Umm, yes?January 14, 2021 Tim WorstallHealth Care33 CommentsRecovering from Covid gives similar level of protection to vaccine Isn’t that sorta the point? previousYou’d think The Guardian, at least, would know their fascistsnextExcellent 33 thoughts on “Umm, yes?” Rupert January 14, 2021 at 2:43 pm As always, you wonder why our wonderful NHS keeps showing us pictures of people who have already been infected getting vaccines 🙁 I suppose it’s just more evidence of “science”! The Meissen Bison January 14, 2021 at 2:49 pm For a reader to find that reassuring or for the media to write and publish it, it would be necessary not to understand the principles of vaccination in the first place. Pat January 14, 2021 at 3:13 pm Recovery from a viral disease gives greater immunity than any vaccine. One absolutely 100% must be immune at the point of recovery. Ottokring January 14, 2021 at 3:21 pm Ah yes, but having had Covid means that you won’t have the 5G Nanobots in your bloodstream. If we start to get the Bill Gates vaccinations, will there be any decent games on there or will we just have Solitaire and Minesweeper ? Bongo January 14, 2021 at 3:23 pm Something feels wrong about this PHE study which appears not to use a control group – only health care workers analysed, from NHS Trusts only (so no private health care workers and private or LA care home workers) data collection started in June with 6614 +ves and around 14173 -ves in the sample. I’m not buying that 32% of +ves were out there, when nationally the number has just reached 22% now and much of that is from the 2nd wave. If health care workers have been infected at those rates up to around 32% at some point in the Jun-Nov sampling period, then we’d expect the age standardised death rates of healthcare workers to reflect that and I don’t think it does. I think Pat is right – you would expect a much higher degree of protection from having had the actual virus compared to what’s been reported. Matt January 14, 2021 at 3:38 pm This is following on directly from the bizarre insistence that we didn’t know if people who’d had it were immune – you just have to look at the millions who’ve had it and the handful of unusual cases who’ve had it twice to know that there’s clearly immunity. From the WHO/PHE/etc insistence that we don’t know about the existence of the immune system we then go on to making people isolate for no good reason, and wasting vaccinations on people who don’t need them. philip January 14, 2021 at 4:32 pm How long does immunity last? SARS-CoV-1 recovered patients (natural, no vaccine) have immunity 17 years later, rarely get serious SARS-CoV-2 (covid19) Yet we are expected to believe that natural acquired immunity to the new version of SARS lasts only six months and the vaccine will protect you for less than a year. Nice money if you can get it. Of course you don’t tell guinea pigs the truth. They don’t speak English. There’s an awful lot we’re not being told, even if we aren’t being told outright lies. Jussi January 14, 2021 at 4:36 pm So if one has had the chinese lang AIDS, why use a mask? You can’t get it again and people who haven’t had it yet are wearing masks, right? Jussi January 14, 2021 at 4:37 pm lung, not lang. dearieme January 14, 2021 at 4:44 pm “this PHE study”: aha, an outfit that obsesses about the nation’s consumption of cream cakes has a go at science. What fun. BniC January 14, 2021 at 4:51 pm Apparently the reaction to the vaccine is more pronounced in people who have previously had Covid as well The entire immunity/vaccination narrative in the media and govt pronouncements just shows how crazy this entire thing has become and the lack of education in general and the media acquiescence in not asking proper questions. SadButMadLad January 14, 2021 at 5:54 pm @Jussi, the Covid fanatics will say that even if you’ve had Covid you can still pass it on to others by breathing in the virus and exhaling it on someone. Andrew M January 14, 2021 at 6:09 pm What Matt says. Six months ago the media were running panic stories about re-infections, suggesting that the illness was more severe the second time around. https://www.bbc.com/news/health-54512034 A man in the United States has caught Covid twice, with the second infection becoming far more dangerous than the first, doctors report. If catching it after already having antibodies is so bad, vaccination would be deadly. But we know from the phase III trials that the vaccine isn’t deadly – quite the opposite. Papers like this are just scaremongering masquerading as science. Baron Jackfield January 14, 2021 at 7:10 pm If it doesn’t provide immunity then I’d guess that just about every textbook on immunology in the world is wrong by about page 2. Weren’t the very rare cases of people catching it twice largely written-off as having had a false positive test first or second time, or being those unfortunates with severely-compromised immune systems? MC January 14, 2021 at 7:22 pm Something feels wrong about this PHE study How about this, why the fuck is PHE doing studies when we were assured that its total and utter uselessness meant it was being disbanded? Did someone forget to put a stake in its heart? Was the ground not salted thoroughly enough? BniC January 14, 2021 at 7:48 pm @sadbutmadlad that is what they are saying about the vaccine, doesn’t stop you spreading it so restrictions have to stay in place and you still have to follow the restrictions even if vaccinated. As a study showed men are twice as likely to be hospitalised as women I’m still waiting for the prioritisation to take this into account, meanwhile in Canada they are vaccinating remote communities with no Covid even before medical staff that are in daily contact. MC