And so the demands move on

In a message of support to the conference, Elton John said: “The failure of many churches to welcome, accept and include LGBTQ+ people creates stigma, loneliness, fear and denial, causing lasting damage to their wellbeing and mental health.” Churches must be safe and affirming, he said.

Jayne Ozanne, a prominent figure in the Church of England and a speaker at the conference, said spiritual abuse of LGBT people was “the next big scandal” for the church following decades of disgrace over child sexual abuse.

“It’s a ticking timebomb. When I first spoke out, I felt I was the only voice. Now I’m one of thousands, and people are feeling more and more emboldened to tell their stories,” she said.

Campaigners say charismatic and evangelical churches that tell LGBT people they are an abomination or possessed by demonic forces are driving some towards self-harm and suicide.

Sigh.

There’s the obvious point that certain mosques are going to be less than welcoming of all of this. But more than that is the grasping ambition of the entire idea. You’ve got to change the Word of God – as believed, whether it’s true or not – because Woken SS.

I seem to recall that certain totalitarian movements of the last century made the same sort of demands….

34 thoughts on “And so the demands move on”

  1. Yarp.

    Campaigners say charismatic and evangelical churches that tell LGBT people they are an abomination or possessed by demonic forces are driving some towards self-harm and suicide.

    I’ve heard this one for decades, but is it actually true?

    So the tranny suicide rate seems to be holding steady despite officially mandated tranny celebration. Mentally ill people in the grip of a fetish that’s consuming their lives and destroying their bodies don’t need Glenn Hoddle to want to neck themselves.

    Dunno about the batty boys, but I reckon they have a bigger problem with rampant alcoholism and drug abuse in the gay scene.

    There’s probably a big overlap between mental illness and LGBTQIAWTF in general, because we didn’t evolve to be genetic dead ends and brain problems tend to travel together in a party bus. Same way as people don’t tend to have just the one addiction.

    But this is all the fault of… a handful of Nigerian evangelicals and the Jehovah’s Witnesses? Nah.

  2. charismatic and evangelical churches

    Just say ‘black churches’ and be done with it. They aren’t normally this coy.

  3. Last century? Have you missed the recent CCP rewrite of the Bible, and its version of the woman taken in adultery?

  4. There’s the obvious point that certain mosques are going to be less than welcoming of all of this

    While Elton is brave enough to speak Truth to the Power of the CofE and those funny Black churches where they make a racket, I’m not sure he’s up for taking on people who are eager to saw his head off.

    Be brave against the correct people and hoover up the acclaim instead.

  5. On balance I’d be happier being dictated to by a bunch of poofs than by Nazis. But the decision is getting more nuanced day bay day.

  6. ‘But if you want to be ruled by Nazis, there are none.’ I’d argue that the difference between German and Great Russian national socialism was that the Nazis attempted to co-opt rather than exterminate the business and rural classes. Plus their virulent racism.

    The anti-colonialist push after WW2 was certainly a version of national socialism, and its racism has become much more blatant and evident as time goes on. The Chinese, with the reforms of Deng, moved from a Great Russian to a German national socialist economy. This worked much better.

    Now in the West, racist attacks on the locals by the elite and their pawns are more and more vicious and violent, and gangs of stormtroopers roam the streets.

    I’d thus say that rule by Nazis is not only probable; it is also unavoidable. Hitler has won.

  7. Steve,

    “I’ve heard this one for decades, but is it actually true?”

    The odd person will commit suicide, but as it’s the odd person, let’s not worry too much about it. There are girls who try and top themselves when boy bands split up or a boy dumps them. If it wasn’t the church, something else would probably cause these people to do it.

    I believe people are born with a certain level of coping ability. You rarely discover that your flaky cousin who can’t get their shit together as a teenager grows into someone who does as an adult.

  8. Various churches have been updating the word of God to catch up with the social mores of society for centuries.

    Since huge numbers of people get along fine without religion why do the alphabet people feel the need to bother with it. Church people hate you, don’t go to church then, or if you really must, find one that is a bit more tolerant.

  9. BoM4 – deffo. I also reckon a lot of people experiment with alternative sexualities because they’re already troubled.

    Stony – Church people hate you

    Dunno. Some people do, obvs, but in general it’s more of a “hate the sin, not the sinner” thing. Modern Christians are absolutely rubbish at hating. The Catholic Church would probably close down if it got rid of all its closeted gay priests (would save a fortune on legal settlements to altar boys tho)

    Jesus Christ consorted with prostitutes, terrorists and tax collectors, but he told them to go and sin no more.

    Elton John doesn’t want to sin no more, he wants to be the rocketman in an all-male naked conga line and for everybody to applaud how stunning and brave that is.

  10. Whenever two or three are gathered together in my name..and so on. You can be a Christian without any particular church, the religion does not require it. Unless your aim is solely to make mischief.

  11. . . . but in general it’s more of a “hate the sin, not the sinner” thing.

    I expect the distinction seemed somewhat blurred through the smoke and flames, for those benefitting from the sin cleansing ceremonies.

  12. PJF – I expect the distinction seemed somewhat blurred through the smoke and flames, for those benefitting from the sin cleansing ceremonies.

    This is what I mean about modern Christians, can’t even organise an old fashioned LGBBQ.

  13. If the Word of God is what Jesus is reported as saying in the Gospels, then I don’t know that he said a word about poofery.

    If the Word of God is interpreted as meaning the barbaric fictions of the early books of the OT, then I’m damned if I can see anything Christian about them.

  14. Dearieme,

    it is in Jesus’ famous speech “Consider ye the bandits of the arse, for they are clad in such raiment as Solomon himself would not have dared wear.”

    Actually in the NT it is Paul who rails on about poovery. Much of our Christian teaching derives from him, in the epistles, even more than JC himself ( because after all the Gospels were carefully selected during Constantine’s marketing brainstorm at Nicaea and the Epistles are “first hand” documents) . It is denying St Paul that has caused the theological decline in the CofE. As a church it has left me behind.

  15. So why doesn’t Elton the Talentless set up his own damned religion if he/she/they doesn’t like the ones on offer. He makes me come over all Plantagenet

  16. “after all the Gospels were carefully selected during Constantine’s marketing brainstorm at Nicaea” according to Dan Brown’s version but not the historically accurate version. Nicea was mainly about whether Jesus was flesh or divine or both (and no not the trinity- that was later).

  17. Since I’m too lazy to look it up: was the anti-poof stuff in the genuine Pauline epistles or the counterfeit ones?

  18. Sigh

    Hallowed Be everybody knows that Constantine suppressed heretical gospels such as St Owen’s
    “Celebrate teh gayers, for it is easier for a rich man to enter than a camel.”

  19. “Nicea was mainly about whether Jesus was flesh or divine or both”

    From memory wasn’t that all to do with arguing over whether a small fleck of ink was the tiny Greek letter ‘i’ or just a small fleck of ink, changing a word between meaning “formed as human” and “formed as a human”.

    There’s a sly reference to it in one of the Moomin books.

  20. Dearime- the ones they think he wrote. Romans referred to samesex lust as unnatural and shameful, and then Corinthians list of those God disinherited “the effiminate…. nor abusers of themselves with mankind”. You could say fairly mild stuff,(there’s no temporal punishment mentioned) but then you’re not an anointed censor at Utube or twitter.

  21. Otto- i didnae know that. The eye of the camel thing (has Tim discussed that before? have a sense of comment deja vu) wasn’t it some idiom at the time like there’s a Gate in Jerusalem or a geographical feature that was called the eye of the needle. dunno.

    JGH- didnae know that either, I will see the moomnins in a new light. I do know it wasn’t a close vote and the Arian view was declared heresy.

  22. “So why doesn’t Elton the Talentless set up his own damned religion if he/she/they doesn’t like the ones on offer.”
    Because its nothing to do with the Starfish Troopers going to their own church, its about making you miserable going to yours! Its a question of who shall be master as Humpty Dumpty said.

  23. Surely if you are an unrepentant gayer you are either accepting that you’ll burn in the everlasting fire or you are not a Christian? Why join up if you don’t believe?
    I wouldn’t join the Labour Party and try to turn it in favour of free markets and small government.

  24. Steve

    October 17, 2020 at 9:05 am

    Yarp.

    Campaigners say charismatic and evangelical churches that tell LGBT people they are an abomination or possessed by demonic forces are driving some towards self-harm and suicide.

    I’ve heard this one for decades, but is it actually true?

    It *can* be – on an individual basis, but generally no. Even these churches accept a split between the way you are and the way you behave. They will accept LGBT members, they will support them even – but within the framework of their own beliefs. Which means homosexuals are to refrain from gay sex (just as hets are expected to refrain from sex outside of marriage).

    Its not necessarily realistic – and it can certainly lead to self-harm – but its not condemnation either. And that, of course, is ignoring that there are tons of more liberal Christian denominations that you can go to that don’t even do that.

    Churches must be safe and affirming, he said.

    Why affirming though? I can see ‘safe’ and I can see ‘we’re just not going to pressure you to change’ but I don’t understand this demand to ‘affirm’. A demand to tolerate me is one thing. A demand to like me and stroke my ego just builds resentment.

  25. philip
    October 17, 2020 at 9:50 am

    On balance I’d be happier being dictated to by a bunch of poofs than by Nazis. But the decision is getting more nuanced day bay day.

    Unfortunately you’re going to be dictated to by a bunch of poofs who are Nazis.

    Back in 1974 Joe Haldeman wrote ‘The Forever War’. In part of it the government of the world had managed to make homosexuality the dominant sexual ‘orientation’ in order to combat overpopulation through a generations long program of social engineering.

    I don’t think anyone at that time would have thought it really possible. I would have laughed off the possibility as recently as 2010.

  26. “it can certainly lead to self-harm” One of the AOB items agreed at Nicea was banning self castration of priests. To my mind that “self” is rather bothersome.

  27. Rob, I’ve never been in a black church.
    Have been in many white churches – and such beliefs are common in white churches.

    Charismatic and evangelical churches in my experience are mostly white churches. I can think of one black one I have heard of like that.

    Cannot see them changing their interpretation of the bible. Heck, I don’t see them deciding not to work on Friday nights or Saturday either.
    Interpretation taken based on the wording – I’ll listen to anyone who fully applies Leviticus 100%. Usually you find they don’t…

  28. On balance I’d be happier being dictated to by a bunch of poofs than by Nazis.

    Of course, the two are not mutally incompatible.

    Rohm’s Brownshirts were the original miltant gay organisation, forty years before Stonewall.

  29. @ HB
    One of the AOB items agreed at Nicea was banning self castration of priests
    Might have saved the Vatican a bunch of money if it hadn’t been banned.

    @ wat dabney
    Rohm’s Brownshirts
    Explains the name

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