How is populism not democracy?

It is indisputable that populism is a path away from democracy, at the very least.

Populism is whipping the people up to vote for something. Democracy is the people voting for something. How are the two different?

45 thoughts on “How is populism not democracy?”

  1. Populism is whipping up people to vote for something you don’t like. Democracy is when they vote for what you want. Since there are naturally more of the moronic plebs than brilliant and enlightened geniuses like yourself, persuading these idiots to fail to bow to your slightest whim is the absolute and immoral antithesis of democracy.

    All clear now?

  2. They are both democracy but then so is two people voting for you to give them your mobile phone or a group of pointy hatted people enthusiastically voting for one black man to be burnt alive. The calls of the Chartists were democratic ( far more so at least the Conservative resistance ). Was Victorian constitutional evolution wrong, or do we prefer the terror and revolution? I know what I think.
    Reasonable people can agree that democracy is not one thing and not always the only good thing.

    No army ,no company, no organisation of any kind tasked with achieving anything will be purely democratic.
    At the end of this year we will leave the single market and acquire trading terms equivalent to Mongolia with our neighbours and partners. We will do this based on the votes of people who did not know what the single market was did not understand the economic argument and had almost as little grasp of the supposed constitutional gain. Is that a working democracy ?

    Not in my view.
    If the problem is ignorance whatever you may think about my view of fucking Brexit surely you would agree with me that system that actually rearwards the best liar, has an entire industry working on misleading people cannot be a good thing. Call it democracy if you like, mob rule is a better description

  3. ‘did not understand the economic argument and had almost as little grasp of the supposed constitutional gain.’

    I voted to leave from the heart. I expect there may be a couple of tough years, but I think self-determination is worth some sacrifice.

    Besides, nobody knows what the economic ramifications will be, not even the Great Spud of Ely.

  4. The economic argument advanced by those who wanted to remain, that argument?

    It wasn’t the only argument

    It may even (perish the thought) not be true, especially as it was based on a huge number of heroic assumptions (many of which might be said to be at best arguable and at worse nonsense)

    Only time will tell and anyone who claims they know the future is an idiot

  5. Harry Haddock's Ghost

    Poor old Newmania, still struggling with his inner bigot. Sort of reminds me of the late Ted Heath and his endless sulk.

    Reach out to him, brothers. Help him with his pain.

  6. All of Newmania’s arguments could be applied to Ireland in 1922, America in 1776. “Don’t leave! You’re being stupid, won’t somebody think of the economy!!!!”

  7. How is populism not democracy- They’re not exact synonyms. As a Venn they could share common ground. It just depends on how you’re putin it.

  8. It’s odd, Newmania & I look at the EU and come to completely opposite conclusions. Is that because he is totally deluded and I’m far seeing or vice versa? I think it unlikely. I think it’s also unlikely that it is somewhere in the middle.

    I look at the EU (as opposed to ‘Europe’) and I see a project that started off as a common trading arrangement and then morphed, inexorably and by design, into a project to create a single federal state in Europe. In my view that will ultimately fail – we see a lot of the cracks showing now. In the process of failure a lot of nasty things will happen both economically and politically, and we will be far better off observing the cataclysm from a distance rather than struggling to extract ourselves at the time. Hence, from my perspective, Brexit is a no-brainer. If our exit has made that failure more certain, then so be it.

    I would be interested in Newmania’s rebuttal of that argument, if he has one, but I’m not interested if it is going to descend into a lot of name-calling.

  9. Dennis: Oppressor, Warmonger, Capitalist and Consumer of Petroleum Products

    If the problem is ignorance whatever you may think about my view of fucking Brexit surely you would agree with me that system that actually rearwards the best liar, has an entire industry working on misleading people cannot be a good thing.

    I’m getting the sense that Newmania makes a living writing Joe Biden’s best material…

  10. Dennis, He Who Is Annoyed By Overt Stupidity And Ignorance

    At the end of this year we will leave the single market and acquire trading terms equivalent to Mongolia with our neighbours and partners. We will do this based on the votes of people who did not know what the single market was did not understand the economic argument and had almost as little grasp of the supposed constitutional gain. Is that a working democracy ?

    Yes, actually, it is democracy working.

    Not surprised you cannot grasp that, though.

  11. Reasonable people can agree that democracy is not one thing and not always the only good thing.

    Indeed. Who can disregard the importance, nay the pre-eminence, of “what I want”?

    However, you can’t always get what you want; part of being a functioning adult human is dealing with that in a better way spending the rest of your life howling ‘bigot!’ into the ether and pissing yourself in impotent rage.

  12. The restrictions on govt doing daft things could be better in the UK, but 23rd Jun 2016 as an example of a bad populist democratic outcome? True it could indeed be bad, so there’s checks in place, like was there anything illegal in the campaign which indicates it should be run again and the Supreme Court ruling that Parliament had to approve A50. Rule of Law stuff. And the engaged politically had a chance to choose new Party leaders at various points. And then that Parliament that agreed A50 was go got dissolved and we got the option to vote in a new set of more remainy MPs if we wanted, and we voted for fewer, and two years later we were asked again, and we voted for even fewer remainy MPs.
    And it’s still not done.

  13. Democracy is only allowing the People to vote for politicians who promise to put the interests of the People first, but instead put the interests of the Establishment at the top of the list.
    Populism is the People getting rid of those politicians and replacing them with other politicians who promise to put the interests of the People first, but instead put the interests of the Establishment at the top of the list.

    Obviously, one of these is very good and the other one is very, very bad.

  14. At the end of this year we will leave the single market and acquire trading terms equivalent to Mongolia with our neighbours and partners. We will do this based on the votes of people who did not know what the single market was did not understand the economic argument and had almost as little grasp of the supposed constitutional gain. Is that a working democracy?

    If you actually believe this FacePainter, then you are not only irrational, you’re delusional and should seek medical help.

    We’ve gone over the Democratic ground of “Are you really sure about this” time and again. First giving the Tories an unexpected majority in 2015 because the promised a referendum, next at the Referendum itself in 2016, then again in the election in 2017 and once more in the election in 2018.

    While support for the particular BRExit on the table has wavered (mostly depending on how BRExit-in-name-only it was), there has never been any significant support for the parties of Repeal or Remain. The Limp Dims have been consistently thrashed and Labour have done little better than little fluctuation around their core base of support, far below what they need for a majority.

    So what you’re really objecting to is not the democracy (because we’ve had lots of that in the past few years) but the outcome.

    The one thing nobody likes is a crybaby. Fucking grow a pair and quit your bitching.

  15. Galt you tragic dopey cunt; many many remain voters voted against Jeremy Corbyn creating( as they will be surprised to discover),a clear democratic mandate for Brexit. Remain has lead in the polls almost ever since the catastrophic referendum.
    90% of leave voters were persuaded that erecting batters between the UK and its largest supplier and market would make them richer…yes actually richer. Look up STUPID and you will find this is now the standard definition.
    That growing suspicion that they have been lied to is now clearly expressed in the Polls.
    U Gov conducted a poll at the end of September suggesting that 50% now believe Britain was wrong to leave the European Union, just 39% of people said that Britain was right to leave the EU.
    Now that is a damn sight more decisive than the non existent call for a second referendum in the first place –
    What the matter, cat got your democratic tongue ?

  16. Polls aren’t democracy, thicky. And neither are your imagined percentages.

    I still find it hilarious that you think you’re part of the global elite, but still can’t express yourself coherently.

  17. Dennis, Bullshit Detector

    …many many remain voters voted against Jeremy Corbyn creating( as they will be surprised to discover),a clear democratic mandate for Brexit. Remain has lead in the polls almost ever since the catastrophic referendum.

    Funny thing about polls… They don’t mean anything. Ask Hillary Clinton, she’ll tell you. Votes are what are meaningful.

    And the idea that tons of Remainiacs voted against Labour without understanding the impact that vote would have on the issue of Brexit is ridiculous on its face.

  18. If we conducted a poll of Worstall readers as to whether newmania should be denied the crayons to publicly prove his idiocy, I dare say the result would be an overwhelming ‘oh yes’. And Yrt you still keep appearing here you fucking maggot, despite our overwhelming wishes to the contrary.

    I guess that’s democracy

  19. Mr Newmania,
    If you have to resort to insults and abuse, then there may be something lacking in the strength of your argument, or in your eloquence expressing it, maybe?
    Either way, it isn’t what people here wish to read and discuss, so the abuse best kept to yourself perhaps?

    Democracy does NOT mean we keep on voting until the side which one supports wins. Sometimes the vote goes the other way, and it’s grown-up behaviour to deal with the reality that the majority think differently to you. Ozzies have a lovely term for the alternative: a ‘dummy-spit’. Not really a good show old chap.

    The Brexit vote was over 4 years ago: time to move on to the rest of your life. 27 other countries still in the rEU to move to. Though how long it’ll stay 27, now that UK has shown escape is possible “remains” to be seen. Ho ho.

  20. “How is populism not democracy- They’re not exact synonyms. As a Venn they could share common ground. It just depends on how you’re putin it.”

    Bravo sir, bravo!

  21. The Brexit vote was over 4 years ago: time to move on to the rest of your life.

    A travesty of a referendum suffused with lies was narrowly won and by those who would like us to be poor and lonely and I am supposed to keep quiet? A crushing and final win for joining the EEC took place in 1975 . The whining started ten minutes later and has not let up at any stage since.
    Now a clear majority do not want the pile of manure they were sold and with at least another year of Covid 19 to come everything is up for grabs.

  22. f you have to resort to insults and abuse, then there may be something lacking in the strength of your argument, or in your eloquence expressing it, maybe

    Or maybe I am responding to that dickless buffoon John Galt in the appropriate idiomatic register ?

  23. It’s hard not to laugh at the ill-written stream of nonsense that Newmy provides. I hope he sometimes switches on his mind when he is working. Or is he spending his whole life drinking meths?

  24. Or is he spending his whole life drinking meths?

    He was clearly never taught by the other winos that you strain the meths through a loaf of bread first to remove the bitrex and colourants.

    🙂

  25. “A crushing and final win for joining the EEC took place in 1975 . ”

    And had it stayed the EEC we’d still be in it. But it isn’t the EEC any more, so the vote that took place in 1975 is utterly irrelevant as to whether we stay in the proto-superstate EU. We’ve had 30+ years of politicians taking the EEC in a direction all those in campaigning to join in 1975 swore blind wouldn’t happen. They even knew at the time it was lies, the Cabinet Papers show as much.

    If any vote on the EU was based on lies to the electorate it was the 1975 one. Thats why so many people who voted to go in changed their minds. They soon realised they’d been conned.

  26. Newmania, always with the patronising “they didn’t know what they were voting for”.

    Whereas we all knew we would get Von Der Leyen, even though she wasn’t a candidate.

    Well, didn’t we?

  27. Dennis, The Sigmund Freud of Central Ohio

    A travesty of a referendum suffused with lies was narrowly won and by those who would like us to be poor and lonely and I am supposed to keep quiet?

    It’s striking that Newmania refuses to admit that there are people of goodwill and honesty that disagree with him on this issue. There must always be a sinister purpose associated with Brexit and its supporters… In his world, no one could honestly believe Brexit might be in Britain’s best interests, so it must be the result of a cabal of shadowy villains who – for reasons Newmania doesn’t explain – want the British to be “poor and alone”.

    Much like Richard Murphy – and Amanda Marcotte, for that matter – Newmania’s world is filled with cabals and conspiracies, all with sinister purpose, which only he – and the noble few like him – can see and fully understand. It’s a world of phantoms: Brexiteers for Newmania, The Big Four and HMRC for Murphy, and the Patriarchy for Marcotte. All exist, all are malign, and the end goals in their sinister purpose is never fully articulated or explained. They’re just there. Being malignant. Evidently for the fun of it.

    Murphy is 60 and can’t find a job in his chosen profession. He’s reduced to scrounging for grant money. Marcotte is in her 40s, unmarried, and most likely living in a 400 square foot apartment over a pizza joint with her latest “boyfriend”. It doesn’t take much to make the assumption that Newmania’s station in life is about the same.

    Happy, well adjusted adults don’t obsess over things like Brexit (or if they do, they make sure they get well paid for it… think twits like Owen Jones). Nor do they flatter themselves that they can make a difference in the tides of history by getting on a blog and arguing with people they don’t know.

  28. Newmie is just channeling The Police:

    I cant, I can’t / I can’t stand Losing (x3)
    I can’t stand losing EU!

  29. There must be some English English definitions of indisputable and populism that I don’t know about. Murphy’s usage is alien. Is English a second language for him? That would explain a lot.

    Populism is an uprising against the elite. It’s way damn overdue. “Experts,” “scientists,”
    and any politician who has ever said “climate change,” need to be purged.

  30. @Gamecock – Like most of the libtards, Spud is trying to create difference where there ain’t any. To him “Democracy” is when he’s getting stuff he likes/wants without paying full retail for it. When he doesn’t get want he wants it’s mere “Populism” and “Literally worse than Hitler”.

    He is so hypocritical that he’s forgotten what truth and reality really are.

  31. That’s a horrible thought brought on by Dennis and the fag end of this evening’s red wine. Is Newmania actually Amanda’s latest bidyin? That would explain why he’s so utterly miserable all of the time. And the barely coherent as well. And a good bit of why she is such a depressing whatever, as well.

  32. Newmania
    October 27, 2020 at 6:46 pm

    The Brexit vote was over 4 years ago: time to move on to the rest of your life.

    A travesty of a referendum suffused with lies was narrowly won and by those who would like us to be poor and lonely and I am supposed to keep quiet? A crushing and final win for joining the EEC took place in 1975 . The whining started ten minutes later and has not let up at any stage since.
    Now a clear majority do not want the pile of manure they were sold and with at least another year of Covid 19 to come everything is up for grabs.

    You are saying that a half-dozen votes for leaving aren’t democracy – but one more will be?

    Or are you saying democracy is ‘the will of only a limited set of the people, those deemed to have the proper opinions on things and the rest should just do as they’re told’?

    Because what I’m hearing from you is that the 1975 EEC vote was ‘good’ democracy – because it gave the result you wanted – but the other votes are bad democracy – because they don’t.

    Yet the same poorly educated, low-information type of voters had their say in all of them. So what makes the 1975 vote ‘legitimate’ in your eyes but the later ones not?

  33. Newmania
    October 27, 2020 at 10:53 am

    . . .
    At the end of this year we will leave the single market and acquire trading terms equivalent to Mongolia with our neighbours and partners.

    If you’re selling what your neighbors and ‘partners’ want then they’ll still buy it. Tariffs are taxes on the people of the country that imposes them – they exist to allow the elite of that nation to grant special privileges to the favored groups of that political elite.

    So, the UK need only not impose tariffs and the you can freely receive goods from elsewhere. And if other nations impose tariffs – that’s a sign that that *that* country is fucked up, and maybe you shouldn’t deal with them.

    In any case, the cost of transport is a minuscule fraction of the cost of a good on the shelf. There’s nothing to be lost by trading with people in Mongolia. Or the US. Or India. Or Mexico. Or any number of other nations where the crap you’re buying was made in in the first place before it was shipped to France to have a label put on it.

  34. @ Dennis:

    ” It’s striking that Newmania refuses to admit that there are people of goodwill and honesty that disagree with him on this issue.”

    People who argue in bad faith and themselves lack in honesty and goodwill generally believe that everybody else is like them. Just as people who behave in criminal or subversive ways see criminals and subversives everywhere they look.

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