THERE ARE NO excuses or justifications for what Vladimir Putin is doing in Ukraine. His brutal invasion is a bald-faced act of aggression, replete with war crimes, and is rightly being condemned as such by large numbers of people and nations across the globe. The targeting of civilian populations and infrastructure is a heinous act that belongs in the annals of major nation state crimes alongside the U.S. invasion of Iraq in 2003.
You got it……”but”…..
But the fact that Putin is trying to justify the unjustifiable does not mean that we must ignore the U.S. actions that fuel his narrative.
Those wittering on about ‘war crimes’ would have more credibility AFTER they have hanged Blair, Brown, Obama and a Bush or two.
Nebbage is my term for this sort of thing: “Not Excusing But …”
There is also a variant – narbage: “Not A Racist But …”
It’s “whataboutism”.
There’s a lot of it about. Russell Brand spent 3/4 of his condemnation of Putin condemning chimpymcbushhitler.
And then there’s two thirds of the commentariat here.
I dunno. I don’t think John Mearsheimer, for example, is an idjit and the POO POO PUTIN BAD MAN side of the equation is well represented elsewhere.
We don’t get a vote in Russia or Ukraine, but we do at least theoretically have a stake in what our own government does, and our government has yet to see an omnishambles it couldn’t make worse. St. Enoch (pbuh) told us the supreme function of statesmanship was to provide against preventable evils. Can we think of any evils they’ve managed to successfully prevent – instead of actively promote – this side of 1991? Any at all?
“And then there’s two thirds of the commentariat here.”
Well those of us in the ‘If you keep poking the bear eventually you get mauled, and its largely your fault’ camp have some pretty good company:
https://twitter.com/RnaudBertrand/status/1498491107902062592?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1498491107902062592%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.zerohedge.com%2Fgeopolitical%2Fstunning-admission-ukraine-former-top-level-cia-official
Plenty of people who cannot be tarred with the ‘friend of Russia/Putin’ brush have pointed out over the last 30 years that if the US (or its proxy NATO) continues to expand east it will prove to be a catastrophe. And everyone of them has been proved right.
But of course the West’s hands are entirely squeaky clean when the SHTF, as ever……..its never our fault, its always those nasty Russians (or whoever is the bogey nation du jour).
Steve nails it.
We aren’t responsible for what the Russians or Putin gets up to.
We are responsible for our own actions though, and the West has done nothing other than stir shit and create chaos throughout the world since as long as I remember.
We all know the likes of Boris, never mind the rest of the establishment, would happily lie through their teeth to ‘nudge’ us into whatever retarded schemes they cook up to signal their virtue, (and line their pockets) – at our cost.
“Where there is discord, may we bring harmony. Where there is error, may we bring truth. Where there is doubt, may we bring faith. And where there is despair, may we bring hope.”
Sadly, the kind of people who said things like that and meant it, are a distant memory now.
“How do we get to the place where, you know, Putin decides he’s gonna just invade Russia”
President Joe Biden latest brain fart.
80 million votes!
See what I mean? The right in the US are also on this “it’s all our fault” crusade, and as well as being pathetic it’s likely to cost them the mid-terms.
“Where there is discord, may we bring harmony. Where there is error, may we bring truth. Where there is doubt, may we bring faith. And where there is despair, may we bring hope.”
Sadly, the kind of people who said things like that and meant it, are a distant memory now.
Bollocks. We all know it was Saint Francis of Assisi who provoked the Falklands War by trying to give them away and neglecting the defences. It was all for electoral purposes. It’s all our fault. No blood for fish oil!
My favorite excuse from Putin is that the Azov Brigade in Ukraine justifies a Russian invasion.
And then he has the bollocks to send in his Chechen brigade shortly after.
. . . send in his Chechen brigade shortly after.
Not to mention awarding Vladimir Zhoga a “Hero of the
Soviet UnionRussian Federation” merit badge.That usefully dead cunt was head of the Sparta Battalion, the Russian “separatist” version of Azov.
@ PJF
Can’t make this shit up.
@Tim the Coder, March 8, 2022 at 5:14 pm
You forgot Cameron & Clegg destroying Libya
@PJF, March 8, 2022 at 6:22 pm
Pointing out the West, NATO and Ukraine’s provocation of Russia which many warned would cause a war does not make one a Putin appeaser. If we don’t recognise our errors they continue and make matters worse
The current West approach is making matters worse as we double down on provoking the Russian bear more every hour
@Jim, March 8, 2022 at 7:56 pm
Good post, I agree
Excellent analysis here
@ Pcar
It’s not appeasing Putin at all to criticize the West for getting too involved in world policing, or nation-building, or implementing weak foreign policy when dealing with unstable dictators (e.g., the Iran Nuclear Deal).
I don’t think we should be doing anything beyond providing weapons to give Ukraine a fair fight (I don’t expect Ukrainians to become a mass terrorist group like the Mujahideen). Also, the no-fly zone strategy some are spitting out is completely naive.
However, nothing Putin or the hindsight Harrys have said passes as justification for this invasion.
A lot of the excuses to me have sounded like when a murder takes place, and conservatives blame rap/video games while the liberals blame guns. At the end of the day, it’s no one’s fault but the murderer. He pulled the trigger. Putin decided to invade, no one else. Most of his “reasons” for invading are a huge stretch and often hypocritical. And as he’s demonstrating at this very moment, Russia has enough power and big enough balls in its leadership to not be threatened by Ukraine, even if they did join NATO. What tf kind of “defending” is Putin doing? He’s been a bigger threat to his own citizens than Ukraine ever was. Especially now.
And even if there was some kind of “imminent danger” to Russia, it’s pretty clear Putin skipped a few steps in the de-escalation process. He obviously was going to invade sooner or later. The fact that he’s had to lie to his country, shut down all independent media, make bullshit claims about “de-Nazifying” Ukraine while he gathers his own Chechens and attacks a whole bunch of non-Nazis in Kharkiv, speaks volumes. It’s the same way that we all saw through the government’s COVID and election bullshit when they had to shut down “misinformation.” Only liars are that desperate.
Is Ukraine completely innocent? Of course not. They have their bullshit too. But I don’t see any of their troops chucking missiles at apartment buildings and hospitals right now. I also don’t see nearly as many Russians trying to flee their country.
And I agree, we shouldn’t escalate the situation. That’s why I don’t like the idea of any outside countries sending troops or assassinating Putin. But Ukraine is a sovereign country that can join any alliance it wants, no matter how close it is to Russia. Just like Russia is allowed to get cozy with the shitstain Chinese and Iranian governments. Putin is only invading Ukraine as a matter of ego and power. Before Putin, these two countries were somehow able to live without a major conflict after the Soviet Union collapsed. Putin is the problem here, no one else.
So if Putin is a bully, but he has nuclear weapons, then any country he feels like invading should just bend over and surrender? Just let him take Ukraine? Latvia? Belarus? Georgia? Finland? He isn’t going to stop as long as he goes unchallenged. And even if surrendering saves some lives in the short-term, maintaining a power-hungry Russia isn’t going to reduce the threat of war. It’s just going to kick the can further down the road.
So, at the very least, maybe Putin could have tried talking it out a little more before going in and solidifying himself as a war criminal. A “preemptive strike” was not a very bright idea.
Excellent analysis here
Is it? How do you know? You have no idea who’s behind that website – because it is unknown. You don’t have to search far to find people saying it’s Russian. It’s obviously anti-western propaganda masquerading as objective academic output. Even wikipedo thinks it’s dodgy.
I followed one chain of background “information” about nasty amerikkka hiring “foreign snipers” on rooftops to kill people for “regime change” – it led to a leftist Canadian professor who grew up in communist Ukraine and is now writing articles for truthout.org, for fucks sakes.
The current West approach is making matters worse as we double down on provoking the Russian bear more every hour
Yes, every punch you rain down on the guy who just invaded your home makes him cross. You should stop, give him the keys to the Mercedes and show him into the kids’ room.
Yes, every punch you rain down on the guy who just invaded your home
Yeah ignore the fact that you’ve been shitting on his lawn fir twenty years, despite him repeatedly asking you not to.
I’ll ask the binary thinkers on here a question.
What would have been the US response if Cuba had requested to join the Warsaw Pact?
And as a follow up, they werent just hosting nukes, but anti ballistic missiles and biological weapons development?
@ Flubber
Every time I hear arguments from this side, they always leave out the deaths of innocent people. Someone with a valid argument wouldn’t be covering up that piece of the situation. One-sided arguments are extremely amateur.
Even if I had been shitting on my neighbor’s lawn for twenty years, there are still more than a few steps between repeatedly asking me not to and shooting me dead.
Yes, Ukraine had their own military development. You know, because they’re a sovereign nation and all. And because their neighbor isn’t known for bringing housewarming gifts. Ukraine, and the other European countries I’m sure Putin is about to attack, gave up any nukes on their soil in 1994. I noticed you “conveniently” left that part out as well.
On the other hand, still looks like Russia has the largest nuclear arsenal in the world. So your point is kind of moot.
How many more ex-RT employees are going to feign these “logical explanations” for Putin? Please explain, are you a minion, or simply a contrarian?
Yeah ignore the fact that you’ve been shitting on his lawn fir twenty years, despite him repeatedly asking you not to.
Wrong two dimensional analogy. Correct 4D one: I’ve been gradually taking legal action to reclaim land he stole.
This bollocks about “NATO’s eastward expansion” is ridiculous.
The arse fell out of the previous version of nasty, corrupt and incompetent Russia, and the countries it had oppressed for decades didn’t fancy going back under its boot as it gradually got its nasty shit together, so they joined the alliance designed to protect against Russia. NATO didn’t push, it was pulled (not that it minded).
Russia doesn’t like it? Fuck them.
Please explain, are you a minion, or simply a contrarian?
I think it’s partly just a case of regular folk having been spun a line of bullshit by oppressive government and lapdog media for two years, and now all of a sudden those same lying arseholes are jumping up and down about Ukraine. It’s perfectly natural that there’s a momentum of disbelief.
@ PJF
I’m old enough, as I’m sure you are as well, to understand that virtually every government does some shady shit. Zelenskyy isn’t the perfect leader that the Left is making him out to be. And yes, Ukraine needs to deal will the Azov Battalion. Maybe that should wait until after Russia stops killing his citizens, though.
And that’s just it. Most people who see this invasion for what it is, they don’t have these rose-colored glasses on. And they’ll concede that it’s a complex situation. These shills think we’re actually going to fall for a complete cover-up of Russia’s actions. It’s the oldest trick in the book. It’s like when Ariel Castro was caught keeping and torturing three women in his basement dungeon in Cleveland for ten years. When he gave his statement in the courtroom, the guy was so deluded he focused all the attention on himself and cried about being portrayed as a monster in the media. He had the audacity to say, “We had some good times in that house too.” He even went into how well-versed he was in “the art of masturbation,” but forgot to mention all of the beatings and ratings he made those women endure. People will twist the truth in all kinds of ways, sometimes because they can’t handle it, and sometimes because they think they can trick everyone else. That was Ted Bundy’s view, at least.
I don’t know if these government servants are paid or forced by the Kremlin to say these things, if they’re somehow defending their ethnicity (I’m Russian/Ukrainian/Belarusian/Polish/Jewish descent, by the way, so that argument doesn’t quite work), or if they’re just sociopathic ideologues who don’t understand how to get along with different people. But they are complete children when it comes to their tactics. I’ve seen 14-year-olds with better arguing skills when they get grounded.
A mature argument about a complicated issue involves looking at several angles. You have to understand where your opposition is coming from and show that you see their point. It’s only then that you can effectively make your case, whether it’s right or wrong. From my point of view, I can certainly concede the many things that Ukraine did wrong. Hell, I can talk about all the things the U.S. did wrong too. You think Americans don’t know about Hunter Biden and the money our president is still probably making from that Burisma deal? It’s only then that I can say that Russia cannot pretend to care about NeO-NaZiS when they have a Kadyrovtsy problem of their own. Their leader is one of the few people that make me shiver when I hear him speak in interviews.
But these beginner-level propagandists don’t know how to form a complete argument. I think Putin and his minions are trying to bank on the CRT and SJW bullshit that’s been happening over here. They think “Nazi” is some magic word that will get us on their side. They’re so primitive that they actually believe Twitter hashtags and trending articles are a legitimate window into the Western psyche. Russia is putting all their faith into the AntiFa audience, not realizing how small a percentage they are out of ~350 million people just in the U.S. alone. If you’re going to execute such a huge military operation and fuck up Russia’s entire reputation to such an extent, you should probably do your research. Even China isn’t this bad at bullshit.
So they think we’re not going to ask any questions…like, “How many nuclear warheads does the Azov Battalion have?” or “How many nuclear warheads does the entire country of Ukraine have?” or “If this invasion really is about defeating neo-Nazis, then why are you killing so many non-Nazis?” Maybe these guys don’t understand the kind of freedom the West still has to go outside an official narrative.
Back in the late 1940s, Stalin had Russian theaters show “The Grapes of Wrath,” a film about the Great Depression, to his citizens to promote the idea that capitalism creates extreme poverty and oppression. But when the Russian people saw that even the poorest Americans could still afford a car, while the Soviets were eating their own children for survival not long before, the entire strategy failed. Just like then, Putin’s interns are fresh out of ideas. They’re reduced to throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks. They have no plan. They’re done.
The vast majority of Russian immigrants now living in the U.S. are against Putin’s invasion. I’ll trust their opinion over some snarky adolescent any day.
aldkfslkjf @ 1.32. “Is Ukraine completely innocent? Of course not. They have their bullshit too. But I don’t see any of their troops chucking missiles at apartment buildings and hospitals right now”.
Possibly, you aren’t looking hard enough…..:https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=424865086062808&id=100056179608826&sfnsn=scwspwa
The first casualty etc..
Everything before the word “but” is horseshit
Before believing the MSM & establishment lines once again remember – “In literally the last week and a half: we went from “There are NO Nazi militias fighting in place of the Ukrainian military in Eastern Ukraine and there are NO U.S. funded bioweapons lab there either you stupid conspiracy theory idots!” to “Oh you meant THOSE private Nazi militia groups and THOSE U.S. funded bioweapons labs!” They lost control, folks. They’re not on control any more. That’s why you’re watching them frantically being overtaken by events right now.”
“But Ukraine is a sovereign country that can join any alliance it wants, no matter how close it is to Russia.”
Does the same apply to Canada and Mexico?
aldkfslkjf
and the other European countries I’m sure Putin is about to attack
Seriously? The ones that are already members of NATO with Article 5 guarantees? You’ve just said “A mature argument about a complicated issue involves looking at several angles” and then you come out with that?
How many more ex-RT employees are going to feign these “logical explanations” for Putin? Please explain, are you a minion
Flubber and lots others here questioning the overwhelming UK MSM position are simply regulars on here?
I think PJF is a lot closer with “I think it’s partly just a case of regular folk having been spun a line of bullshit by oppressive government and lapdog media for two years, and now all of a sudden those same lying arseholes are jumping up and down about Ukraine. It’s perfectly natural that there’s a momentum of disbelief.”
