The American Left

Nice that they’re finally being open about it:

Fascism is based not just on a charismatic dictator. Hitler and Mussolini actually delivered for working people.

Hitler ran a terrific welfare state, some of it funded with property looted from Jews.

Hitler sometimes even punished his corporate supporters for mistreating workers. Had a free election been possible in 1937—it wasn’t because he destroyed and terrorized his opposition—Hitler, who cured the Depression faster than FDR, might have been re-elected in a landslide.

52 thoughts on “The American Left”

  1. Bloke in North Dorset

    I have heard it said that Mussolini was a great admirer of FDR and based a lot of his polices on the New Deal and similar other FDR policies.

  2. Kind of low-key astonishing how some American Jews have started openly flaunting their ethnic neuroses since DRUMF descended the golden escalator.

    Who – apart from swastika-panty-larping retards from Bumfuck, Ohio, decrepit Hebraic tenured paranoiacs, and the History Channel – still gives a Teutonic toss about Hitler in 2020?

    Can we obsess over a different long-dead historical tyrant for a change? Personally, I’m investing in esoteric Genghis Khanism.

  3. ‘rather than being down ten points and hoping to steal it.’

    ‘Not just the racism and the immigrant bashing, but actually doing something for suffering American workers.’

    ‘Suppose Trump had gotten serious about supply chains, industrial policy, and made-in-USA jobs instead of just relying on head fakes?’

    ‘Suppose he had actually used his power under the Defense Production Act to save us from the worst of the pandemic?’

    ‘Suppose Trump had been serious about draining the swamp instead of doubling down on the corruption.’

    ‘Suppose he had gotten real about a better road to comprehensive health coverage?’

    ‘Too bad for Trump that he never reads history (in fact, never reads at all).’

    ‘In America, at least on the Republican side, pro-worker economic nationalism is a null set.’

    ‘There are no Republicans today like Teddy Roosevelt.’

    ‘As for Trump, he is too much of a chaotic mess to ever preside over any coherent governing strategy.’

    ‘all the areas where Trump was a fraud’

    ‘could not resist the grift and graft at the soul of today’s Republicans’

    Kuttner is psychotic. This is beyond Orange Man Bad stuff. He is a danger to himself and to the public.

    BWTM: He suggests Trump become Hitler. Maybe the oddest thing I ever read. Surely the fascist Left isn’t going to come out! Or is Kuttner going first?

  4. “Suppose [politician] had done [bunch of stuff he didn’t do], he would be viewed differently.”

    Wow, what an insight.

    Seriously though, this applies to every politician. You pin your hopes on them, you ascribe concrete outcomes to their abstract ideals; then you get hit with disappointment when they inevitably fail to deliver.

  5. Dennis, Pointing Out The Obvious

    Where Kuttner more self-aware, he’d have removed that post by now. Not for what it said, but for what it revealed.

  6. “Hitler, who cured the Depression faster than FDR, might have been re-elected in a landslide.”

    Hahahahahaha.

    This is the school of “Hitler ran a really great economy and was doing a cracking job until he invaded bits of Czechoslovakia”. Most people who think this only do so because of Nazi propaganda like Olympia and films of Hitler on an Autobahn, which show how gleaming and wonderful the place was.

    What Hitler actually did: created a whole load of bonds (known as Mefo bills), used that to fund rearmament and some social programs, with a promise to pay back in a few years, and when the time came to pay was like “cupboard’s bare, motherfuckers, off to war to grab some land and make a new empire”. Germany was a broke ass country when Hitler took over and he made it worse.

    Had he won in 1937, something I doubt because of how much he fucked things like foreign trade, so the average person couldn’t get goods easily, he wouldn’t have lasted long. Once the Mefo bills had to be paid, Germany would have had the equivalent of a junk credit rating.

  7. Dennis, He Who Has A Degree In Economics

    Had he won in 1937, something I doubt because of how much he fucked things like foreign trade, so the average person couldn’t get goods easily, he wouldn’t have lasted long. Once the Mefo bills had to be paid, Germany would have had the equivalent of a junk credit rating.

    Hjalmar Schacht once stated (during a post-war interrogation) that Hitler had no choice but to go war in 1939: The choice was between war and German going bankrupt.

