Skip to content

This is indeed the question

This is crunch time. For years the British public has been led by politicians of all parties to believe it can enjoy north European levels of public services and American levels of taxation, and the truth is we can’t. A choice has to be made.

The American levels of taxation please.

Next question?

34 thoughts on “This is indeed the question”

  1. The problem is that the person experiencing the American level of tax is not the person enjoying north European levels of public service.

  2. We know the answer to this one… any move towards lower taxes will be resisted by the Swamp, The Blob, and Davos Man. Just ask Liz Truss.

  3. Martin Near The M25

    I don’t think the US is really a low tax country any more. It used to be but their politicians are as addicted to spending money as our wasters. I don’t know the details though.

    There seems to be persistent myths about how much tax people pay, especially the better off. We’re not living in any kind of neoliberal paradise when we have the highest tax burden ever.

  4. We are told that our government now raises more in tax than at any time since the Attlee government in the late 1940s. There is good reason for that. Public expectations of government are much greater today than they were in Attlee’s time. When Covid struck, the public rightly expected the government to spend whatever it took to treat the sick and preserve the social fabric.

    I actually quite like Chris Mullin – he is very much old Labour. Socially fairly Conservative but with the paragraph above he details why contrary to his belief there needs to be a freeze on public expenditure and a return to the original principles of the welfare state. If you’re unwilling to work when you are physically able
    To, you should not be entitled to a living. Housing and the associates benefit shouldn’t be paid to the most feckless. At every stage we reward pathology – so I think if you were to suggest a return to workhouses and soup kitchens it would reinstate with the second and third deciles of the income scale. Then get those people out of taxation to the greatest extent possible.

    Tax, fairly raised and wisely spent, is the subscription we pay for living in civilisation. in fairness this is better phrased than some other variants of the argument but it’s still one I like Tim, absolutely despise- we need to maintain a high base rate to ‘keep civilisation’. We have porous borders with a city the size of Newcastle coming in annually. A third of our police forces have not successfully resolved a single burglary in the current year. Our schools breed generations of Green and Labour Party supporting morons. How is expenditure on that ‘wise’ in any sense of the term. As Longrider said on his blog – show me the accounts and my goodness you’ll see some cuts. Up to 4 million non productive public sector workers could be sacked and at least 20,000 regulations be repealed without the general public even noticing.

  5. Labour must break the taboo and argue for higher tax

    >Highest tax burden since Clement Atlee
    >Rishi and Hunty are about to put corporation tax up by 30%
    >Fags cost nearly £15 a packet

    We must break the taboo of higher tax guys!

  6. The past couple of years have revealed some UK public services -health, education- as abysmal and exhorbitantly expensive with those employed therein less concerned with providing a service than consulting their own convenience. Other services -infrastructure, defence- are the underfunded Cinderella services.

    So, yes, it should be crunch time with government finally relinquishing those services that could be better provided by private contractors and where the money follows the patient or the pupil rather than being doled out willy nilly as an appropriation by the state regardless of its effectiveness.

  7. North European levels of public services? As far as healthcare is concerned, medical services are mostly provided by the private sector, and funded at least in part by private insurance or direct payment. Most of North Europe’s taxes are spent on bloated government bureaucracy, unemployment benefit because of chronic high levels of unemployment particularly the young and immigrants, and subsidising agriculture a large section of which is small-scale, economically unviable, and subsidising favoured businesses.

  8. John B
    A quick Google shows that the CAP was 31% of 2021 the EU budget, approx 56 billion Euros! Of which, France got 17%.

  9. “When Covid struck, the public rightly expected the government to spend whatever it took to treat the sick and preserve the social fabric.” What a moron. When Covid struck the government gave into panic from The Science, and hysteria from the electorate.

    It didn’t spend on treating the sick: it actually discharged infected patients from hospitals into the care homes thus killing off large numbers of frail ancients. Also, much of the NHS simply closed apart from making videos of nurses dancing in empty corridors – the very opposite of treating the sick. The bits of hospitals that continued to function used their notorious absence of skill at infection control to bump off even more citizens who had been uninfected on admission.

    As for preserving the social fabric – that’s cretinous. Lockdowns and school closures were damaging attacks on the social fabric. The fact that the teachers’ unions share responsibility with Boris just shows how many people need a good hanging.

    Mullin is a fool.

  10. OT but related to public service levels, last Thursday I renewed my photo drivers licence at a Post Office (very easy, turn up with the renewal form, they take your pic, they submit it all online for you, pay them £21, job done), in the post today was my new licence. Is this a record? The chap in the PO said 3-4 weeks turnaround time.

