. It is about hatred for White standards of justice. And White people.

    “Who wants to be one miscommunication, one traffic-stop-with-unnecessary-escalation, from death?”

    By all means. Let’s withdraw police from Black neighbourhoods. Or perhaps separate the police forces. Black people can hire Black policemen. White people can hire White ones. Do you think violence would go up or down? Do you think the quality of life for Black people would go up or down? See Detroit.

    “How does that build the kind of trust and communication with law enforcement that’s necessary for them to be effective at the job they’re supposed to be doing?”

    Well by not posting the sort of things you post. That would be a good start. But if TW’s place is barely distinguishable from AntiFa it is too late. We need to more to a radical separation. If you like Detroit, you can live there. I am fine with that. But most of us would prefer not to.

  48. So Much For Subtlety

    dearieme June 2, 2020 at 3:31 pm – “The chap was on the ground, handcuffed. If they were worried that he might start a fight why not just cuff his ankles and then roll him on his side so that he could breathe more easily?”

    I am not sure the police carry cuffs that large just on the off chance they need to restrain someone’s feet. Especially if they want to get him in the car. Besides, even shackled hands and feet large men with a history of violence on drugs can still cause a great deal of damage – to themselves and others. Why would they roll him on his side? That would assume they knew he had problems. Clearly they did not.

    “Then they could take a deep breath themselves while they considered their next action. Why on earth didn’t they buy themselves some time like that?”

    It looks like that is what they were doing. They held him down for ten minutes. I assume they were not sitting their thinking about their pensions. I assume that they were furiously debating what to do next. What should they have done next?

    Armchair Generalling is all well and good, but what would you have done? Myself, I would have shot him in the head. There is no way I could fight this one.

  49. Why would they roll him on his side? That would assume they knew he had problems. Clearly they did not.

    They did suspect he had problems. They identified a condition of “excited delirium”, a state that would make him a danger to them and himself. This is why they both held him down and called for an ambulance. They also debated the best position (side, face down) to hold him.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *