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To repeat a subject

Hey, I recycle, right? Will Porsche kill Tesla?

At one level the idea that Porsche (P911) is about to kill off Tesla (TSLA) is ridiculous.

No, the manufacturer of toys for middle-aged hairdressers is not going to ruin a mass market car manufacturer.

It could be true if we considered the other Porsche (PAH3) as well – what used to be the parent of VW (VOW3). Combined, they might just be a danger as and when they roll out the EV versions of all of their vehicles. But even there, who do we think is going to buy a Skoda in preference to a Tesla?

22 thoughts on “To repeat a subject”

  1. Surely the most likely thing to kill Tesla would be the dawning realisation that electric cars are a bit shit. Imagine trying to market a diesel car that has a two gallon fuel tank you have to refuel through a pin hole so that it takes several hours to fill up.

  2. “Who’s going to buy a Skoda when…” ?

    Exactly the sort of folks who buy one now in the competitive ICE vehicle marketplace – that’s who.

    Stupid question. Skoda has long since grabbed its segment of the market and, assuming they produce a comparably competent vehicle, there’s no reason to suppose that won’t remain.

  3. I detest electric cars, and the smugness of the rich bastards who look down their noses at us plebs with our 10-year old internal combustion engine cars, but – and it’s a big but – there are classes of people for whom the electric car is a no-brainer at the current time. If you get an expensive company car, and never make long journeys, then there are (huge) tax benefits to the Tesla.

    The problem is that those benefits are gained at the expense of those very self-same plebs (like me).

  4. Dennis, Turbo-Charged And Fully Fuelled

    40 years ago there were Porsche 944s everywhere. And you’d see a fair whack of 911s and 928s as well.

    These days? I see a 911 about three times a year (it might be the same car). And every now and then you see the re-badged VW SUV that Porsche calls the Cayman, or something.

    The only thing Porsche could kill off in the USA is Porsche… Oh wait, they’ve already done that.

    As a matter of fact, the Krauts have basically managed to fuck things up so bad here that you don’t even see yuppies in a BMW or Mercedes Benz any more. A couple of decades of delivering shit autos has managed to make Lexus the premier brand in the States. Amazing, but true.

  5. Bloke in North Dorset

    My wife bought a Skoda last year, to replace a 16 YO Skoda. She’s always had VWs and they’ve always been OK but this one’s shit. The breakers are keen as mustard, touch them at anything under about 8 MPHand it stops dead, manoeuvring it to parking places is a nightmare. It also oversteers and has a very hard ride.

    I hate driving it.

  6. I have a technical question.

    Say I owned an EV with 50kWh battery capacity.( i don’t)

    I was looking through the prices just now for recharging and the price depends on what sort of charger I use at a petrol station. The ranges appear to be from 7kWh to 150kWh charging points ( they call it “speed” which as annoying as it is for describing broadband ). The prices roughly range from 60p to 80p per kWh
    What am I actually paying for ?

    The time at the charger ( ie actual electricity used)?
    The cost of charging a 50kWh battery ( eg 80 x 50 = 4000p) ?
    The “speed” of the charger ?

  7. “Speed” of the charger would likely be max power draw, i.e. 7kW or 150kW (if they’re labelling in kwH that sounds wrong – that’s energy not power). On the reasoning that higher power requires bigger cables and an otherwise beefier charger.

    The price is likely related to time spent hooked up and delivering power. Actual power draw likely varies throughout the charging cycle to allow battery cooling. I don’t know if they would vary the price – on the reasoning that if you’re using it then someone else isn’t. Although it would likely be simple enough to do so (though I am not an engineer).

  8. Capable of charging at speeds of up to 150kWh and being rolled out on bp forecourts across the UK

    That’s what was bugging me M. The term kWh sounds wrong, worse meaningless.

  9. “and never make long journeys”: that may often be true for two-car families – the little one doesn’t go to the seaside. Those people who still drive to the office, and who can easily recharge there and at home, might find it attractive. I wonder how many such people there still are.

    Tell me, how does little Mr Khan’s exclusion zone work – can hybrids enter it without penalty? Does that make a case for driving a hybrid?

    Anyway I find the idea of storing a fluctuating electricity supply as petrol a wonderful lark. Then you’ll be able to haul your bits of stick home to heat your house. Brave New World.

  10. Depends on the price. A Skoda Enyaq iV 60, with its fashionable SUV body, starts at £38,970. A Tesla Model 3, which is a boring saloon, starts at £48,490. The only mystery is why anyone would choose the Tesla.

  11. I have a friend with a Tesla and we had lunch in a small Norfolk town recently. There was a spare charge point (not a Tesla one) in the car park so he hooked it up. The charge rate levelled off at about 11kW, which is probably typical for common ones – it’s similar to what a bigger sized electric shower would consume here. The special Tesla chargers can punt much more than that into the car, but the installation of a row of them needs a fat connection to the grid – those at Fleet Services westbound are still not connected after several years because the local distribution network can’t take it.

  12. No, the manufacturer of toys for middle-aged hairdressers is not going to ruin a mass market car manufacturer.

    I’m not sure that Porsches are for middle aged hairdressers (I have two middle aged Porsche fan chums who’d quibble) but Tesla is not nor will ever be a mass market car manufacturer.

  13. Many years ago an ex-colleague of mine dropped round to the house to show off his Tesla. To me, looked pretty, adequate space, impressive ‘iPad’ screen etc.

    But what really impressed me was when he left. He was at a standstill (in the car) on the road, and as he departed he pressed hard on the accelerator. I got a side-photo of the car about a second later: high quality Minolta/Sony DSLR, good lighting, quite fast shutter speed. The wheel spokes at the top of the wheel were blurred.

    Damned thing could accelerate, o my.

    As I’ve said repeatedly, I’d be very happy to have one instead of the IC machine; but I still want to be able to drive to Colorado and the damned thing simply do not have an acceptable range/recharge time characteristics. Could overnight in Raton, only 850 miles, but I’d want a good 100 miles spare capacity, so – a thousand mile range, please, or a 5 minute fillip. The IC does 400+ miles on a fillup, so match that and give me the same recharge time as IC and that’d be fine

    Unlike some here, I have nowt agin a good-looking, pleasantly high-performance and responsive vehicle. Quite the opposite (which is why we have a Jag XE both in Tejas (for Colorado etc) and in Normandy (for Barcelona) – a most enjoyable car for long journeys with reasonable consumption (about 35 US mpg to Colorado at an average door to door speed of around 70 including time spent in stops). Of course in France the effing peages eat you alive, after you’ve just lost major limbs buying the essence. But it’s still more convenient than train as long as there’s more than one traveling

  14. You can look at kW/h the same way as BHP (BHP can be expressed in kW/h) It’s the potential output of the charger in the same way as BHP figure for an engine is the potential output. Of course what the actual kW/h or BHP is, is what the demand is. If the car can take 150kW at some point in its charge cycle, it’s available. In the same way as if you want to floor a car in second on a hill the BHP’s available but you’re not using it cruising on the flat at 50.
    In reality, I suspect the kW/h figure is the nameplate figure. Same as a car engine’s is. Whether you’d actually get it’s another matter. (See also nameplate outputs on bird killers)
    And it’d be interesting to know what the actual charge times are for a 150kW charger & with a lower potential charger for the same battery. Something I doubt anybody will be in a hurry to tell you. It may well turn out there’s not much difference & you’re paying a premium without gaining much. That high charge rate is only possible during part of the charge cycle.

  15. Tim, Tesla’s are not a mass-market car manufacturer. They’re competing up to the entry-level Porsche level, not with Toyota sedans.

    The people who buy Tesla’s are the sort of people who can afford to drop 70k on a spare car.

  16. Surely Tesla’s problem is that everybody is making Teslas now…?

    You can buy a Porche Tesla, a Jaguar Tesla, a KIA Tesla, etc. The electric vehicle market will simply be diluted across brands as the ICE market is now.

  17. The battery powered car was rejected at the dawn of the motor industry because a large heavy battery was needed (not a fundamental problem) and a suitable network that can conveniently charge it (an absolute showstopper then, massively more so now).

    It won’t matter if a milk float can fly and travel through time. It won’t matter if the battery was the size of a matchbox, cost 10p and could hold a MWh (of course, real batteries of any conceivably usable capacity are very heavy, incredibly complex to manufacture, hugely resource hungry and what is to be done with hundreds of thousands – millions – of them when they reach the end of their useful life) . The charging infrastructure for 30+ million milk floats (which, don’t forget is the basic lie – these things are a superior and inevitable replacement to the dinosaur technology of the ICE – undefeated champion for 120 years BTW) is a surreal fantasy if based on bird mincers and solar panels (the foundational lie – “renewable” energy).

    How many times does it have to be said: there is no intention to build the power infrastructure for milk floats, or anything else (don’t forget “heat pumps” and all the other power hungry “green” fantasy toys)

    That said, it would appear that the “EV revolution” will come to a grinding halt if the bungs to the smug addicts cease and they have to pay a bit of road tax!

    I don’t know what the actual market for milk floats is intended to be, but if the intention is to reverse mass car ownership, perhaps 10% of what it is now (what it was – not sure the exact figure – back in the 50s).

    Reality is fast approaching.

  18. One of the crucial factors in determining the longevity of rechargeable batteries is a number referred to as ‘C’ the discharge (or recharge) rate. Take Ottokring‘s hypothetical 50kWh EV. If you can charge the battery from empty to full in 30 mins (using 100+kW of electrical power), that means C=2; if the car can deliver 200kW of power to the wheels, that’s C=4. Whenever C is greater than ~1, that’s eating into the battery lifetime.

    Tesla monitor these things very closely (they don’t want to be replacing batteries under warranty): there’s a limit, enforced by software, to the number of times you can use ‘ludicrous’ mode (I think it may be 6 times in the lifetime of the vehicle, but I’m not a Tesla owner); and there’s a limit to how many times you can use the superchargers before you must do a slower recharge.

  19. dearieme,

    “Nah, the other mystery is who the hell buys cars new.”

    Hush now 😉

    Where would the rest of us be if there weren’t women buying new VW Golfs and selling them after 3 years with 10000 miles on the clock? “It might start going wrong” they say, as they sell it for a huge loss, and it eventually dies after 180,000 miles.

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