Except that it’s not really just the last two years. OK, the last two years has made it obvious to anyone who hadn’t previously paid attention, but the MSM spinning bullshit is mostly part of its DNA. And questioning any such narrative is sort of what people do round here…
Article about President Zelensky and his backers which might help to explain the West’s support for Ukraine:
https://www.politico.eu/article/volodomyr-zelenskiy-ihor-kolomoisky-the-comedian-and-the-oligarch-ukraine-presidential-election/
Nessimmersion – “In literally the last week and a half: we went from “There are NO Nazi militias fighting in place of the Ukrainian military in Eastern Ukraine and there are NO U.S. funded bioweapons lab there either you stupid conspiracy theory idots!” to “Oh you meant THOSE private Nazi militia groups and THOSE U.S. funded bioweapons labs!”
You’d get whiplash from following this story. Absolutely crazy stuff. I’m old enough to remember when Trump was a paranoid lunatic for noticing they were tapping his phones.
aldkfslkjf – Russia is putting all their faith into the AntiFa audience
No, that’s mistaken. The nazi message isn’t aimed at Westerners (Russia isn’t really trying to propagandize to Westerners, they probably know it’s a waste of time given they’ve already been deplatformed), it’s aimed at Russians.
Russians don’t like nazis very much. The WW2 mythos is much more strongly embedded in their national identity than ours, given how the Nazis tried to enslave or exterminate their grampas. The Ukies really do have armed and uniformed neo nazi groups running around murdering people in the Donbass. (Zelensky seems to have tried to do something about that, but although he’s been in office since 2019, he’s never been in power)
It’s not a good excuse for invading Ukraine, but it is an excuse some sections of the Russian public will believe.
PJF – The right in the US are also on this “it’s all our fault” crusade, and as well as being pathetic it’s likely to cost them the mid-terms.
I don’t think either is actually true. The neocons never went away, you know, they’ve been fighting a desperate counteroffensive to secure the right half of the Uniparty ever since Trump disrupted them. Mainstream RINOs are competing with each other for who can be the toughest tough guy who ever toughly tweeted. 100% of the American MSM is fully on board with 24/7 hatecasts about Russia, Russia, Russia, and slow-witted normies have already completely forgotten about all the previous disastrous foreign wars and are excited for the next one.
BiB – Sadly, the kind of people who said things like that and meant it, are a distant memory now.
I think a major difference between the Blessed Margaret’s time and now was that 80’s politicians had lived through WW2. So, the nasty little war in the Falklands wasn’t undertaken lightly. Mrs T agonised over her decision.
Our new Bourbon biscuit politicians have forgotten nothing and learned nothing from WW2. Every year is 1938 to our pound-shop Churchills, every Johnny Foreigner tyrant du jour is Another Hitler. Every conflict or potential conflict a simple choice between cowardly, craven, pants-pissing Appeasement (boo!) and a glorious, righteous armed struggle for Freedom and Democracy and LGBTQIA rights and high quality broadband (yay!) in which we will, naturally, prevail because history has directional arrows painted on the side.
I think a major difference between the Blessed Margaret’s time and now was that 80’s politicians had lived through WW2.
Another major difference is you were much younger in those days so life seemed simpler. Back then the people were patriots who waved flags and cheered the task force. Now they’re slow-witted npc sheeple.
I’m not sure this “nuance” is all it’s cracked up to be.
you were much younger in those days so life seemed simpler
True. But the other thing is, I think technology is overstimulating our brains and maybe killing them.
In 1982 you didn’t have 300 channels, broadcasting 24/7, and everybody glued to social media (more like ANTIsocial media, amirite? Heh) which operates in a turbo-darwinian digital ecosystem algorithmically optimized to stimulate fear and rage because those are the strongest emotions that drive engagement.
Our brains are still on Pleistocene Era 1.0 hardware, good for chase big elephant, escape fierce cat, and make sex to Ugella with the pendulous boobies. They were never designed to be constantly bombarded with “information” from everywhere on the planet.
Back then the people were patriots who waved flags and cheered the task force. Now they’re slow-witted npc sheeple.
If you compare late 70’s, early 80’s interviews with Mrs Thatcher, Michael Foot and other politicos to current day public disclosure, the cognitive decline is evident and severe. They no longer speak in paragraphs, and people no longer have discussions (the infamous Jordan Peterson C4 car crash from a couple of years ago is a classic of the genre), instead it’s all glib soundbites and grown men emoting like pregnant women, punctuated by moronic audiences clapping like seals.
Algernon is dead. No flowers.
@ Addolff
So, I click on that link and it’s a random idiot who posted on Facebook. There were also random idiots on Facebook who said their “two-year-old daughter is afraid to go outside because President Trump said CNN is fake news.” If there was any weight to your argument, you would have at least one good piece of evidence. You aren’t even providing a good photoshopped image in this case.
@ PF
Well, he’s even threatened the U.S. at this point, so either those countries are also on the table for him, or Putin’s claims (including the one about “needing” to invade Ukraine) are full of shit. I would say it’s at least a possibility he’s thinking about it. Putin’s all obsessed about these Russian-speaking regions. I don’t see Spain still trying to get Mexico back.
I also see a constant omission of the fact that Russia has the world’s largest nuclear arsenal, as well as superior airpower over Ukraine. If you’re going to talk about the Azov Battalion, you also have to talk about Chechnya. Not one person defending Putin’s invasion has mentioned the Beslan school hostage crisis. Russia has Islamic terrorists who murder Russian citizens in Russia. And Putin didn’t even have the decency to visit the survivors in the hospital. He’s been very friendly to Razman Kadyrov and enlisted the Chechen mercenaries to help invade Ukraine. If you’re upset about Azov, you should be even more upset about the Chechens, who are backed by a much more powerful government. I am willing to concede that there are neo-Nazis in Ukraine. I don’t support that. When are the Putin defenders going to concede that Russia has done even one thing wrong in this situation?
I’m all for questioning official MSM narratives. I’m not for *only* considering the alternative narratives. Reality is usually somewhere in the middle. I don’t trust the government in New York City. I’m still going to listen to the traffic signals on the street.
@ Jim
Yes, the exact same courtesy applies to Mexico and Canada. Mexico’s murderers, rapists, drug traffickers, sex traffickers, MS-13 gang members, etc. have been invading the U.S. by the millions for decades now. Even our politicians who were toughest on illegal immigration haven’t started shelling non-criminals in Mexico. Much of the West thought we were “racist” just for building a frickin’ wall. In fact, until Biden, we were able to significantly reduce the flow of illegal border crossings by *incentivizing* Mexico to curb migrants from Guatemala, Honduras and other South American countries. We realized there are steps you can take without jumping to mass murder as a solution. Over a million Ukrainian refugees (according to sources outside of Ukraine and Russia). How many refugees from any region of Russia right now? Why do you think there is such a difference between those two numbers?
Any sovereign country can join any alliance. If Russia is insecure about that, they certainly have the ability to build a wall on that part of their border, invest in an Iron Dome system…oh, and they have the *largest nuclear arsenal in the world* to fall back on. Funny how so many of you keep hiding that fact.
@ Steve
“Russians don’t like nazis very much. The WW2 mythos is much more strongly embedded in their national identity than ours, given how the Nazis tried to enslave or exterminate their grampas. The Ukies really do have armed and uniformed neo nazi groups running around murdering people in the Donbass. (Zelensky seems to have tried to do something about that, but although he’s been in office since 2019, he’s never been in power)”
Exactly. No one ever said Ukraine is completely innocent. And as you later said, that’s not a good excuse for invading. Your analysis is a great example of looking at multiple angles. Also, good insight on Russians’ attitudes toward Nazis. I also realize there are many of them who are nostalgic for the Soviet era. That’s why I talk to Russians who have also experienced living in the West. They’re much more informed when it comes to what’s actually going on.
Also, mostly correct about the neocons in the U.S. Mitt Romney and Adam Kinzinger (and Liz Cheney, and Lindsay Graham, etc.) are zombies from the old Republican Party. One reason Trump was so popular among conservatives, is because he didn’t want to get us involved in another pointless war. He wanted Putin to respect our strength, and to be unaware of our every next move, but the days of nation-building and “exporting democracy” were supposed to be over. Those conflicts didn’t help America, either. The RINOs not only want to play “tough guy,” but they also have this pompous sense of statesmanship, which you saw with the “January 6th” bullshit. They called it an “insurrection,” even though no one was ever charged with that crime, and the majority of protesters were just charged with a form of trespassing. Didn’t stop the government from issuing harsh sentences and long, drawn-out trials, though. They were more upset about someone picking up Nancy Pelosi’s podium for a selfie, than about murders and billions of dollars of damage in the AntiFa/BLM riots all year.
The most telling example of the neocon warmongering is when Rep. Kinzinger retweeted a picture of the “Ghost of Kyiv,” which was just a poorly photoshopped prank from comedian Sam Hyde. The RINO is so hungry for dead troops that he cheered on a fake flying ace.
I love the binary thinkers and the Putin shill accusations.
You’re such NPC pricks.
If you can’t see shades of gray, you’re a twat.
Anyone willing to bet £20 against China being treated markedly differently when they invade Taiwan?
If you were able to see shades of gray, you would be able to give us an example of just *one* thing Putin has done wrong, other than not punishing Ukraine enough. I and others have been able to give several examples of *both* sides making bad decisions and spreading propaganda, even if it doesn’t justify an invasion. We aren’t the ones glossing over and outright omitting important details.
Do you have any idea how weak your arguments are? That’s because you think you’re some kind of underground inside man, while the rest of us are NPC sheep from that 1984 Apple commercial. You care more about being edgy than about learning what’s actually going on. That’s not entertaining enough for you.
Please don’t tell me you own a Guy Fawkes mask.
And for the record, I hate President Xi exponentially more than Putin. I would love for our corporations to call all ties with the CCP, and I will not be one of those children who feel differently because it’s not a “white” country. Sorry that I’m not Jeff Bezos and can’t do anything about it.
Anyone willing to bet £20 against China being treated markedly differently when they invade Taiwan?
Whatever happens to Taiwan it will be all our fault because that’s just really clever ‘n stuff.
China blames NATO for pushing Russia to ‘breaking point’ over Ukraine
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10593497/China-blames-NATO-pushing-Russia-breaking-point-Ukraine-condemns-sanctions.html
Wow, so many shades of trinary.
aldkfslkjf
Para 1 – You think he’s (literally) going to attack European NATO countries based on comments he’s made to the US (that looked to me essentially like he was trying to deter them from getting too involved)? OK. Doesn’t really pass any smell test whatsoever to me, but whatever floats your boat?
Para 2 – “If you’re going to talk about the Azov Battalion”. Eh? I didn’t.
Para 3 – “I’m not for *only* considering the alternative narratives.” Seems like a lot of different and alternative views above, people making arguments on both sides? Looks interesting from here… 🙂
Re your response to Jim. You’ve started by willfully conflating the Monroe Doctrine with stuff like immigration/walls etc? And to be clear, the US, rightly or wrongly, have acted against your assertion that “Any sovereign country can join any alliance” in the western hemisphere (and which you understand perfectly well). So – whatever the other arguments – no, that statement is simply not true.
Sigh, any excuse one can grasp to justify invading a country and killing innocent people.
Everyone else’s fault. Putin hasn’t done enough, actually. Needs to kill more innocent civilians and destroy more cities. One segment of the population means everyone needs to die until Zelenskyy surrenders. Russia doesn’t have the world’s largest nuclear arsenal. Russia doesn’t have a region called Chechnya. Who’s this Kadyrov character you speak of? Nothing ever happened to Georgia. It’s literally impossible for Russia and Ukraine to get along. All of this needed to happen, and you’re a brainwashed libtard NPC if you present opposing arguments backed up by photographic and video evidence. By the way, check out this text typed by this person. Totally disproves the MSM. I don’t just think in black-and-white, but don’t expect me to mention even *one* thing that Putin has done wrong. There are no Russian or Ukrainian immigrants in the U.S. or UK, let alone thousands of them, to refute Putin’s claims. In fact, with over a million Ukrainian refugees in Poland and other nearby countries, Putin will need to “de-Nazify” them too! U.S. did the exact same thing. So did UK and the EU. You can’t be against Putin, because I’m assuming you loved the hell out of Bush and Obama. No other country has ever had to deal with conflict with their neighbors. Mass murder was obviously the only option left for Russia. Can’t believe everyone’s getting so bent out of shape over it.
