Quite so Polly, quite so

Beyond economic damage, the greatest injury is and always was at the Irish border. No deal means that border must close: the EU single market can’t tolerate a flapping open back door.

That’s an EU problem for the EU to solve. Ain’t ours. We’ve left, remember?

65 thoughts on “Quite so Polly, quite so”

  1. off topic but Spud again shows how up to date his tax expertise is when talking about capital allowances….

    “Then, broadly speaking (and there are nuances to this that do not require explanation here), they get 20% allowances”

    The standard rate of capital allowances has been 18% since 2012.

  2. The endless claims that the EU’s borders are sacrosanct and must be hermetically sealed always bring to mind the story of Penka the Cow who (unlike the UK) managed to wander out of the EU without anyone noticing.

  3. Well, they want checks to stop our poisonous food getting in. But what do we want checks for? If we don’t put checks on the Irish border, what’s to stop them moving the Jungle Camps to Dundalk?

  4. Meissen, isn’t the bigger problem that Europe hasn’t been doing enough to keep those borders sealed? Given that half the population of Africa seems to move in every year claming “asylum”.

    Wouldn’t one of the benefits of not needing customs officers between Spain and Portugal or France and Italy be that you have freed resources to turn back boats between Greece and Turkey?

  5. That’s an EU problem for the EU to solve. Ain’t ours. We’ve left, remember?

    Especially since this is a “problem” manufactured by the EU itself. Nope. Let the fuckers deal with that themselves. After all the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic is just a line on a map…

  6. The endless claims that the EU’s borders are sacrosanct and must be hermetically sealed always bring to mind the story of Penka the Cow who (unlike the UK) managed to wander out of the EU without anyone noticing.

    Fortunately Penka the Cow was saved by the public outcry against her threatened butchery. It probably helped that she was pregnant at the time of her “illegal” border crossing.

    I seem to recall even Dr. No. himself, the Reverend Ian Paisley said “The people of Northern Ireland are British, but the cows are Irish”.

    https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/paisleys-irish-cows-quip-may-be-beginnings-of-a-solution-to-backstop-issue-pm-suggests-38471943.html

  7. EU countries have been opening and shutting doors with each other, willy-nilly, for six months. Without once asking Barnier’s permission.

    This is, and has has always been a problem manufactured by the EU, in bad faith.

    It took the BDSM vices of our own political class to indulge it, tho.

  8. M’Lud,

    We left because we want to control the flow of people into Britain. Having a wide open border with the EU won’t enable us to stop EUers that we don’t want coming into our country. That line on a map needs to stop being just a line on a map and needs to be patrolled by border force with passport checks on everyone entering the country.

    If it isn’t what was the point in leaving?

    We need a hard border in Ireland from January 1 2021. End of.

  9. Migrant camps at Dundalk sound like a good idea. The smugglers wouldn’t get rich presumably, and people wouldn’t die making a risky crossing. No-one would need to give the migrants pocket money to restart their lives when the pretendy claimants were deported.

  10. At present, goods for sale moving from NI to the Republic have to be legal for sale under EU rules. Once the UK leaves, this would still apply. You don’t need a border, just big fines.

    For anyone who thinks this is insufficient:

    1) It’s how it works now
    2) It happens elsewhere with, for example, ecommerce from the US to the Crimea (not allowed). Shipping to denied parties is also banned (those on the sanctioned list)

    Smuggling will happen (gosh! in Ireland!), however it won’t be Tesco or anyone else significant breaking the rules.

  11. “We need a hard border in Ireland from January 1 2021. End of.”

    No. You need to deal with whatever the reality becomes. The need for a hard border is unlikely.

  12. Commander, if we can’t (won’t) enforce a hard border from atop massive ramparts this side of a 21-mile moat, then I doubt we’ll prevent Paddy and Seamus smuggling moonshine, or whatever it is they get up to.

    Anyway, my priority was always accountability.

    I’m generally untroubled by Euro imports. It’s the rapey, stabby Vibrants vot trouble me.

  13. “We need a hard border in Ireland from January 1 2021. End of.”

    Well, let’s monitor the situation. Right now, not a problem. Ireland and UK are pretty similar culturally and economically. And Ireland isn’t in Schengen.

    If there’s a move towards Ireland taking their share of Somali rocket scientists to enrich the place, or if they’re forced to join Schengen, we need to address it.

    The next decade could be really interesting for Ireland. Tax, refugees and with UK leaving, more of their trade being outside the EU. Maybe see more of a push for Irexit.

  14. ‘It’s the rapey, stabby Vibrants vot trouble me.’

    I’m appalled M’Lud. I thought only I was wicked enough to feel like that.

  15. or if they’re forced to join Schengen

    Hard to see Schengen as a solution for anything related to Ireland. Sure, it might make transit of people between Holland and Germany a bit easier, since there are no East German style border guards demanding “Papiere, bitte”.

    If not the residents of Northern Ireland then who exactly would these Schengen visitors be? Perhaps the visitors from the thrice-weekly sailings from Dublin->Cherbourg? Hardly what I would describe as a pressing need.

  16. John Galt: since there are no East German style border guards demanding “Papiere, bitte”.

    My experience was that there was a lot more to it than Papiere: the back seat was removed from the car, the mirrored trolley rolled underneath and the boot and bonnet were raised for a detailed inspection. There wasn’t much “Bitte” about it either.

  17. Commander, if we can’t (won’t) enforce a hard border from atop massive ramparts this side of a 21-mile moat, then I doubt we’ll prevent Paddy and Seamus smuggling moonshine, or whatever it is they get up to.

    It wasn’t so long ago we tried a hard border with watchtowers, barbed wire and the army. Stopped very little and certainly never stopped Paddy and Seamus.

  18. It wasn’t so long ago we tried a hard border with watchtowers, barbed wire and the army. Stopped very little and certainly never stopped Paddy and Seamus.

    Quite the opposite, it antagonised the locals and led to support for the IRA and other extremists. The extremists on all sides are marginalised and without support. Lets not open that can of worms again. If the EU or the Republic wants to do it then that’s a matter for them. Let the extremists bomb their offices and hotels this time around instead of those in Belfast and London.

  19. The Irish border problem was one of many created by Brexit ( ie people like you) not by the EU and certainly not by me. As the Uk was still formally committed to the peace process this meant that Brexit had yet another circle to square.
    This obliged Theresa May to hold contradictory positions, being committed to Irish peace, and to leaving the single market which meant Seamus O-Timing-Device was back in business. The EU did not ]accept that when the Uk made problems they should be left to solve them ( not unreasonably) and so demanded a solution form the Uk as part of negotiations. This lead to an impasse.
    That Gordian knot was sliced when Boris agreed to stick the border ( which if you recall was magic one that youn= could not see anyway) in the Irish Sea and N Ireland more or less in the single market.

    Hooray ,,, he got a deal and many people did not care what it was so long as the chaos went away . He took the political scoobie snacks by the barrel thinking all he had done was sell out the Unionists and .,.after all fuck them eh with an 80- seat majority.

    Sadly and inevitably given the cakeist demands of the fantasist loons involved so no Deal beneath which his cheat could be hidden emerged and so the reality of the border hoved into view
    Amazingly it seems all that miles and miles of garbage about the magic border turns out to be (gasp) not true.
    Now his calculation is that the visible disaster crashing over Northern Ireland is worse than just pretending he never did it .
    That puts the border back on Ireland …a new conflict and zero chance of any sort of agreement with our largest partners and suppliers …well ever really
    Really good job guys, death poverty shame stupidity .. you must all be so proud , can you not , all of you just fuck off somewhere just for two weeks in the Summer . Brexit Butlins ..bang nails into your own knees – contest . ..attend events that whilst promised do not happen …

    You would love it

  20. John Galt,

    “Sure, it might make transit of people between Holland and Germany a bit easier, since there are no East German style border guards demanding “Papiere, bitte”.”

    I remember driving and doing InterRail around Europe and this was never a big deal. Driving was mostly a douane waving you through from Belgium to France and on trains, a guy just got on around the border and did a cursory check of your passport. But it had the advantage that if any criminals were on the move or something suspicious, they could stop people. It made it harder for illegal immigrants to get around.

    The big problem with Schengen is that the members of it are supposed to “take responsibility for controlling the external borders on behalf of the other Schengen States”. People spoke at the time of a ring of steel, so all the internal members could trust it. It never happened, particularly if a country realises that they’re mostly not going to be staying there for long and instead heading to Germany, UK or Sweden.

  21. Jack C said:
    “Smuggling will happen (gosh! in Ireland!), however it won’t be Tesco or anyone else significant breaking the rules”

    Indeed. Smuggling happens anyway, particularly on excise goods (booze, tobacco) where there are different duty levels even within the EU. But most goods do and will go through the normal channels, will have the correct approvals and pay the correct taxes.

  22. Commander Jameson said:
    “If we don’t put checks on the Irish border, what’s to stop them moving the Jungle Camps to Dundalk?”

    The Irish, hopefully. They have to let in EU nationals, but since they’re not in Shengen they can have border checks and don’t have to let in anyone who doesn’t have an EU passport.

    Hopefully we have quietly offered the Irish government a bit of money to help pay for enforcing the Irish – EU border, but given the geography it can’t be that difficult.

  23. “Sure, it might make transit of people between Holland and Germany a bit easier, since there are no East German style border guards demanding “Papiere, bitte”.”

    Just as an aside, neither North nor South Holland share a land border with Germany – so I’m not sure where they would station the border guards….

  24. Hopefully we have quietly offered the Irish government a bit of money to help pay for enforcing the Irish – EU border, but given the geography it can’t be that difficult.

    I bloody hope not. The whole EU/UK border issue on the island of Ireland was an EU manufactured poisoned pill to try and prevent us leaving and when that didn’t work to cripple post-departure negotiations like the UK/EU Trade Deal. I don’t want the UK to be tainted by any of that. If the EU and Ireland want to put up a border, that’s on them. They can deal with the consequences.

    The Irish border problem was one of many created by Brexit ( ie people like you) not by the EU and certainly not by me.

    All this hoo-har conveniently forgets that the Good Friday agreements were bi-lateral agreements between the UK and the Republic of Ireland and had fuck all to do with the EU except tangentially because both were EU members at the time, so Face Painter can fuck right off with his disingenuous “BRExit created the problem” bollocks.

  25. Hopefully we have quietly offered the Irish government a bit of money to help pay for enforcing the Irish – EU border, but given the geography it can’t be that difficult.

    Hopefully we’ve made it clear to the paddies that they’d better secure their borders, or they can wave goodbye to the Common Travel Area (which should be abolished anyway, but we might as well weaponise it first).

  26. Dennis, Woker'n The Rest Of You Fucks

    Really good job guys, death poverty shame stupidity

    More like ‘death poverty shame’, Newmania. You’ve cornered the market on stupidity… Because only someone as stupid as you could conflate a middling to minor border issue in need of some negotiation into an existential crisis.

    Hyperbole much?

  27. Just as an aside, neither North nor South Holland share a land border with Germany – so I’m not sure where they would station the border guards….

    Fair point, albeit amounting to little more than pendantry.

    Limburg then, since I’ve actually caught the train from Venlo,NL to Essen,DE more than once.

  28. “All this hoo-har conveniently forgets that the Good Friday agreements were bi-lateral agreements between the UK and the Republic of Ireland and had fuck all to do with the EU except tangentially because both were EU members at the time, so Face Painter can fuck right off with his disingenuous “BRExit created the problem” bollocks.”

    Firstly, there is no mention of borders anywhere in the Belfast Agreement text. This has been said repeatedly. Secondly, the lowering of borders was a result of that agreement happening, not a cause of it. Thirdly, I loathe this idea that some treaty with a foreign power stands in the way of what was agreed by plebiscite. You work for us, not the Irish and we told you what to do.

    I’ve generally avoided this word, but I really do think that Major and Blair are utter traitors. They know this makes sod all difference to Northern Ireland, that Ireland’s a whole different place to what it was in the 1970s, more liberal capitalism than Kinder, Kirche, Kuche. I doubt most politicians in the South even want the north, considering it’s one of the chavviest parts of the UK and everyone would be forking out 10% more income tax to pay for them.

  29. I doubt most politicians in the South even want the north, considering it’s one of the chavviest parts of the UK and everyone would be forking out 10% more income tax to pay for them.

    If there was some kind of unification deal it would probably involve continuous transfers of wonga from the UK->Ireland to cover the difference in the Irish budget along with the relocation of what the Southern Irish would describe as “Unionist troublemakers” back to the UK mainland.

    Can’t see Irish unification happening any time soon…

  30. “If we don’t put checks on the Irish border, what’s to stop them moving the Jungle Camps to Dundalk?”
    That would not be in either Ireland’s interests nor the UK’s. At present, the UK and Ireland are already in a Common Travel Area separate from Schengen, and both the UK and Ireland intend for this to continue. Nevertheless, there is not currently a Dundalk Camp, or a Dundalk Corridor. That’s because Ireland quite rightly suspects that once the migrants reach an English speaking country with more generous benefits than the UK, then they will stop migrating and settle down. So they make sure that migrants never reach Ireland.

  31. I remember on my LSE pol sc degree being told by an Irish-American lecturer that the attitude of the Republic’s governing class towards Britain in NornIrn was, “please leave, but for God’s sake stay”.

  32. @Edward Ludd

    Yes, “fuck off but leave your wallet”

    I suspect the province of toytown Austria Hungary on the island of Ireland might have rather more pressing problems in the next few years.

  33. Did an intramural course there, Mr B, as an undergrad.

    Full of soap-dodgers, grungsters, twats, sitting on the lawn in, er, sit-ins.

  34. BoM4

    considering it’s one of the chavviest parts of the UK and everyone would be forking out 10% more income tax to pay for them.

    Not sure it’s the chavviest, but agree the South couldn’t afford us.

  35. …the South couldn’t afford us.

    Which is probably the best thing all around, an acknowledgement that partition shouldn’t have happened, but the best solution is to let sleeping dogs lie.

  36. So Much For Subtlety

    John Galt September 15, 2020 at 11:17 am – “Quite the opposite, it antagonised the locals and led to support for the IRA and other extremists.”

    Oh bollocks. This is just the standard Guardian line that all efforts to defend ourselves causes terrorism.

    “The extremists on all sides are marginalised and without support.”

    Really? Before the Good Friday agreement Catholics mainly voted for the SDLP. Who do they vote for now? The Protestants mainly voted forvth4 Ulster Unionist Party. Now who represents them?

    The Good Friday agreement may even have brought the IRA to power in the Republic. How are they marginalised?

  37. The Good Friday agreement may even have brought the IRA to power in the Republic. How are they marginalised?

    Because you don’t make peace with allies or friends. You have to make peace with the enemy, which is exactly what happened with the Good Friday Agreement.

    I’m not happy that IRA terrorists got to walk to freedom or that those that were on the run were effectively pardoned, but that is the price we had to pay for peace. I’m sure the IRA think they got screwed also, but fuck those guys.

    For all of it’s historical links and involvement Sinn Féin are no longer the political wing of the IRA.

    My family lost members to the troubles. My grandfathers brother was murdered by the Black and Tans in the Civil War despite being little more than an awestruck teenager with little understanding of the world. The family farm near Newtownards was burnt out and destroyed in the late 1960’s and my uncle lost an arm to an IRA hand-grenade in his school playground. It was this which was the last straw and caused my family to flee Ireland before I was born.

    I have literally nothing but contempt for the IRA and Sinn Féin, but swallowing that contempt and trying to find it in your heart to forgive, but never forget is the only road to peace. It literally doesn’t work any other way.

  38. The Republic has no shortage of immigrants already.

    The Common Travel Area has to go. Eire should have no advantage over any other country, should it? I mean, they ain’t grateful.

    I went to NI once or twice. It rained every day and they gave me a medal for it.

  39. Re: the metathreat that we’re not allowed to have a real, meaningful Brexit because SCARY IRISH MEN WITH GUNS

    I really doubt it, but even if the IRA weren’t fat and old and the younger generation more interested in whatever it is Millennials do (not having sex?) instead of making artisan handcrafted incendiary devices, I’d say to hell with this.

    Because terrorists (real or imaginary) don’t get a veto over British democracy.

    Tbh tho, we probably should give the military conquest of the Republic of Ireland another look. Not for any particularly anti-Irish or colonialist reason, but because it would own the libs and we’d probably get some hilarious new material out of Newms.

    Ireland only has about 7,000 troops, no tanks, and a couple of biplanes or something. Maybe we can lend them some Gurkhas to make it a proper fight.

  40. Tbh tho, we probably should give the military conquest of the Republic of Ireland another look. Not for any particularly anti-Irish or colonialist reason, but because it would own the libs and we’d probably get some hilarious new material out of Newms.

    Sure, the lulz would be great to start with, but the British have been here before with Ireland and unless you’re prepared for a never-ending insurgency supported by plastic Paddies in Boston, US and EU sanctions and all the rest of that Malarkey, then you’ll end up exactly where you were last time, desperately looking for a way to end it and no idea quite how to do so.

    Maybe you should do what you should have done in 1918? Left Ireland to the Irish and supported emigration elsewhere for the English and Scottish protestants that you moved there in the first place.

    Partition hasn’t worked anywhere that the British have tried it, from Ireland to India, Malaya to Cypress. Everywhere it has led to the same eternal squabbling over ethnic divisions, religion and tribal prejudice.

    Maybe try NOT INVADING anywhere for a couple of hundred years and see how that works for you?

  41. John – Maybe try NOT INVADING anywhere for a couple of hundred years and see how that works for you?

    No, that’s BORING.

    Anyway, we’re overdue another European war. Can’t let Slavs have all the fun, and I have little faith in those ruminant-botherers on the Bosporus.

    Think of the films and computer games we’ll get out of operation Call Of Potato: Guinness Ops. Trust me on this, it’ll be brilliant and all over by Christmas.

  42. I was of the understanding that military intelligence had thoroughly penetrated (fnar!) the PIRA and it was only a matter of time before they were neutralised.
    The Good Friday Agreement came in the nick of time for Sinn Fein and the IRA high command, giving them a political ‘out’ that sorta worked for everyone, and didn’t involve spending the rest of their days doing dirty protests in the H-Blocks.
    Since 9-11, the funding taps from the colonies were turned off, and I can’t imagine them ever being turned back on again. I would think that lots of places in Yankistan like Boston are about as Oirish as London is nowadays.

  43. Yeah, I know Kilburn and Cricklewood well.

    The drunken Paddies have been out bred and ethnically cleansed.

    Won’t somebody care?

  44. “Partition cypress?”

    Yeah, they tried to do that in the 80’s, Christians vs Muslims vs Jews vs everyone else.

    Didn’t turn out too well.

  45. @ TMB
    Replacing sheets of plasterboard to divide up rooms, I suppose. Thinly sliced branches in a lattice pattern. Not as good as plasterboard for deadening sound but better-looking.

  46. @john77

    certainly, or it might be an arboreal tip for those like Polly with a summer residence or messuage in Tuscany or Umbria?

  47. John Galt September 15, 2020 at 3:42 pm – “Because you don’t make peace with allies or friends. You have to make peace with the enemy, which is exactly what happened with the Good Friday Agreement.”

    Blah blah blah blah. If you want to defend selling out the national interest and the people of Ulster, then please do. But don’t pretend that it was in any way anything other than a surrender. We did not marginalise the extremists. We handed them a victory and the Nationalists of Ireland have responded by giving them power.

    Normally you make peace with the widows and orphans of your enemies. When they come begging you to stop hurting them. That is the sort of peace I can support. And the sort of peace we could have had except the British government was determined to lose.

    “I have literally nothing but contempt for the IRA and Sinn Féin, but”

    What is the rule of thumb – Everything before the “but” is a lie. The fact you accuse Britain of invading proves where your heart lies. I do not believe in forgiveness. I believe in hanging. We can make peace with the graveyard.

  48. Bloke in Germany September 15, 2020 at 6:30 pm – “Didn’t turn out too well.”

    Compared to what? Compared to the violence in all those places before partition, how are they doing?

    Partition works. It is unfortunate that many of the peoples of the world hate each other. But they do. The solution is ethnic homogeneous states. Which greatly reduces violence. Asking very different populations to live near each other just means endless war. Look at Birmingham.

  49. John Galt

    The Empire wasn’t held together by violence and force, not from the Victorian era onwards anyway. The messy border disputes already existed. Muslims and Hindus always despised each other in India and occupied different geographical areas but the Empire superseded these issues with a powerful establishment and bureaucracy. After WW2 Britain just wanted out and the border disputes flared up. Other empires which ruled with an in fist did not leave behind such concerns because they had violently resolved then long before. Portugal left behind the massive country of Brazil with no differences left to fight each other for. France left behind vast African countries that were for all intents and purposes French.

  50. If the Irish won the UK/Ireland battle it has brought them little gain.

    They have–like us but in an even more intense and imminent way–a death struggle on hand with a NWO scum crew who are quite brazen about their plans to turn Eire into Africa . And put on them eco-freak shite including forcing them to live in urban areas. So the Globo scum can enjoy country parks no doubt.

    The IRA were Marxist scum. The Globo elite aren’t but Marxist scum are their agents.

    So it remains to be seen if “Erin Go Bragh” is any more than booze-reeking hot air.

  51. Oh–ok . Sorry. Funny I was just pointing out irony to Asiaseen. These days it is hard to tell parody from serious.

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