  8. BoM4 – I reckon he’d probably have won another election or maybe two before losing steam due to all the crazy spending and goofy economic policies.

    War was inevitable tho, whether Hitler started it or not, the only reason the krauts were able to overrun so many men and materiel in the early days of Barbarossa was because Stalin had a huge military buildup on the USSR/Reich border ready to invade Western Europe.

    Number of German tanks in 1941: ~6000
    Number of Soviet tanks in 1941: ~20,000

    Stalin, not Hitler, was the single most important figure in 20th century history and the biggest winner from WW2.

  9. everything those guys did was either directly destructive or sticking plaster. And when all the plasters came to be ripped off – it hurt.

  10. I’ve read about a theory that Adolf was aiming for self sufficiency, based everything on the shrinking markets theory – that industrial nations reliant on trade for food would be buggered when ag. surplus countries industrialised. Then they would no longer require the German industrial goods and thus not provide germany food. So you need the agricultural land i.e. ukraine
    applies to oil too. The self sufficiency thing lead him to banning exports and yep at that point you’re absolutely guaranteeing Germans are going to be significantly poorer on that one point alone, even without the war, the totalitarianism , the political control of industry.

  11. I looked at a history of Nazi Germany a few years ago. Christ it was dull. One thing stuck out though: Hitler really had been enormously popular. The population drew a sharp distinction between Adolf and his Partei – of which they had a much lower opinion.

    “I have heard it said that Mussolini was a great admirer of FDR and based a lot of his polices on the New Deal and similar other FDR policies.” The other way round seems more likely.

  12. “The other way round seems more likely.”
    True. In the 1920s and early 1930s Mussolini’s industrial policy was widely admired. (“He made the trains run on time”). Much of FDR’s National Industrial Recovery Act was almost a word-for-word translation of Mussolini’s laws.

  13. Steve 12:25pm: So bored with Hitler.

    Steve 3:07pm: Hitler!

    It’s tough to be uninterested in that era. Haven’t come across the notion that Stalin was looking to invade Western Europe before. My recollection of lurnin is that he left his Western areas lightly defended so as not to provoke Hitler, and then hastily and clumsily transferred loads of assets in the last weeks as the obvious finally got through to him. I agree that Stalin did well out of WWII but I think he was mostly just lucky. His biggest gift being Hitler.

    But hey, you know, whatevs. It’s not like I’m particularly really fascinated or anything.

  14. PJF – YeahIknowbut, there hasn’t been anything new to say about Adolf in a few decades, while Uncle Joe played FDR, Churchill and the squareheads like a fiddle but doesn’t get no respect.

    I’m a fan of Viktor Suvorov’s (highly disputed by Western historians) book, ICEBREAKER.

  15. Trump was 14 points down six weeks ago, 4 points down a week ago and is now reported even.
    He might well get his landslide without ever becoming the Nazi the left so admire.
    Oh and I doubt Mr. Bannon thought Nazism a good idea either.

  16. Trump was never 14 points down, it’s just shy people are now pissed off and willing to talk about who they will vote for.

  17. Dennis,

    “Hjalmar Schacht once stated (during a post-war interrogation) that Hitler had no choice but to go war in 1939: The choice was between war and German going bankrupt.”

    Schacht was right. But the war was also an early decision. The whole nazi thing from the start was building a massive military, invading neighbours and profiting from the land and looting.

  18. @Pat

    This is fun
    Former White House adviser Sebastian Gorka: Without Brexit there is no President Trump
    Without the British public voting to leave the European Union then the US would not have voted for Donald Trump
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzRyyRaaDzA

    Without Obama & Cameron destabilizing Syria and Libya there isn’t a refugee crisis and there isn’t Brexit. They destabilized the ME and Europe

    I’m surprised they didn’t mention how Trump gave a shout-out to Winston Churchill in his speech last night

    US needs Brexit & UK, and the UK needs Trump despite what woke <a href="https://pastebin.com/MqhXh6Tt"William Hague says

    Fascists attack – Scary
    Rand Paul recounts being surrounded by protesters as he left the RNC
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFDx5qTlGjU