  11. “Is this a record? The chap in the PO said 3-4 weeks turnaround time.”

    It’s not a record if your application is straightforward and you have a photo (or one online in the system already, as I did).

    I filled in the online form on a Saturday and received my new licence the following Tuesday, ie one working day including the postage.

    It’s a problem only if you need some sort of manual intervention, I guess.

  12. Although an increase in the basic rate of tax would impose an additional cost for lower earners, they are also overwhelmingly the beneficiaries of the public services they are being asked to help fund

    I never thought I read that in the guardian. It’s a shame he couldn’t take that final step and say that a more efficient and streamlined public sector would be in the best interests of the low paid.

  13. Similary, I submitted my online tax return yesterday. Took all of about five minutes, for a moderately complicated return (two jobs, property income). The benefit is probably I’ve been doing this for 20 years now, and I dilligently do my accounts, so I have all the data already presented on a summary page of a spreadsheet with the relevant items highlighted. I dread “consultants” or, horror, politicians getting their claws in and trying to “improve” things.

  14. Interesting statement by the former Governor of the BoE, Mervyn King yesterday, on a BBC politics show:

    ‘If I were to blame anyone,’ he said, ‘I would blame the economics profession for encouraging [central banks] to print money [like] it didn’t matter.’

    Hmm. Who has been saying exactly that on these very pages?

  15. “It’s not a record if your application is straightforward and you have a photo (or one online in the system already, as I did).”

    I assume it was straightforward (no change of address or anything), but they had to take my photo in the Post Office and upload that into the system.

  16. America isn’t low tax anyway, although it depends a lot on which state and city you live in.

    Singapore, now they are low tax.

  17. “A quick Google shows that the CAP was 31% of 2021 the EU budget, approx 56 billion Euros! Of which, France got 17%.”
    Rural support is around 6% of the EU budget which is also incident on the same set of land owners for practical purposes.
    And the EU Customs Union stops the recipients of the largesse being exposed to the proper level of outside competition.
    And the regulations (e.g. no GM inputs) stop the recipients of the EU largesse from being more productive.
    So feck ’em, if you voted leave have an extra large slab of flapjack with chocolate with your coffee tomorrow or something.

  18. Theophrastus (2066)

    Steve:

    >Highest tax burden since Clement Atlee
    That is appalling.
    >Rishi and Hunty are about to put corporation tax up by 30%
    Not good, but the incidence is on employees and consumers, so it won’t deter FDI.
    >Fags cost nearly £15 a packet
    Make it £25. Smokers treat the world as their ashtray.

  19. Err, no:

    “Not good, but the incidence is on employees and consumers, so it won’t deter FDI.”
    The incidence lands on employees *because* it reduces FDI…..

  20. Tax, fairly raised and wisely spent, is the subscription we pay for living in civilisation

    It’s that wisely spent most of us are terribly sceptical of…

  21. Theophrastus (2066) @8.28:
    Smokers contribute £11 billion (drinkers £12 billion+) in tax yet cost the NHS around £2.5 billion (£3.5 billion for alkies) in healthcare, so I’m quite happy for them to use the world as their ashtray, so long as I’m not sitting next to it.

    TomJ @ 5.49, +100

  22. “last Thursday I renewed my photo drivers licence at a Post Office (very easy, turn up with the renewal form, they take your pic, they submit it all online for you, pay them £21, job done)”

    When I passed my driving test, the licence didn’t need to be replaced every five minutes. It’s yet another stealth tax…bastards!!!

  23. Drivers License

    That it gets done so quickly demonstrates it’s automated. £21 for a robot to print a bit of plastic and put it in the post? I bet this is the break-even price for the DVLA as well, which tells you all you need to know about government procurement.

  24. Can’t use GDP when thinking about Ireland. One of the few cases where GNP (or even GNI) is both very different and also the correct number to use. Sorry, just one of those things.

  25. When the Celtic Tiger took off with a vengeance, I looked at Wikipedia’s page on Ireland and did a double take at the GDP figures. It was obviously hokey and something strange was clearly going on.

    Shame the UK can’t seem to lower corporation tax to compete against these low tax jurisdictions. You would think that it would be a winning combination together with the City of London.

    It’s almost as if we are being deliberately prevented from competing with the high tax, highly regulated EU.

  26. How about we aspire to Irish tax levels instead, at 22.8% which includes lots of healthcare for many people?

    Irish healthcare provision is notoriously abysmal, and worse than that of the NHS on most metrics. So not a great example.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *