66% of the public are morons

Why do they wish to bring back state slavery, helotry, for their children?

National Service should be brought back, two thirds of the public have said, as Boris Johnson and the Queen issue thanks ahead of Armed Forces Day.
While the period of compulsory service in the Armed Forces was phased out in the UK by 1963, two-thirds of Britons said that they would support its reintroduction, with many believing that it should be compulsory.

A more subtle point being perhaps that they think it will teach people the value of authority and all that. When the actual outcome of that 1950s was the explosion of sod all authority ‘n’ it can bugger off in the 1960s. nothing more likely to make people hate the state and its corporals than actually being subject to them for a couple of years.

52 thoughts on “66% of the public are morons”

  1. Two-thirds of Britons support compulsory military service and many believe that it should be compulsory. Yerwot??? This compulsory military service, is it compulsory or not?

  2. Plus the last thing anyone in the army wants is a hundreds of thousands of people who don’t want to be there.

  3. Bloke in cornwall

    I think you’ve nailed it with the “teach them some discipline” thing as most parents are too lazy to do it… Obviously not with their own kids, they are perfect parents. It’s all the other kids parents that are rubbish…

    Oh how many times I hear that conversation.

  4. Bic is right. They don’t want this for their own children; they want it for other people’s children.

  5. Classic case of tyranny of the majority, wanting to impose something on others to which they themselves will not be subject.

  6. Few people who’ve done it seem to complain about national service. My late father and my stepfather both enjoyed theirs. I have not heard complaints about it from friends who’ve done it more recently in Singapore and France.

    the actual outcome of that 1950s was the explosion of sod all authority ‘n’ it can bugger off in the 1960s

    I’m not convinced by that argument. Commie infiltration of the universities was the cause of much of it, plus being released from years of hard times.

    I’m still not particularly for or against conscription. You’d have to consider what good it does vs the cost. France got rid of their system because an army which relies on conscripts is useless. It also means a late start in the jobs market.

    It’s all the other kids parents that are rubbish…

    Quite a few people would like to see conscription for the unruly peasantry but not for their little ones. I wonder whether a compulsory ‘bad lads army’ would do any good though?

  7. 66% of the public are morons”

    Could be understating it. For example, as many as 93% thought that BoJo did an absolutely fine job in locking the country down….

  8. If compulsory national or community service is “slavery” (hyperbole alert!), how is the young’s sense of entitlement to be countered and a sense of the common ground that makes democracy function to be fostered? What are the other options? Increasingly, we have an airport lounge model of the nation, and it doesn’t work well.

  9. Theo makes a good point. How do you build and foster a sense of community and trust-of-other amongst a people without forcing them into actions against their will?

  10. JGH +1000.

    To quote Edward Elizabeth Hitler “please look after my baby, I can’t be bothered”.

  11. I live in a country that has conscription. There are many ways round it. Being in further education, being “invaluable” to your employer, if too thick for that then being a monk (requires bung to the abbot), being too little and of course having tits. A fraction of those eligeable are then selected randomly by a black ball system. The burden falls mainly on the lower classes which is how I expect the respondents to this survey think it would work. My farming SiL complained that of her three boys naturally they took the only one that was of any use.

  12. “Could be understating it”

    Indeed – I’ve just seen a report saying that 80% of the UK public would support a FURTHER LOCKDOWN if the much hyped “Second Spike” occurs. One wonders if this enthusiasm is predicated on the furlough scheme being re-introduced at the same time. Once they find they are now jobless, it might be a different matter…

  13. So Much For Subtlety

    aaa July 3, 2020 at 7:31 am – “Bic is right. They don’t want this for their own children; they want it for other people’s children.”

    I think it is a good rule for any society to see if the rulers are bound by the rules – and that applies especially to military service. So I have been lightly toasted here for saying the best thing about Britain’s upper class is that they are willing to go out and get shot by the Huns. Good for the rest of us. Indeed the Queen once described herself as the daughter, wife and mother of Navy officers.