Better?
@aldkfslkjf: yes because the US would really allow Mexico to ally itself militarily with China, and be perfectly happy with the PLA to setting up shop just south of the Rio Grande………
@ Jim
At the very least, there would be several steps between joining an alliance (no matter how unholy) and decimating the entire country. Cuba and Venezuela are pretty cozy with Russia and China already. And the street gangs coming out of Mexico/South America are on par with many terrorist groups as far as their violence.
And if you’re going to bring up the Cuban Missile Crisis, which was 60 years ago, may as well tell Germany, Italy and Russia to accept military invasions as well, because Hitler, Mussolini and Stalin. This blame shifting does nothing for your argument.
Russia has the largest nuclear arsenal in the world. It is also one of the most powerful countries in the world. If Putin has a problem with Azov Battalion (as I also do), you cannot convince me he had no other choice besides killing non-Nazis along with them. Russia was and is a much bigger threat to Ukraine than Ukraine is to them. You’re going to tell me there’s no other way for them to intimidate Zelenskyy into resolving the issue?
By the way, you want to talk about terrorist regimes being used by a government? I agree that using Azovs or Al Qaeda, or any other terrorist group is immoral and unjustified. You cannot mention Ukraine’s problem without mentioning the Chechens and…oh hey, Russia’s relationship with Iran. Not just some random country rife with terrorism, but the one country with the largest donations to terrorists throughout the world. So please excuse me for not pitying poor little vulnerable Putin.
Western countries need to divest from China, Iran and Russia, and stay away from investing in Saudi oil. Increase domestic energy production and stay the fuck out of wars that don’t directly involve us. Unfortunately, with all of the intertwined global relationships our countries and corporations have, that’s not likely to happen anytime soon.
But the least you can do is not completely ignore one side of the issue. If there’s a specific group of people attacking a region of your country, deal with them. But don’t expect any global support when you use a scorched earth strategy. That didn’t work for the U.S. either. If Putin was targeting members of Azov, or just containing the war to the Donbas region, for instance, maybe he’d have a shred of credibility to his claims. If that was honestly his motive for this war, there wouldn’t be 1-2 million refugees fleeing the country. He also wouldn’t be so paranoid about the truth coming out, that he sends police officers to check Russian teens’ phones. Even in these two countries, not all of the footage is coming from Call of Duty.
. . . the US would really allow Mexico to ally itself militarily with China, and be perfectly happy with the PLA to setting up shop just south of the Rio Grande
Russia already has five NATO members with land borders to its territory yet somehow survives. And if NATO membership for Ukraine was the real issue then the (previous) status quo would suffice to keep it out. There is absolutely no way NATO members would permit entry of a country that was already under partial occupation by Russia. Just not going to happen.
The most obvious answer (other than him having syphilis or something) is that Putin simply wanted Ukraine (in similar fashion to how he has Belarus) and thought he could get away with grabbing it.
@Pcar, March 8 @ 11.46pm
I was interested to read your link, not least because swprs.org was a previously bookmarked resource for covid info.
But I baulked a little at: “In 1939, the US and Britain appear to have used Poland to provoke a German attack and launch World War II, as diplomatic documents recovered in Warsaw later showed.”
Now maybe this is a counterfactual that I’ve neglected to give due consideration, but the link it led to – and the vast majority of the 900+ comments beneath it – suggested otherwise.
Must confess this seems doubtful to me as well Krakow Josh. I simply cannot see why the Brits would have wished to fight Germany over Poland.
The claims that Britain had some sort of power to make Poland do as it wished is, to me, quite absurd.