Oh, Bravo, yes, Bravo

Not a comment upon the actual policy itself, rather on the intellectual judo that has been done here:

Liz Truss, the equalities minister, said that LGBT+ people deserved to live their lives free from the threat of harm or abuse. “There should be no place for the abhorrent practice of coercive conversion therapy in our society,” she said.

Hmm. Well, generally I disagree. Agree with the coercive bit, of course, but the general idea that someone might have a chat with someone who might convince them that surgery is too extreme a response to same sex attraction seems fair to me.

But that’s not the point here. Rather, this:

Adults who try to persuade children to change their gender will face criminal sanctions under government plans.

From next spring it will be illegal to convince someone to change their sexuality or gender identity, with extra safeguards to protect adolescents.

Government sources suggested that organisations such as Mermaids, a charity that offers advice and counselling to children with gender dysphoria, could be outlawed. Trans rights groups said that the proposals risked having a “chilling effect” on free speech.

If conversion therapy is to be outlawed then conversion therapy is to be outlawed. Both ways.

It’s as with that shouting that domestic violence or controlling behaviour etc must be made illegal so it was. And then swathes of birds were dragged up before the courts which wasn’t what the campaigners meant at all.

That is, even when talking about turning geese into ganders the law is mighty in its equality.

The usual suspects aren’t going to like this at all which is what makes it such lovely intellectual judo.

17 thoughts on “Oh, Bravo, yes, Bravo”

  1. “Trans rights groups said that the proposals risked having a “chilling effect” on free speech.”

    Christ, my irony meter just exploded…

  2. These people have decided that it is a ‘medical issue only’, to be dealt with by hormone suppressants and surgery and in no way ever a ‘mental issue’ to be dealt with by counselling.
    is there any other area where this type of behaviour is acceptable? To deny people a treatment that may work because it doesn’t fit the agenda of a group of others? (Oh, Ivermectin, HCQ come to mind).

    The people pushing this line are insane. Definitely.

  3. I guarantee no one will ever be prosecuted under this law (the trans side of it, anyway), and everyone knows it.

    The odd pastor or two going on about homosexuality might get done.

  4. “Trans rights groups said that the proposals risked having a “chilling effect” on free speech.”

    Chill, man. (Or whatever)

  5. I assume this “conversion therapy” is conducted like other psychological therapies, i.e. one to one with the counsellor.
    So when enforcing the law it’s xe’s word against zer’s.

  6. Lol. Big if true. But I have zero faith in this being true, given who’s going to implement it.

    Under the practice, religious groups try to “cure” gay people through prayer or counselling.

    The horror!

    In extreme cases individuals have beeen subjected to violence or “corrective rape”.

    Damn those Anglicans!

    The new Conversion Therapy Protection Orders will work in a similar way to an existing scheme that allows officials to intervene on behalf of children at risk of female genital mutilation or forced marriage.

    A Canadian Dad is currently in jail for trying to (peacefully, mind) rescue his daughter from the transcult, and also warn other parents about the gender games being played by Canadian schools. They put him in a cage for addressing his daughter as the woman she is, and for refusing to obey a court order to shut up. This sounds like exactly that kind of thing.

    I want everyone to be able to love who they want

    Me too, but when I try to love Holly Willoughby it’s “stalking” and “rape”. Democracy has failed.

    Nancy Kelley, chief executive of Stonewall, welcomed the “huge step forward” on gay conversion therapy but urged the government to go further on prayer

    If prayer, as fools say, didn’t work, devils wouldn’t seek to outlaw it. But the Pantokrator hears all prayers said in his name – never doubt it.

    For Addolff is correct, “transgender” is a mental illness (a bouquet of them, actually). But mental sickness often comes from spiritual sickness. People who have no fixed beliefs and no sense of their existence in the image and likeness of God are easy meat for daevas, narakas, phantasms, witches and their bicornuate boss, Satan himself.

  7. . . . daevas, narakas, phantasms, witches and their bicornuate boss, Satan himself.

    People with irrational belief systems should be careful bandying about notions of mental illness, especially if the response to such supposed illness is “treatment” by state sanctioned services.

  8. PJF – it’s irrational to discount all human experience of the supernatural.

    Howsoever, I believe gender problems – certainly in men, maybe less so in women – could be successfully treated because they have a powerful addictive component and look very much like the kind of escalating dopamine chasing activities alcoholics and junkies do.

    The good news is that we know how to treat addiction. The bad news is it only works when the addict is determined to get better. The AA approach of surrendering to a Higher Power isn’t the only way to cure addiction, but it can be an effective one.

  9. It’s got bugger all to do with free speech and everything to do with preventing child abuse. Otherwise, like Julia, my irony meter went off the scale. The lack of self awareness of these creatures is impressive to say the least.