    Yeah, it occurs to me what might have happened if only the ginger c*nt had the grace to get himself shot in Afghanistan.

    That aside, it is not true of the Soviet Union. The leftist c*nts running the place might have said that military service was good for you, but none of them did it. Lenin was too old by WW1. Stalin was crippled and rejected by the Army. Khrushchev was a political officer (so what the Americans might called a REMF’s REMF) as was Brezhnev who had done his military service pre-war in the border guards. Andropov was a KGB man brutalising peasants in Karelia. Chernenko managed to avoid military service by spending the war in a Higher Political Academy in Moscow. And Gorbachev got a student deferment.

    You can see America is f*cked because all their ruling elites these days avoided military service. George H. W. Bush had worse politics but he was a better man than his son.

  14. “How do you build and foster a sense of community and trust-of-other amongst a people without forcing them into actions against their will?”

    Read Starship Trooper, or Tom Kratman’s Carrera series.
    No slavery, no obligation. But no vote and no public office unless you have voluntarily done your bit.

    Society is like a digestive system: what you get out depends on what you put in.

    NB All the main parties support slavery. Only a year or so ago (in May’s time) there was some Conservadrone wittering on about compulsory 5 (or 10) years of indentured NHS labour for all new junior doctors.
    Minefields on the borders next.

  15. I wonder whether it would even be possible today…

    Conscription worked because there was enough inbuilt deference to authority in the general public that the truly brutal system that was employed to instill obedience only needed to be applied to a small percentage of new recruits. A platoon of 30 could be easily handled by a Corporal and a couple of lance-jacks as they would be able to physically “remonstrate” with the handful of potential trouble-makers. If the platoon had instead, 25 trouble-makers, it’s the “authority figures” who would be at risk.

    Add to that legions of “human-rights” lawyers challenging every set of call-up papers…

  16. We got rid of National Service because it taught young men every 4 letter word – apart from work.
    Unless we had a system like Switzerland and Israel (where you have refreshers every few years so everyone can become a soldier overnight) what is the point?
    BTW we are an Island – Switzerland and Israel aren’t.
    In Colombia they have national service and there are loads of ways to get out of it.

  17. So Much For Subtlety

    Tim the Coder July 3, 2020 at 9:40 am – “No slavery, no obligation. But no vote and no public office unless you have voluntarily done your bit.”

    Most of the shitty Third World Armies are little danger to anyone but each other – and yet they tend to be voluntarily recruited. The Germans, on the other hand, conscripted.

    I am not sure it follows that volunteers necessarily make for a good army.

  18. A large percentage of people is always in favour of something that won’t affect them.

    See ‘tax rises for the wealthy’, where ‘wealthy’ is defined as anyone with more money than the person asked.

  19. “Few people who’ve done it seem to complain about national service.”

    Talk to my father and uncle (well, not my uncle, he’s dead). They both did it near the end and said it was a total waste of time. They got people for a year, so not worth training them as they’d be gone, so let them sit around most of the day.

    It would be even worse today because so much less of the military is about a grunt holding a rifle and so much more is things like using specialist equipment.

    If people want to fix young people, get them working and earning. It’s the best thing for straightening people out because there’s a massive incentive. Legalise drugs so that kids don’t join drug gangs. Cut benefits for under 18s.

  20. My kids went to the State’s useless universities. I would rather they’d got basic training for free, more educational and no outstanding debt.

  21. I would have fought for the country I knew as a child.

    The shithole it has now become?

    Fuck off.

    If a nation no longer has volunteers enough to fight for it–that should tell the boss class scum all they need to know.

  22. To add to the theme of Starship Troopers and civic duty, there should be “no representation without taxation”. That way we don’t get a benefits underclass voting for more pork for themselves.

    National Service doesn’t have to be the armed forces – I’m sure a year or two of back breaking labour picking fruit would take the Antifa tenancies out of a lot of these underemployed and over-educated arseholes.

    Maybe then they wouldn’t go on to let their kids use public spaces as a playground getting under everyone’s feet and then getting aggressive when told to keep the little fuckers under control.

  23. @ MrYan

    “Maybe then they wouldn’t go on to let their kids use public spaces as a playground”

    Including, these days, the pub.

  24. Dennis: Oppressor, Warmonger, Capitalist and Consumer of Petroleum Products

    I just hear roll-call:

    “Ahmed, Ahmed, Ahmed, Ahmed, Ahmed…”

    Naming the new units should be interesting…

    The Royal Golan Heights Guards.
    The Queen’s Royal Husseins.
    The Queen’s Own and Royal Nigerians.
    Etc.

  25. @SMFS
    I wasn’t referring to the quality of the army, but to the resulting quality of the electorate.
    Mr Yan is also on this point.

    Let the people deciding have asstake in the country, and be the ones paying for it.
    Leeches will vote for freestuff. That should disqualify them.

  26. My father was one of the very last to do National Service. He and my mother, had very little in common with the 60s people who I imagine Tim thinks lost respect for authority.
    That generation gap was an unusually large one. Tom Updike captured it in Rabbit Redux part of his Rabbit series, for the US, and here, you saw it on the Good Life in the episode when the tame hippies think Tom is a their guru. I noticed because Tom says he rather likes Richard Tauber just as my father did, and still does, they were onto Bob Dylan and what not …another world.
    Tim is of course right the General public are at least 52% morons but some effortto dismanelty the increasingly isolated classes would be a good idea .

    A 1 month life swap ?

  27. “You can see America is f*cked because all their ruling elites these days avoided military service. George H. W. Bush had worse politics but he was a better man than his son.”

    HUH? Bush Junior was a fighter pilot.

  28. @MrYan

    “National Service doesn’t have to be the armed forces – I’m sure a year or two of back breaking labour picking fruit would take the Antifa tenancies out”

    What makes you think they’d put any effort into it? Incentives matter. If the worst punishment you can get for only doing a half-assed job at back-breaking, unrewarded and largely pointless agricultural work is to be told you’re not doing back-breaking agricultural work anymore then why would anybody be daft enough not to shirk?

  29. Bloke in North Dorset

    When I worked in Zurich the Swiss I got to know readily admitted it was nothing more than social engineering.

    It would probably take the whole of the current armed forces to set up and run traing the conscripts, so we’d need to double, at leat the numbers in the standing armed forces.

    And as I’ve said before, being in the military is about self discipline, if the conscripts don’t want to learn what do you do with them? If a volunteer recruit decides he doesn’t like it they can leave.

  30. “No slavery, no obligation. But no vote and no public office unless you have voluntarily done your bit.”
    Wouldn’t work. People develop a sense of social obligation by socialisation (which triggers the genes…). The initial socialisation has to be compulsory, otherwise you end up with the feral groups we have in our society.

  31. Dennis, Clear-Eyed As Always

    Tim is of course right the General public are at least 52% morons but some effortto dismanelty the increasingly isolated classes would be a good idea .

    Just how is the dismanelty supposed to be accomplished? Do you have any speciftatik ideas topass alongelty us?

    (I don’t know about 52%, but I’ve found one for sure.)

  32. two thirds of the public have said,

    The two-thirds of the country that’s over 30 years old and so effectively exempt from conscription?

  33. smith
    July 3, 2020 at 6:56 am

    Plus the last thing anyone in the army wants is a hundreds of thousands of people who don’t want to be there.

    Heck, they don’t want a non-insignificant percentage of the people who *do* want to be there.

  34. MC
    July 3, 2020 at 7:50 am

    . . .

    I’m still not particularly for or against conscription. You’d have to consider what good it does vs the cost.

    The fact that it is literal slavery doesn’t bother you?

  35. Dennis, Tiresome Denizen of Central Ohio

    You can see America is f*cked because all their ruling elites these days avoided military service. George H. W. Bush had worse politics but he was a better man than his son.

    Neither Bush was worth a shit as a president. If there’s a correlation between military service and presidential effectiveness I love to have it presented here. Carter, Ford, Reagan, Eisenhower, Nixon and LBJ served. Only Eisenhower and Reagan could be considered successful out of that bunch. Nixon, LBJ and Carter rank among the worst ever.

  36. Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, H W Bush all in military. 1945 to 1992.

    Interestingly, to me at least, is that Kennedy thru Carter were all in the Navy. 5 straight in the Navy.

  37. Any conscription into the armed forces MUST BE WOMEN, until the services are 50-50 men/wimmins.

    Anyone who objects is a racist, sexist, homophobe.

    Lessee if they really want equality.

  38. I am not in favour of conscription, but I would consider compulsory community service with a wide-range of choices for young people, so that they could learn the importance of contributing to society and so complete their socialization.

    The individual doesn’t spring fully formed into existence, but is nurtured by family, education, health provision, food distribution, sewage facilities, welfare benefits etc. Without a culture, there are no individuals. Young people increasingly talk about their rights – ie their claims of entitlement – without appreciating that rights entail duties.

    If you are against any form of compulsory service to help achieve the socialization of the young, what is your response to the culture of therapy, self-actualisation, narcissism and the rejection of limits?

    De Tocqueville argued that democracy was a centrifugal force and that it needed to be balanced by a centripetal force. As the centrifugal social forces gather ever greater impetus, what are the necessary centripretal forces? And how can they be realistically be introduced?

  39. @ MyBurningEars

    You’re right, incentives matter. Sticks & stones, extended service for shit performance, being fed, male grooming products (beard wax), life long benefits blacklist (sorry, deny list) including pension, no vote etc. Something in that lot might get the recalcitrant to put in effort.

  40. @MrYan

    I’m not saying it can’t be done, but to make it work it would definitely have to have real teeth (my point was that you couldn’t use “no more fruit-picking for you then” as the “punishment”, you’d need something more severe) and I think social acceptance of that kind of regime – something visibly more obvious as coerced labour – would run rather lower than some romantic notion of “all in it together” collective service.

  41. @ MyBurningEars

    Yep, all wishful thinking. But then that’s 99% of what’s discussed on here as we have no chance of a half decent set of politicians sorting out the country. And lions are even less likely 8-(

  42. “If you are against any form of compulsory service to help achieve the socialization of the young, what is your response to the culture of therapy, self-actualisation, narcissism and the rejection of limits?”

    Cut the fucking money–the people of the past managed to become reasonably decent without the tinpot tyranny of the state

  43. I was lucky enough to wriggle out of National Service by doing my Ordinary and Higher National certificates in Engineering.Some of my fellow apprentices were not so fortunate.The ones who went in early were posted to places like Hong Kong and loved it, the later ones spent all their time in an ammunition Depot driving fork lifts and hated every minute.

  44. ‘Lessee if they really want equality.’
    Gamecock: You do remind me of when I was still a lowly penpusher. Pat decided to have a go at me by pointing out how unfair it was that the promotion of the young female soldier she was talking to was restricted because she hadn’t served in the infantry, armour or artillery.

    Being a wimp, I politely pointed out that I had no objection to the young lady joining the infantry, armour or artillery. They both protested so I then went on to say that I was happy to cower at the bottom of my nice deep funkhole in the middle of the Simpson desert while they shoved those girls forward to soak up the bullets and explode the mines. But if they promoted people who didn’t know their stuff, the army might bugger up so badly that, not only would they get their silly heads blown off, but my own precious hide might be scratched. So I’d never agree to that.

    Pat shut up. The young lady, the most sensible of the three of us, had continually said ‘I don’t want to join the infantry, armour or artillery.’ But we’d both ignored her.

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