There’s a little tale – which we admit we can’t quite nail down right now – about the plethora of cutlery that sits upon an aristocratic dinner table. It doesn’t actually matter in the slightest which knife, which fork, is used to do what – nor even that they fire their asparagus at each other from cannons. What does matter is that they know and you don’t. That makes them inside the group, you outside it and that’s the purpose of the enterprise.
Orwell maybe? Thurber?
MichelFoucault – Me and My Spoon
As any fule kno, ome starts at the outside and works your way in.
Saw Sarah Ferguson lay a table on telly. She learnt it at school
Way back in the 1980s I had a girlfriend from this sort of background. The most formal meal I attended with the family was Christmas Dinner, to which the local Tory MP was invited.
He did everything he could to make me feel out of place, including that pointless thing about passing the port. My girlfriend’s mother, though,as the hostess, went the extra mile to discreetly make everyone feel comfortable. For her, ritual and form were at the service of kindness. What my own mum would have called “a real lady”.
Passing the Port pointless? Then you can never have dined at a table where a group at one end hog the Port and nobody else gets any.
Educated when they understood the priority for a woman wasn’t to stuff her head full of nonsense, but to snag the best man she could and make him happy (and by association, herself), now they’re all just jumping from one cock to the next, can’t cook an omelette to save their lives and are all as miserable as hell about their “freedom”.
Dearieme:
What’s pointless is the custom of only passing it to the left, rather than just ensuring that it goes to whoever wants it.
Sam – there’s a (probably apocryphal) anecdote about Queen Victoria:
As the story goes, Queen Victoria was hosting a guest from a foreign country. At the end of the meal, finger bowls of water were passed around so that everyone could clean their hands. The guest of honour had never seen such a thing so he lifted it to his mouth and drank it. Stunned silence passed through the room until the Queen raised her finger bowl to her mouth and drank. And then all the guests followed suit.
I’ve heard different versions of this story, attributed to different people and historical periods, but the point is always the same. The purpose of etiquette isn’t to boost self-esteem (we probably have too much of that in our culture), but it isn’t to humiliate your guests either.
Hospitality is more important than etiquette, unless you wipe your bum on the curtains.
Sam Vara, Steve; A A Gill once wrote that etiquette is about excluding people but manners is about including people.
“What’s pointless is the custom of only passing it to the left, rather than just ensuring that it goes to whoever wants it.”
No; that doesn’t work. Fred and Bert just pass it back and forward and, if leaning across the table, tend to knock things over.
Similar to Nancy Mitford’s “U and non-U” about language – it’s a shibboleth, designed to show who is in the group and, more importantly, who isn’t.
Mitford even pointed out that, once the parvenus learn, the U-language is changed again. On the cutlery front, I think the same thing happened to fish knives, which are now a symbol of arriviste pretentiousness.
“Mitford even pointed out that, once the parvenus learn, the U-language is changed again. On the cutlery front, I think the same thing happened to fish knives, which are now a symbol of arriviste pretentiousness.”
It’s probably marginal, but a fish knife is a better knife for fish than a regular knife. Like most etiquette, people did invent these things for a reason.
It’s like people think I’m being fancy using a decanter. And I do have a particularly fancy crystal one that someone bought me, but I also decant reds into a £5 Ikea decanter because it’s about the oxidisation.
I hate fashion because it’s for ignorant jerks with no taste. The only upside is that you increase your social circle, but then, your social circle are a bunch of wankers. Better to do what you please and you’ll meet some interesting weirdos who also like prawn cocktail, riesling wine and think tattoos are fucking ugly.
On the cutlery front, I think the same thing happened to fish knives, which are now a symbol of arriviste pretentiousness.
Never trust a man who thinks he’s too good for a Pot Noodle and a wank.
Jon – I reckon so. Hospitality, i.e. manners, seems to be deeply ingrained in human culture, from the Bedouins to Ben Nevis. But so is being a cunt.
@BoM4: I must be missing something here, because I’ve tried decanting and I must be doing something wrong because I struggle to tell the difference. How long am I supposed to decant it for? An hour, six?
you’ll meet some interesting weirdos who also like prawn cocktail, riesling wine and think tattoos are fucking ugly
Have we met?
It’s all a bit much to fit on t’tray in front of t’telly.
Port, unlike the other wines which were poured by servants, was self-service.
The decanter would rest with the host – start with the host and be passed round so everyone gets some, and returned to the host. It was not on-request, only when the host decided and offered another glass or top up, then it did another turn of the table.
Why to the left? Because most people are right handed. Pour with the right hand, pass it with the right hand into the right hand of the person to the left. Practical.
The thing about etiquette is it wasn’t conjured up out of a void to belittle the unwary, but evolved for practical reasons. Maybe some of those reasons no longer exist.
Fish knives for example- blunt, flat, with a rounded point. You don’t need a sharp knife to cut cooked fish, and by sliding the knife under the flesh of a whole fish, along the bone you can lift a fillet. You don’t need one for fish and chips and few people have whole fish, either fillets already or in batter, so fish knives these days rarely have any practical use.
40 mins to an hour is generally plenty for decanting.
“@BoM4: I must be missing something here, because I’ve tried decanting and I must be doing something wrong because I struggle to tell the difference. How long am I supposed to decant it for? An hour, six?”
I leave it an hour. Honestly, I’m not even sure how much it’s psychological, but I’ve been told by experts that it makes a difference on older wines. I just do it as a matter of course now.
Ah. That’ll be why then. Most of my wines are cheap as chips Burgundy or other French red wines that were bottled twenty minutes before I opened them.
I was thinking of getting one of those wine vibrators that are meant to improve the quality of cheap plonk, but at £200 it seemed a bit pricey for what is essentially an experiment.
Maybe both together (vibration and oxidation) might improve the flavour?
Decanting wine
Humph, with me it usually doesn’t even make it to the glass
Why would you want the port passed to you in the first place? That shit is awful.
Are you acquainted with the bishop of Norwich?
And the two wine experts were queried on how to properly hold your glass. The first said that with red wine you hold by the bottom of the bowl so that your hand warms the wind, but for white wine you hold the glass by the stem so as not to warm it. The second expert said you grab it firmly in the middle so that it doesn’t slip out of the bag.
“…with me it usually doesn’t even make it to the glass”
*raises glass to Otto, who wins this thread*
Julia
Big kiss
Dennis: Each to his own. I usually drink Late Bottled Vintage Ruby ports. Not fond of tawny or white. I have drunk a few good vintage ports, which do need decanting. I also find that with them you have to finish the bottle that evening. It definitely doesn’t taste as good on the following days.
“ The decanter would rest with the host – start with the host and be passed round so everyone gets some, and returned to the host. It was not on-request, only when the host decided and offered another glass or top up, then it did another turn of the table.”
I thought it was so the host knew everyone’s glasses were charged for the loyal toast. At least that’s what happened in every Sgts’ Mess I was a member of. If it was a large mess there’d be a number of decanters placed around the tables and the senior steward would give the RSM a nod when all glasses were charged.
After the loyal toast in Royal Signals messes we’d toast the C in C, then and now The Princess Anne and if wife’s were present we’d then toast the ladies. The, and only then, could the port be drunk freely and it would be passed round as needed.
And when ladies were present the male on her right would charge her glass.
God knows what goes on now that they have so many females serving who have civilian husbands. Traditions adapt to meet circumstances as HMQ staying in Balmoral to appoint the next PM shows.
@John Galt,
Try one of these, much cheaper:
https://giftstomorrow.co.uk/product/ckb-ltd-premium-patented-red-wine-aerator-tool/?v=79cba1185463
“ Better to do what you please and you’ll meet some interesting weirdos who also like prawn cocktail, riesling wine and think tattoos are fucking ugly.”
I’ve never understood why Riesling gets such a bad rap. Even when I was serving in Germany in the early ‘80s you could get some decent dry ones and they’ve improved immeasurably. Obviously not a patch on a good NZ Sav Blanc but a good one is better than an average Chilean SB and on a par with SA.
Red Wines on the other hand. It was until I discover the Ahr Valley in 2019 that I realised that Germany could produce a reasonable red. The reason for not knowing was that they didn’t export. I say didn’t because the industry barely exists since the floods.
Wine temperatures, good wines, bad wines.
I run a small but very well stocked bar in my gaff. It is has great popularity amongst the imbibing classes.
There’s a little trick one can do with those empty “good quality” booze bottles with the plastic restrictors in the neck. Tip a bottle of cheap supermarket in a bowl. Introduce a little water into your bottle, put it on the electric hotplate until it boils. Holding the bottle with a cloth, invert it & stick the neck of the bottle to the bottom, of the bowl. Watch it fill.
I found someone who print wine labels with anything I want on them. So we serve a variety of “house wines”, once the original labels have been soaked off.
I have people here who are most vociferous about their preference for certain brands of spirits & liqueurs. Who tell me they are experts on wine. Mostly they drink Lidl without a murmur of dissent.
And in passing: I owned a share of a company imported German wines, at one time. I can be unbelievably tedious on the finer points of Kraut plonk, if provoked. Some of the words are inches long.
I have people here who are most vociferous about their preference for certain brands of spirits & liqueurs. Who tell me they are experts on wine. Mostly they drink Lidl without a murmur of dissent.
That’s why I keep several bottles of Mogan David 2020 (aka “Mad Dog 2020”) in what passes for our wine rack. You want to be a pretentious twat about your wine, the House o’ Dennis is the wrong place to plant your palate. And for those of a certain age, a gulp of Mad Dog takes you back to the days of your youth… Smoking Swisher Sweets and drinking Mad Dog at the Drive-In while you watched R-rated movies you were “too young” to watch.
BiND,
“I’ve never understood why Riesling gets such a bad rap. Even when I was serving in Germany in the early ‘80s you could get some decent dry ones and they’ve improved immeasurably. Obviously not a patch on a good NZ Sav Blanc but a good one is better than an average Chilean SB and on a par with SA.”
It still suffers because of bad 80s Liebfraumilch, I think. I always think it’s a bargain.
“Red Wines on the other hand. It was until I discover the Ahr Valley in 2019 that I realised that Germany could produce a reasonable red. The reason for not knowing was that they didn’t export. I say didn’t because the industry barely exists since the floods.”
The Ahr produces some well-rated Pinot Noir and generally better value than Burgundy. I’ve been meaning to find some.
fish knives these days rarely have any practical use
They’re useful as small trowels for applying plaster
And let us not forget the Royal Navy’s traditional Saturday night toast “To wives and sweethearts…may they never meet!”.
Drunk sitting down, of course.
If you enjoy a good Riesling, try Maximin Grünhäuser Abtsberg, one of the best from the Mosel. Byrne & Co stock it, if you’re anywhere near Clitheroe.
Fish knives*are* still useful: I usually buy whole fish from the fish stall in my local market (my concession to “healthy eating” but I buy fish that taste nice, no dogfish or catfish or “farmed” salmon or trout) and use a fish knife to separate the flesh from the bones. Those of us who eat kippers know that the fish knife is far better than a steak knife or bread-and-butter knife for peeling off the thin bones that cover the edible bits.
@ BoM4
Ah, thanks for the explanation – Liebfraumilch may be why I never seem able to find a bottle of Mosel when I want one. My liking for Riesling goes back to the 1950s (one glass with Christmas Dinner followed by another glass at the next Christmas) so unsullied by Liebfraumilch.
@jonathan
“etiquette is about excluding people but manners is about including people”
Apocryphal story of dinner at some embassy somewhere, where some ghastly woman insisted that she ought to be much closer to the Ambassador and, having been moved, said to him, “Your Excellency, you must find these matters of precedence very troubling”, to which he expertly replies:
“Not really. I generally find that those who matter don’t mind, and those who mind don’t matter.”