  10. The Left: “It doesn’t matter that the bakery is a private business. They have to bake a same-sex wedding cake!”

    Also the Left: “Facebook and Twitter can ban whoever they want. They’re private businesses.”

    Consistency is not their strong suit.

  11. From the article:

    From next spring it will be illegal to convince someone to change their sexuality or gender identity, with extra safeguards to protect adolescents.

    They should be careful what they wish for. It depends how the law is worded, obviously, but similar laws exist in other countries. For example, in Russia being gay isn’t illegal (heavily socially frowned on), but trying to convince people to be gay is, and promotion of the gay lifestyle.
    This “trying to convince adolescents to change their sexuality” could quite easily be turned against the intended protectees at a later date.

  12. I’m generally far less interested in these issues and the hysteria around them than many here seem to be (hence, perhaps, the draft laddie question that follows), and I’m still not quite sure I understand Tim’s “generally I disagree” paragraph as there seems quite a big leap between trying to persuade someone not to have surgery, which he had in mind, and trying to forcibly coerce them to change their sexuality, which Truss seems to have. However, the reference to Mermaids interests me.

    I take it there’s evidence of them and similar organisations actually seeking to “persuade” children to change their gender?

    If “persuade” means “coerce”, that would of course be horrendous, but there is surely an important role for charitable organisations that provide support and advice to gender dismorphic children and, if we as a society consider it appropriate for some individuals to have gender conversion surgery before finishing puberty (a big if, but if we don’t it’s simple because we just ban it and we don’t have to worry about what “persuade” means), to support them through the process.

    Of course, that support and advice should be impartial, although even this is difficult, and comes right back to what we mean by “persuade”. If a counselor or whatever says “here are the pros and cons of doing it, it’s an option, and it’s your decision”, that surely isn’t; if they say “here are the pros and cons and, on balance, I think it’s the best option for you” then does that cross the line? Maybe.

    Back to the question, is there any impartial (that word again!) detail on what Mermaids actually does? What approach do Mermaids counselors actually take?

  13. The way it works is child comes out as gay at a young age then a month or so later they have the mandatory gender identity session in school and the person who comes in to lead that ‘suggests’ to them they may be trans not gay and ‘encourages’ them to follow up with this, of course it gets the child a lot of attention and adults bending over to accommodate them so that’s not a factor obviously

  14. Howsoever, I believe gender God problems – certainly in men, maybe less so in women – could be successfully treated because they have a powerful addictive component and look very much like the kind of escalating dopamine chasing activities alcoholics and junkies do.

    See, I’ve seen pretty much the same thing said by people who want to “treat” religious types. Re-education camps, the lot (see communist China).

    Of course the gender batshit are potty (and so are people who believe in daevas, narakas, phantasms and witches) but that doesn’t mean we should adopt soviet style interventions (or those of witchfinders general).

    Once the Marxists have moved on (paedophilia next?) the trans will be thrown under the bus and the tiny minority of real feelers can go back to being quietly miserable.

    If it is paedoism promotion from the Marxists, then the difference between human evil and supernatural evil will be academic and I’ll happily join you in some righteous stake driving.

  15. PJF – I don’t know what you’re on about, apart from the fedora atheism boilerplate.

    I described (AGP) trannyism as being similar to other destructive addictions because it literally is like that, it operates in very much the same way. Religion is not and doesn’t, except maybe in the eyes of edgy 14 year olds on Reddit and your estimable self.

    Rounding them all up and putting them in some sort of Evil Butlins does appeal, but I’m actually talking about the much more boring and pedestrian subject of how people who suffer from addiction can be helped to overcome it. Mostly this involves moral support, because there’s not much else you can do. But sometimes that’s enough.

    It’s not easy, but alcoholics can stop drinking and heroin addicts can stop being Scottish, so it’s definitely possible for the genderly challenged to stop wanking themselves into oblivion before they end up like our feminism correspondent.

  16. Steve, I’m pleased you’re suggesting just a kind word and cup of tea. I’m just very wary of overuse of the mental illness label for opposing points of view (outside of jokes, of course, which are fine always). As I said, once the political venom has gone out of the trans debate, they’ll go back to being an unfashionable corner of sadness.

    Religion is not and doesn’t . . .

    I dunno tho, it’s amazing the number of times you manage to interject some froth into threads here, such as this one, that have nothing to do with religion. It’s almost as if you get off on it. And it’s pretty much the only time you’ll see me indulging in “atheism boilerplate”. As much as I’d like to be a cross between Blackadder and Kerr Avon, I’m really just a sentimental old fart. I actually like that Midwestern farmers fly the stars and stripes on their combines and go to church on Sunday and mean it.

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