January 14, 2021 at 8:00 pm A particularly thick COVID bedwetter on the Spectator posted this https://www.gov.uk/government/news/past-covid-19-infection-provides-some-immunity-but-people-may-still-carry-and-transmit-virus Which another poster helpfully pointed out is abject bollocks. The conclusion is contradicted by the data and NONE of the people they claim might have been re-infected were actually tested for COVID first time round. Jussi January 14, 2021 at 8:04 pm I never realised one could breath in the virus and next second release forward it to others. Ridiculous. Than means we’ll be wearing the masks for a long time. My poor neighbour thinks he is able to take his annual trip to Spain and visit a pub in the summer because of the vaccine. One of those poor souls who trusts a “conservative government” – thinks it’s all to do with science, logic, common sense, reason and benevolence of the state. MrKing January 14, 2021 at 8:17 pm So let me get this right, you breath in the virus and then what? You hold your breath for 10 minutes until you get somewhere else and breath it out again? If not holding breath and moving around, then why doesn’t the other person get it anyway as they must be close by? Can’t be that you are hoovering it up like a basking whale then concentrating it all onto someone else. Grikath January 14, 2021 at 9:03 pm There is an insane amount of bullcrap going on about the WuFlu, including the official channels, that are not reflected in the current scientific publications ( still free and unfirewalled..) and even , as mentioned above, even the most basic textbooks about infectuous diseases. The main problem here is with the major media, who need a bit of had-it-coming in this respect. Peeps here should be all too familiar with the routine: Reporter: Is [x] possible? Scientist: Well no, not really. Reporter: So it is not impossible to have [x] happen? Scientist: well if you put it like that.. There’s always exceptions, but.. Next day in the paper: [x] can happen!! Boffin sez so!! The second problem is that the actual amout of antibodies against any pathogen in the blood is pretty low, and hard to ascertain. In scientific terms: the titer is very low, so the things are hard to detect. You can really only easily detect any amount of antibodies right after recuperation from a disease. So track and trace of antibody titers to see how long effective immunity lasts is actually really hard and expensive. It’s much easier to just jab someone and see if someone reacts to the infection. Unless you’re talking about really rare/dangerous pathogens, that is the same as running into it in the wild. Which for the WuFlu is currently something like every other day.. Giving recovered people an inoculation is not a bad thing. It’s a good way of testing whether the vaccine is effective and whether the person in question is one of the extremely rare cases where short-term re-infection can occur. So it’s a Win-Win, using a procedure which is Mostly Harmless. Incidentally, after the first wave of inoculation (couple 10.000 people, almost exclusively acute/primary care at high exposure risk) here in the Netherlands, the Adverse Effects counter stands at just over 100 reports of mild side effects (headaches, muscle pain, malaise ) and a total of three (3) cases of severe allergic reactions. So far the score over here for medical professionals who do know how to watch for signs, have almost certainly had prior exposure to the virus, or are already immune because they caught the bug early because of, well… work. I will assume brits aren’t too different from cloggies physically, and that peeps here are capable of doing basic statistic analysis. So figure out the odds yourself. I’ve so far not heard reports of people able to browse YouPron** with their eyeballs, so I’ve a feeling the 5G capability of the vaccine is rather disappointing, and wholly overrated. ** yes, most likely use-case. Stop making excuses. Bloke in Germany January 14, 2021 at 9:29 pm “If health care workers have been infected at those rates up to around 32% at some point in the Jun-Nov sampling period, then we’d expect the age standardised death rates of healthcare workers to reflect that and I don’t think it does.” Fake news. Almost no healthcare workers anywhere in the world have ever been infected because they are off work so much with false positive PCR tests, that are done on them up to twice a day, so they have basically zero exposure to sniffly sick patients coughing coronavirus all over them. The average nurse or doctor on the wards now sees a negative number of patients in a normal shift. So they actually have anti-coronavirus. That anti- not being the same thing as something that actually antis the inevitably fatal coronavirus. So the death rate of healthcare workers from coronavirus is, in fact, infinite. If you follow that. That’s why we have to prioritise them in the vaccine queue, d’oh. Bloody right-wing conspiracy theorists. Bloke in North Dorset January 14, 2021 at 9:51 pm “ @Jussi, the Covid fanatics will say that even if you’ve had Covid you can still pass it on to others by breathing in the virus and exhaling it on someone” Having the disease or vaccine just means you won’t get the disease again, it means you won’t get a severe bout of the disease. You can get infected and carry and spread the virus while the immune system kicks in. The question is how much virus do you carry and pass on while that happens and that’s where project fear fear comes in to its own. From what I’ve read the reduction in transmission is significantly reduced, but it’s not zero. DP January 14, 2021 at 9:56 pm Dear Mr King It’s a basking shark. Not a whale. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basking_shark /pendant DP PS Apparently I am posting too quickly. I am to slow down, according to whoever or whatever decides these things. The last time I posted on Mr Worstall.com was 12 January. What? DP Ummmm January 14, 2021 at 9:56 pm Didn’t the US CDC say that based on first 100,000 vaccinations that the adverse reactions being serious enough to make people take time off work was 10 times the rate for the flu vaccine Charles January 14, 2021 at 10:33 pm @Ummmm Almost, but not quite. They said that there were 21 cases out of 1,900,000. This is about ten times the rate for flu, but still so low as to make it very well worth while getting the vaccine. This is why people are being kept for observation for 15 minutes after being injected. Since the trials for each vaccine seem to have involved about 20,000 people getting the vacine, there would have been about a 20% chance of anyone in the study having such a reaction, so it’s hardly surprising that such a rare effect was not seen. To address Tim’s article, several of the vaccines are not traditional vaccines (which use the whole virus, either weakened or killed) as it only uses the spike protein, so there was a question of whether the immune response would be as strong as from catching the real thing. (It’s also theoretically possible that it might be stronger if it gets the immune system to concentrate on a particular vulnerability of the virus). dearieme January 14, 2021 at 10:55 pm “10 times the rate for the flu vaccine”: that’s the dreaded Relative Risk. Why you want is the Absolute Risk because, as Charles pointed out, ten times fuck all is still precious little. Grikath January 14, 2021 at 11:48 pm “You can get infected and carry and spread the virus while the immune system kicks in. The question is how much virus do you carry and pass on while that happens ” Which, in questions we can answer, is “next to bugger all”, provided: -one has been inoculated against a pathogen. -one has recently recovered from an infection with a pathogen -one has been infected with a pathogen, but did not develop symptoms because the immune system dealt with the pathogen before symptoms could develop. -the pathogen in question is currently doing the rounds in the population at large. Simply because the people who do have immunity ( through whichever route ) will have their immune system constantly triggered as long as the pathogen is endemic and active. The only way to “rebreathe” a virus under those conditions, is when it ends up in the “dead volume” of the respiratory system without getting trapped in the mucous membranes and consequently wtfpwned by the immune system, and get exhaled again. Given that our respiratory mucous membranes, especially the nasal passage, are designed to trap most of anything not air, and the “dead volume” of our lungs is pretty small, the chance of anything getting out again after inhaling is extremely small, and rapidly declining with each breath. The amount is not zero, but of the order of magnitude only OCD-ing beancounters or sensationalist journalists can get worked up over. Grikath January 14, 2021 at 11:54 pm Oh, and for peeps who do not have immunity, the chance of spreading the virus before actual symptoms develop is about as low. Simply because the virus is expelled from the body through expectoration of the mucous membrane, which then needs to have a high enough virus titer to actually matter. The virus is …not exactly sturdy.. so need a high titer to have enough particles survive to infect someone else. Which does not happen until actual symptoms develop.. At which point you should have been feeling Under The Weather for a day or two, and you should have stayed home anyway…. Stonyground January 15, 2021 at 8:09 am If this thing was really contagious it would surely have spread much more rapidly. I can recall milder flu bugs, the kind that incapacitate you for a few days, pass through almost the entire workforce at my workplace. Just about everybody got it so that for a few weeks about half of them were off work at any one time. Mr Womby January 15, 2021 at 10:14 am @Otto If you pay extra for the Pro vaccine you get Pinball and Freecell as well. Chris Miller January 15, 2021 at 2:34 pm FWIW (anecdata follows) at my sister’s surgery, all the staff have had their first vaccination, and are waiting 12 weeks for their second. Some of them are working at the local vaccination centre, and one day last week they had some shots left over (which would have been destroyed), so they gave a second vaccination to anyone who wanted it and had gone 3 weeks (the original timetable) since their first. All four of those so treated went down overnight with high temperatures and flu-like symptoms, but recovered after a couple of days. BniC January 15, 2021 at 4:58 pm @stonyground…..funnily enough exactly what happened where I work last January when a flu type bug swept through and everyone in the office was off at some point. None of us have caught Covid though and locally figures are low compared to other places, suspicion is it was something that may not have been Covid but close enough to provide some cross immunity. Mr Ecks January 16, 2021 at 8:37 am The shite vax hasn’t been proven effective let alone safe. And the CDC figs I saw on the net said 2.8% anaphylactic shock bad enuf to be unable to work and in need of med care. 3000 out of 105000. Rather too many for untested shite that the scummy state is desperate for you to take. To save Johnson’s career and his garbage govt. Leave a Reply Cancel replyYour email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *Comment Name * Email * Website Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment.