It’s in the original definition

Jews practice apartheid, Palestinians can’t vote and…..hmm:

One cannot live a single day in Israel-Palestine without the sense that this place is constantly being engineered to privilege one people, and one people only: the Jewish people. Yet half of those living between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea are Palestinian. The chasm between these lived realities fills the air, bleeds, is everywhere on this land.

Note the definition of the area. That includes the West Bank and also Gaza as well as Israel. So at least part of the complaint is that those living with Hamas as their government, those with the Palestinian Unity whatever it is, don;t get to vote for the government under which they do not live.

Quite appalling, I agree. Why shouldn’t Brits vote for the government of France after all?

38 thoughts on “It’s in the original definition”

  1. So Much For Subtlety

    Well the PA is not so much like France as like a Bantustan.

    The Jews of Israel (and most of the rest outside Israel) want a country of their own. Fair enough. But it is built on other people’s land. Hard luck for them.

    But the Israeli Jews also want some of the other part of the land and to control it all. There a whole set of new problems arise.

  2. “Palestinians” have since the 40’s always declined and refused their share of the country, the offer keeps ketting worse every decade. Wasn’t Jordan part of the British Palestine? Let’s give them that and East Jerusalem, the build an air bridge and a motorway to link them.

    See? I just solved the Middle East problem.

  3. Jussi, the Hashemite Jordanians hate the Palestinians and consider them to be little better than rats. Black September was their answer to the Palestinian “problem”.

  4. As I understand, even if Gaza wasn’t run by Hamas the powers delegated to whoever would be the government there are more like a city council. Certainly works like that in the west bank – the Israeli government retains a lot of the power and as a non-israeli citizen (as those who live in Gaza) you don’t get a vote for the government controlling a lot of the decisions.

    For example, if you want to travel internationally as a palestinian, you have to get a permit from the Israeli government. They set rules, but you have no ability to influence the rules set with your vote, as you don’t get one.

    If you’re a Palestinian, think of the Israeli government as like the EU for the UK, but on steroids with a much larger range of things devolved than when the UK left.

  5. But it is built on other people’s land. Hard luck for them.

    Yup, so it is for lots of people after the chaos of colonialism and war. But this show has run and run, sponsored by Arab patrons, Guardian readers and internet twats with shelves of books to confirm their fetid bias. If the Abraham Accords survive the upcoming swamp administration the curtains may drop for the final time.

  6. I think I’ve just agreed with SMFS. That’ll be the once for this year, then. I was going to post “bantustans” too, Tim – these are not independent countries in control of their own rules and daily lives.

  7. SMFS & napsjam

    “Bantustans”, yes, but bantustans of their own choosing.

    As someone else has said on the Palestinians proclivity for acting up to their supporters overseas and promptly shooting themselves in the foot – “The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.”

  8. 400k people, the whole population, had to leave Karelia in a mass exodus in 1940, and relocate. They don’t go bombing stuff because they’re bitter. They left their houses, businesses and farms, practically overnight, just hit the dirt road, Jack and don’tcha come back no more no more no more no more.

  9. Israel is simply going to define its eastern border along that girt big wall (plus a few roads up and down the West Bank to complicate matters) and abandon all behind it to make their own way as they wish. Much as has been done with Gaza – a place with a higher and more heavily-guarded wall on its Egyptian than its Israeli border.

    Not coincidentally, MC, this current mess is also largely Turkey’s fault. And that the Dar ul Islam, which stretches largely unbroken from Morocco to Malaysia, cannot tolerate at its rough geographical centre a few miles-wide strip of desert with Jews in it.

  10. BiG

    Being a bit glib there. It is not just the geographical centre, but the spiritual centre too. Jerusalem is as holy to Islam as it is to the Jew and Christians. It is no coincidence that ancient maps put Jerusalem in their centre.

    HOWEVER, many of the saner Islamic states are beginning to normalise relations and even recognise Israel. Trump’s legacy writ large.

  11. Jerusalem is as holy to Islam as it is to the Jew and Christians.

    As to Christians maybe, but not the Jews. And it’s only “holy” to Islam because it was holy to Jews (and Christians). It’s not the “Dome of the Rock”, it’s the ruthless power of Islam shitting on the most sacred Jewish site.

  12. It’s not the “Dome of the Rock”, it’s the ruthless power of Islam shitting on the most sacred Jewish site.

    And the fact that one is built on top of the other should be a pretty big clue as to whose antecedents inhabited that particular part of the world first.

  13. ‘ But it is built on other people’s land.’

    The Israelites/Jews were there first… read the Bible or watch Life of Brian. Not for nothing was the Roman province called Judea.

  14. I have no policies on Israel/Palestine: not my problems. But I do have an interest in genetics.

    “whose antecedents inhabited that particular part of the world first”: probably the Palestinians, especially the Christian Palestinians, win that contest. The Jews who matter in Israel. who set it up, are Ashkenazis. They are about 50% descended from old Middle Eastern populations (i.e. presumably the Jews of the Levant (and maybe Iraq?)) and 50% southern European, probably Italian.

    The Ps though, especially the Christian Ps, are essentially the descendants of the Palestinian Jews of the time of Jesus – or if you prefer, of the time of the Jewish risings against Rome. No doubt there’s a little bit of admixture from the Arabian peninsula, and even of African slaves brought in after the Islamic slave trade got going so vigorously, but they probably have a much higher old-Jewish descent than 50%.

    What effect should that argument have on policy? Dunno. I have no policies on Israel/Palestine: not my problems.

  15. The Jews who matter in Israel. who set it up, are Ashkenazis. They are about 50% descended from old Middle Eastern populations (i.e. presumably the Jews of the Levant (and maybe Iraq?)) and 50% southern European, probably Italian.

    Presumably the Ashkenazis have ancestry in the region too? (This could be classed as idle curiosity: I’m certainly too idle to look it up myself, but if you happen to know then I’m happy to be enlightened!)

  16. Oft-overlooked fact: Egypt constructed a border wall between themselves and Gaza.

    How many more land concessions and peace offerings does Israel have to make before people just accept that “bigger and more powerful” does not automatically equal “the bad guys”?

    Meanwhile, I tend to see a lot of Brits (not Worstall, though) and UN advocates continuing to exacerbate a problem that they themselves created in the first place.

  17. When you’re fighting for your life and someone threatens to stab you in the back, you naturally tell them whatever will keep them quiet until you finish off the ones to your front.

    The Hashemites, the Jews, the French all demanded a share of the loot, once the Turks attacked Britain’s Russian ally and the UK came to its assistance. The Brits sorted this out as best they could after the war.

    The bit I like best is where Lloyd George, when asked why he wanted the north of Iraq, said ‘That’s where the oil is.’ Even a politician can say something sensible occasionally.

  18. Not only that, but the Turks tried to invade Egypt and capture the Canal.

    Britain also had to spend a lot of time in Egypt defending the Jewish and Greek communities. They were targets ( especially once the Great war started ) of radicalised Islamiist students.

  19. ‘Presumably the Ashkenazis have ancestry in the region too? ” Yeah, as I say about 50%, assuming that when the researchers say “Middle Eastern” they may well be talking of Palestinian origin.

    The interesting thing is that the 50% is from males; the European 50% is from females. At some point Jewish males in Italy (or Provence) took European wives. So at that point in their history they didn’t use the modern rule that Jewishness was defined by your mother being a Jew.

    The leading researcher on ancient DNA is Reich at Harvard who is himself Jewish. I understand that he’s said that he is not going to investigate the ancient DNA of Israel/Palestine. Wise man. He’s already exposed to cancellation quite enough.

  20. So Much For Subtlety

    Jussi January 12, 2021 at 1:11 pm – “400k people, the whole population, had to leave Karelia in a mass exodus in 1940, and relocate.”

    I am not sure that Stalin should be our guide. Do you? I thought that policy was wrong when implemented. I think it is wrong now. I would be happy to see Finland get Karelia back.

    Ottokring January 12, 2021 at 1:14 pm – “Lookup the Benes Decree and the fate of the Sudetendeutsch.”

    I am not sure that Stalin should be our guide. Do you? I thought that policy was wrong when implemented. I think it is wrong now. I would be happy to see the Germans of the Czech lands – culturally so significant in the 20th century – go back.

    But neither of those matter. As we are not talking about the Arabs who were ethnically cleansed in 1949 and in 1967. We are talking about the Palestinians who are still ruled by Israel through a fake Bantustan in 2021. And if Moscow still had soldiers in a fake non-independent country like Communist Poland I am pretty sure the Poles would be objecting. And I would support them too. Well I would support them a whole lot more than the Palestinians.

  21. So Much For Subtlety

    ;ladkfae January 12, 2021 at 4:28 pm – “How many more land concessions and peace offerings does Israel have to make before people just accept that “bigger and more powerful” does not automatically equal “the bad guys”?”

    I am happy to concede the Palestinians are pretty repulsive people. But that does not mean Israel has made any concessions or peace offerings. Israel is happy to offer almost nothing when they know it must be rejected. They are very good at PR. But they have no intention of giving up any territory from the river to the sea and so far they have not.

    The Middle East is one of those places where you can’t be a good guy. Nice guys get screwed fast in the Middle East. You have to be a Bastard. And Israel is pretty good at that. Fine. Not my problem. I am not that concerned one way or the other. If I had a preference it would be for no more ethnic cleansing – so no Arab victory.

    But the great thing about people rolling out the knee jerk accusation of anti-semitism is that I don’t have to lie about Israel in order to avoid that sort of politically correct intimidation. I think everyone would be better off if they were more honest.

    “Meanwhile, I tend to see a lot of Brits (not Worstall, though) and UN advocates continuing to exacerbate a problem that they themselves created in the first place.”

    Winston Churchill said that he supported Israel because once the Jews became an Imperial power themselves, with their own natives, they would be forced to re-evaluate the British Empire and support Britain. That did not work out. Far too many Jewish people have no problems with double standards. Or in this case blaming the British for trying to be nice to everyone. Such a pity Britain forced, just forced, the Jewish state to torture suspects isn’t it?

  22. So Much For Subtlety

    John B January 12, 2021 at 2:48 pm – “The Israelites/Jews were there first… read the Bible or watch Life of Brian. Not for nothing was the Roman province called Judea.”

    You are assuming there is some connection between the Jews of Europe who created Israel and the Jews of the Roman Empire. That seems possible. But, then again, really? I am not sure if it is a good basis for policy though.

    All we can say for sure is that in 1949 the Jewish Army removed people who had been living on that piece of land for at least a thousand years or so. That is pretty indigenous to me.

  23. So Much For Subtlety

    snag January 12, 2021 at 11:43 pm – “There’s nothing like a thread on Israel to bring out a frothing stream of bile from So Much For Der Stürmer.”

    See what I mean? The real issue is that British people are nice. Or try to be. Anti-semitism is not nice. So they tend to stay away from anything that smacks of it.

    Which enables cynical exploitation of Jewish suffering like this. See also Black Lives Matter

    Other than that, love you work Dude.

  24. But the great thing about people rolling out the knee jerk accusation of anti-Semitism . . .

    Had anyone mentioned it?

    And if Moscow still had soldiers in a fake non-independent country . . .

    Kaliningrad should be enough to keep you busy.

  25. That’s not really wholly and entirely true. The exodus – if it’s possible to use that word weighted historically as it is – was rather more voluntary than being driven before that Jewish Army.

  26. There’s a Simon Schama book that makes this plain. Well up into the 1600s Judaism passed through the male, not female, line. Or often did at least.

  27. On the German side of the border the road signs to Usti nad Labem still – sometimes – read “Aussig”.

  28. Tim, just for info (and mostly irrelevant because it’s usually obvious who you are replying to, but in case you simply don’t see this).

    On
    https://www.timworstall.com/comments/feed/
    I see this (for your two comments above):

    In reply to So Much For Subtlety That’s not really wholly and entirely true (etc..)

    In reply to dearieme (etc..)

    But the sequential format above (in my browser at least) skips that reply reference / makes no reference to the two that you replied to. You probably know that already….

  29. So Much For Subtlety

    PJF January 13, 2021 at 2:40 am – “Kaliningrad should be enough to keep you busy.”

    I grieve that the home of Kant should now be a garrison of the former Evil Empire. But that is different as there aren’t that many Germans there now. It is not like a Bantustan. It is more like Israel proper.

    Tim Worstall January 13, 2021 at 9:22 am – “The exodus – if it’s possible to use that word weighted historically as it is – was rather more voluntary than being driven before that Jewish Army.”

    There is a rather large literature on this – and not all of it the realm of the loony left. I would be cautious of single causes, in general (although not always), but in this case I am not sure there are many people who would deny the soon-to-be Israeli Army units were the main cause.

    Tim Worstall January 13, 2021 at 9:23 am – “There’s a Simon Schama book that makes this plain. Well up into the 1600s Judaism passed through the male, not female, line. Or often did at least.”

    This would be surprising. Does he give sources? By 1600, the Jewish community would have centuries of legal decisions and rabbinical decisions. Vast numbers of which would be written down.

    1600 would be well after Maimonides. Schama is alleging his vast output assumed descent through the male line? That would be … rather hard to ignore if true. Kind of hard to believe people did not notice.

  30. TW: “There’s a Simon Schama book that makes this plain. Well up into the 1600s Judaism passed through the male, not female, line. Or often did at least.”

    This is very far from being factual. Did you mean 1600 BC, perhaps?

  31. I was reading the book last week and that’s what he says about Jews in both China and Moderna at the time. Whether it’s true, well, but it’s true that’s what he says.

  32. If he’s saying that there were instances, well yes perhaps. There are many Jews who eat bacon sandwiches, but that does not mean that Judaism allows it.

    BTW Judaism has always accepted converts, both male and female, so DNA is unhelpful.

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