    Dems like Labour are the home of violent, murderous thugs

    President Trump promises law and order in RNC speech
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67mlk–hOhw

    When Patricia McCloskey’s weapon arrived in the evidence locker, it was inoperable and logged as such, but Assistant Circuit Attorney Chris Hinckley instructed the employees there to reassemble it so that it would work. ;; Altering evidence is a felony, disgusting communist criminals will cheat come November. ..Welcome to “justice” when the Filthy Democrats in charge. Kangaroo court in action

    Dems & msm encourage the riots, polls say don’t. Dems & msm say Trump encouraged riots and it’s not their fault it’s Trump’s for not stopping them

    I feel sorry for the family’s and business owners in those cities that have had to watch the stuff they have worked so hard for burn to the ground

    .
    Riot in Belfast: Mrs Pcar & I sat on a wall quite close with others watching. It was rioters vs rioters with police in middle. No damage to property, no looting. Next morning you wouldn’t have known it happened. Only evidence was burnt tar on road and some broken glass in gutter.

    You may ask how we knew riot in progress? We heard constant circling heli and decided to go and see what was happening – Stormont Hotel, Newtownards Road

  19. Steve,

    “War was inevitable tho, whether Hitler started it or not, the only reason the krauts were able to overrun so many men and materiel in the early days of Barbarossa was because Stalin had a huge military buildup on the USSR/Reich border ready to invade Western Europe.

    Number of German tanks in 1941: ~6000
    Number of Soviet tanks in 1941: ~20,000

    Stalin, not Hitler, was the single most important figure in 20th century history and the biggest winner from WW2.”

    One aspect of the WW2 and the period before that almost no-one mentions is oil. In 1938, there weren’t a whole lot of places with it. USA, Russia, Romania, a few parts of the arab world, but it was early days. USA stopped selling to Germany because they were a bunch of bastards. This left them with Romania, but the Germans were nervous as it was close to Russia and maybe Russia could invade or bomb them. So, yeah, Hitler was pretty nervous about Stalin piling through Poland into Germany. They could leave Germany without the oil for tanks and so forth.

    What I haven’t understood is why they didn’t go straight for the Caucasus in 1941. Taking cities is kinda irrelevant when your problem is oil supply. And once you have the enemy’s fuel it makes it hard for them to fight back.

  20. BofM4- The other option was Take Egypt (i.e. the Suez canal) and Malta and you have the med. You can then take palestine syria and then iraq/ iran i.e. Oil. One armoured division defending egypt at the time. 22 German ones free after fall of france. Rommel asked for 4 got 1 and with that he did pretty well. And the risk is war with British Empire ..which you are already at war with and though might have a powerful navy, if it aint’ got suez and med resupply points, it’s neutralised.

  21. Bloke in North Dorset

    “ Schacht was right. But the war was also an early decision. The whole nazi thing from the start was building a massive military, invading neighbours and profiting from the land and looting.”

    The build up started long before the Nazi’s got hold of the reigns of power. They started in secret training areas in Russia as early as 192os and started rotating officers and men through the training throughout the 1920s so that whilst they nominally had a small Army, they in fact had a very large well trained reserve. All that was needed was the equipment, that’s when the Nazis took over.

  22. Bloke in North Dorset

    I forgot to add the Soviets also allowed the German Air Force to do the same at Lipetsk from the mid 1920s.

  23. BoM4 – One aspect of the WW2 and the period before that almost no-one mentions is oil.

    Def. an underrated factor in the European theatre, also the quality of fuels available to the Germans was poorer than what the RAF was able to obtain from the Yanks. Having invented the oil industry, the Septics turned out to be remarkably resourceful at refining and catalytic cracking and all sorts of other clever ways to turn fossilised plankton into useful products.

    High-octane BAM 100 made such a difference to the performance of British fighters (up to 30% extra horsepower from the same engine compared to the 87-octane fuel used previously) that it was almost a strategic weapon in itself, and might well have tipped the balance of the Battle of Britain.

    All thanks to some chemists working for Standard Oil of New Jersey. So basically the oil industry defeated fascism. What larks.

  24. Democrats and Biden do nothing to discourage hate mobs

    BLM. has destroyed itself through violence and set race relations back decades

    @6:18 Massachusetts Dem Congress woman openly calls for violence, same as Maxine Waters did. Evil fascist scum

    Brandon Straka was subjected to homophobic threats and attacked by BLM activists as he left the White House RNC

    Biden Dem’s Rule: You’re not LGBT+ if you vote Trump

    A tale of two futures
    – Positivity, success and aspiration – Trump
    – Negativity, failure and misery – Biden

    Cough
    Kamala Harris’s big con30 Jan 2019

  25. “What I haven’t understood is why they didn’t go straight for the Caucasus in 1941.”

    Very true. Could have still gone after Baku in ’42, instead of Stalingrad, Massengrab!

    Von Bock and Guderian insisted on going for Moscow in ’41. Ooops! Hitler mistakenly gave them their way.

  26. @Mr Ecks

    Re “We Must Not Fear”

    Mock Them

    Wear a Mask and…
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWLXiMiBiPo

    … Ignore the science
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3RgcfIYnrg

    Be a sheep
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sk-qqmlXlzQ

    imo we need a new cabinet and PM; Maybe someone like

    Red Wall ex-miner Conservative MP Lee Anderson has spoken about how he has been branded a “fat racist” for speaking out about illegal immigration
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhtBxn970V0

    Being called a fat racist is highly offensive and a hate crime. Play them at their own game and prosecute them

    Labour supports human trafficking ….. that’s why they don’t want to stop the slave labour going on in labour run Cities like Leicester

    Why not use their vast COVID powers to stop the migrants
    The government can pass covid so called laws in quick enough, stop talking about changing law – Do It Now

  27. America restricting oil sales to Japan was a factor in Japan declaring war, but seems a bizaire way of reacting. There’s no oil in Hawaii, it’s millions of miles away, and you’ve now just pissed off somebody who previously was ignoring you capturing the oil fields in East Asia. The one potential threat is the American Philipines, but they are volcanic – like Japan – and non-oil-bearing, it’s the Malay/Borneo basin that’s the oil fields. With care Japan could have ignored America, kept away from the Philipines and avoided a Pacific war.

  28. Actually possibly tell a lie there. Not sure they made anything there that could bomb, but certainly military aircraft.

    They had another factory in Turkey though, similar deal, and at least the Turkish production of this one was given bomb racks though maybe not the Russian:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_A_35

  29. What I haven’t understood is why they didn’t go straight for the Caucasus in 1941. Taking cities is kinda irrelevant when your problem is oil supply. And once you have the enemy’s fuel it makes it hard for them to fight back.

    That was the plan. Then Hitler split off a large chunk of Army Group South to quickly take Stalingrad as they were going past.

  30. “@Steve

    Stalin had a huge military buildup on the USSR/Reich border ready to invade Western Europe.

    Number of German tanks in 1941: ~6000
    Number of Soviet tanks in 1941: ~20,000”

    Well, to be realistic

    Soviet tanks – 20,000 of which around 1,400 were T-34s or KV-1s, with the rest being obsolete piles of junk.

    German tanks – 6,000 of which around 2,200 were Pzr IIIs and IVs with the rest, whilst not actually being obsolete piles of junk, being pretty crap.

    Fairly reliable records show that the soviets lost seven tanks for every German loss during 1941.

  31. There’s no oil in Hawaii, it’s millions of miles away, and you’ve now just pissed off somebody who previously was ignoring you capturing the oil fields in East Asia.

    jgh, the idea wasn’t to invade Hawaii, just to cripple the Pacific Fleet so that the US accepted the fait accomplii of Japan owning SE Asia. It is interesting that their big entry into WWII proper pretty much counts as one of the stupidest underestimates of an enemy ever. You’re right, it was basically a fucked decision.

    The attempted invasion of Midway was much the same reasoning, they wanted to provide some strategic depth and make it hard for the US to interfere.

  32. Pcar–There is twitter talk of back-bench Torytrash deposing Blojob–but my guess is the CSMF scum would use that to sabotage Brexit. Johnson might still try to sabotage Brexit himself but my thought is that Cummings is holding that line–hence the talk of his going 31/12/20 –once the job’s done. Any Johnson climbdown would be far too visible and ta-ta Tories.

    Any replacement of Blojob would be even worse scum than Johnson in terms of betrayal. A real Brexiteer we wont get but EU snake Gove –or more likely his wife who wears the pants.

    Sickening that Johnson is as fucking useless as he is.

  33. Yes the Germans commissioned submarines from the Dutch.

    Moscow, however, was far from an irrelevance. The seat of government is always a strategic target but more importantly all the rails led to Moscow. Control of Moscow splits the opposition into fragments, no way to move troops. But they started late (because of Mussolini’s balkan adventure) and went for Leningrad as well, which was not so important. The Germans also failed to interrupt the evacuation of the factories from Moscow, probably from a failed appreciation of the scale of it.

  34. I’d argue that the person who did the UK the biggest favour was Franco.

    Suppose the Reds had won in Spain. In 1940, after the fall of France, Hitler would have sent the panzers over the Pyrenees, crossed to French North Africa, taken Malta by assault from the south and the north, and driven straight for Egypt.

    Once the British fleet had fled through the Suez Canal, Hitler could have used sea transport to support his invasion of Syria, and subsequent capture of the oil fields of Iraq, Iran and the Gulf states.

    Had he then invaded Russia, the Italian fleet, and such German ships as he’d managed to send to the Mediterranean could have entered the Black Sea and disposed of Russia’s Black Sea fleet. This should have allowed him to seize Russia’s Caucasus oil fields. Though I’ll admit the Russians still had some available in the Urals.

  35. Liking the historical stuff. I’m detecting a worstall version of godwin – Godworstalls law?- any mention of Hitler in a thread will inevitably lead to a well informed historical discussion of world war II.

  36. I see no indication that Mr AH ever cared about the Mediterranean. He saw everything from a perspective of mainland Europe and the East. Not global strategy, local.

    His mistake may have been to rely on Benito to look after it. Or indeed to be involved with that faker in the first place.

  37. Andrew – but Trotsky was ultimately proven right, quantity = quality. See also the priority Stalin accorded weapons systems like the Ilyushin Il-2, which had no defensive purpose, and the deliberate abandonment of their own expensively constructed Stalin Line after their dirty dealings with Ribbentrop.

    Suvorov, like many Russians, is eccentric, but I think he’s right about the big picture – the USSR and Nazi Germany were both inherently expansionist and if the little corporal hadn’t beaten Stalin to the punch, the Red Army was going West like that Pet Shop Boys song.

    jgh – there’s no way in Heck the Yanks were going to allow the Japs – who they regarded as little better than talking monkeys (Admiral Perry had easily humiliated the Nipponese less than a century before) – to own the Pacific. The US was never at any point “isolationist”, manifest destiny had grown into a nascent American empire from Puerto Rico to the Philippines.

    On the Japanese side, as Ltw says, they fatally misunderestimated the roundeyes’ will to fight. They thought of whites in general as being materialistic, decadent cowards who would soon give up rather than face the hardships and sacrifices of total war.

    Like Goebbels, they had no idea just how savage total war in the age of massed bomber fleets would turn out to be.

  38. rhoda, Hitler was interested in mid east oil. Med and Egypt were not the goal, they were a path.

    “seems a bizaire way of reacting. There’s no oil in Hawaii, it’s millions of miles away, and you’ve now just pissed off somebody who previously was ignoring you capturing the oil fields in East Asia.”

    Correct, jgh. Yamamoto, having studied in the U.S., knew about the idiot Beauregard shooting up Ft Sumter and starting the War Between the States. The admiral warned his superiors, but they told him to go ahead. He followed their orders and did the best he could.

    “jgh, the idea wasn’t to invade Hawaii, just to cripple the Pacific Fleet so that the US accepted the fait accomplii of Japan owning SE Asia.”

    Kicking somebody way bigger than you in the knee is usually a bad decision. I don’t know where Japan got the idea that the U.S. would say, “Okay, we’ll stay out of it now that you have attacked us.” But that’s what they did.

    Much is made of the Japs not catching the aircraft carriers at Honolulu. Had they gotten them, it would have just delayed the inevitable a year or two. We didn’t beat them with those 3, we did it with the many more we built afterwards.

  39. And every Japanese success in taking territory increased its exposure to attack at any given point. They couldn’t defend it all.

  40. “And every Japanese success in taking territory increased its exposure to attack at any given point. They couldn’t defend it all.”

    Yes, and they had the odd belief that an island fort provided defense. A runway was useful, but the U.S. just went around many of their island fortresses. No reason to engage them, just sail around them. “Island Hopping.”

    Similar in Russia. German rapid advances resulted in long supply lines and insurgent actions far behind the front lines.

  41. Much is made of the Japs not catching the aircraft carriers at Honolulu. Had they gotten them, it would have just delayed the inevitable a year or two. We didn’t beat them with those 3, we did it with the many more we built afterwards.

    It took 4 years and the development of nuclear weapons to get Japan to surrender though even so. If Midway had gone badly (which kind of depended on those existing carriers, not the ones in the pipeline) you would have been looking at more than a year or two. Enough time for perhaps an accommodation to be reached. Japan gambled on this and were wrong but it wasn’t really bad strategy. They underestimated US resolve and production capacity, but if they had secured Midway and Australia any counterattack would have been very hard.

  42. @rhoda

    “Yes the Germans commissioned submarines from the Dutch.”

    Having browsed around a bit, I think it’s more like the 1920s German navy funded various German firms to run a front company in the Netherlands: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NV_Ingenieurskantoor_voor_Scheepsbouw

    They couldn’t actually commission and operate their own subs as it would be an obvious treaty breach. But they designed subs for various clients (Spain, Turkey, USSR, Finland) so could keep up with the technology and develop prototypes for their own U-boats for when rearmament began, and it enabled German naval types to take part in trials and testing. (The actual construction took place in other shipyards in the Netherlands, Spain, Finland and Russia.)

    They similarly had torpedo research programmes based in Sweden and, abortively, in Spain: https://digitalcommons.georgiasouthern.edu/etd/599/

    They did order fighter aircraft from the Netherlands in the 20s though, in another treaty breach. But this one they could keep quiet as the order was supposedly from Argentina and the planes were shipped to the secret flying school in Russia that BIND mentioned…

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fokker_D.XIII

  43. !”Kicking somebody way bigger than you in the knee is usually a bad decision. I don’t know where Japan got the idea that the U.S. would say, “Okay, we’ll stay out of it now that you have attacked us.” But that’s what they did. ”

    Sino Russian war 1904-05?

  44. ‘I see no indication that Mr AH ever cared about the Mediterranean. He saw everything from a perspective of mainland Europe and the East. Not global strategy, local.’

    Rhoda, I think that’s attributing too much rationality to Hitler. I’d say his outrage that his intervention in the Spanish civil war had been defeated would have led to his attack on Spain, and to justify it he would have had to adopt the Raeder plan.

  45. ‘It took 4 years and the development of nuclear weapons to get Japan to surrender though even so.’

    You overrate the nuclear weapons. Conventional bombing resumed when the Japanese didn’t surrender. It was the Russian invasion of Sakhalin that triggered their surrender. The bombs were likely a consideration, but they were hardly the trigger.

    As the treaty was signed on the deck of USS Missouri, WWII fighting was still going on.

  46. “If Midway had gone badly (which kind of depended on those existing carriers, not the ones in the pipeline) you would have been looking at more than a year or two.”

    The loss at Midway was due to Japanese Kabuki Theater. The military choreographed an elaborate dance. All they needed to do was to get in their ships and go over there.

    German’s made same mistake at Kursk. Instead of just attacking, they developed elaborate plan, and spent time planning. Time the Russians used to great effect to set up defenses.

    “Enough time for perhaps an accommodation to be reached.”

    True. Japan would have seen their ass kicking coming. Waiting for their end, like Argentines on the Falklands. The longer it took, the more effort the Americans had to put in it, the bigger their ass kicking. The Japanese would have sued for peace.

    “More than a year or two.”

    Call it 3 or 4. It would have still happened. I think sooner, but we just speculate. NFW the U.S. would let little ass Japan push us around.

  47. I found a relevant quote I had been looking for:

    “A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week.

    George S. Patton

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