Why are women so marginalised by the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame?
Courtney Love
Barely 8% of its inductees are female. The canon-making doesn’t just reek of sexist gatekeeping, but also purposeful ignorance and hostility
Not that many women are that fame thing in rock and roll maybe?
Things are different with pop music – which is not the same as rock and roll – and with country, Motown, dance music and so on. But to a large extent a useful definition of rock and roll is the distillation and encapsulation of testosterone laden sweat.
Some women do indeed achieve this and very fine it is to have that done. But it is – just given that definition being used there – going to be a rarer feat among women than men.
As to Courtney Love:
Hole was one of the most commercially successful female-fronted alternative rock bands in history, selling over 3 million records in the United States between 1991 and 2010.
There are one hit wonders who sell more of the one single than that. Macarena (4.3 million in the US), The Ballad of the Green Berets (5), Whoomp, There It Is etc, etc.
There are two qualifiers to their “most commercially successful”: “female-fronted” and “alternative”. Ether or both of which will limit their sales count compared to other bands without those attributes.
Why would Kate Bush be in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame?
And why isn’t Billy Idol in it?
Bonnie Raitt has been acclaimed as one of the finest rock guitarists of all time. Not one of the finest female rock guitarists. Disclosure: I like her guitar work but as you say Tim, not quite enough testosterone and armpit sweat.
How many people called Jones in the Rock n Roll Hall of Fame?
I’m becoming an activist on behalf of all the Jones’s! (i.e. I’m going to moan a lot and stamp my feet).
Do you know there are only.00029836%! This is outrageous!I demand reparations! (Payable to Grist Charities Ltd). I promise to pay the poor Jones Rock n Rollers who have been cruelly overlooked by these outrageous Smithites!
A while ago I saw a documentary about the Go-Gos. It was mostly about their coke habits, but in the days before something strange happened to Belinda Carlisle’s cheekbones, they were a pretty tough sounding punk band. They took a commercial decision and metamorphosed into a pop band. The original founder flounced off in disgust, but for those five or so years, they were a huge success. I saw the Bangles in 1985 and they were pretty rocky, until they hit the big time the year after by softening their approach.
Heart. Dreamboat Annie.
How many rock aficionados buy singles? I think I may have bought half a dozen around ’66 to play on my Bush portable gramophone with its stacking arm, but none since. I’m not even sure what the singles market is now. They still press vinyl? Or is it single downloads? They have B-sides? You load the file in the player backwards?
2023 nominees:-
A tribe called quest – hip hop is not rock and roll
Kate Bush – not even close to rock and roll
Sheryl Crow – see above
Missy Elliott – rap is not rock and roll
Iron Maiden – Yes
Joy Division/New Order – Yes
Cyndi Lauper – see Bush/Crow
George Michael – sorry mate. No.
Willie Nelson- c’mon man.
Rage against the machine – Yes
Soundgarden – probably yes albeit I’ve never heard of them.
The Spinners – I wish it was the 4 English folkies in white wooly sweaters from the 1960’s but realistically it’s the Motown/Detroit version. Either way definitely not rock and roll.
The white stripes – Yes.
Warren Zevon – just about.
So less than half of the 14 nominees have any pretence to rock and roll. Which would be an argument Ms Love could legitimately use.
Soundgarden – probably yes
Soundgarden DEFINITELY yes. Great band. See the album “Badmotorfinger”.
But your point is well made: some great music there, but rock & roll? Nah.
“Popular Music Hall of Fame” would be a better name for that list, though it doesn’t quite have the same ring to it, does it?
Problem with your annotated list, there John, is defining rock & roll. To the purest, it’s dance music. Meaning danceable by couples. Which knocks out White Stripes, for a start. But if you’re going to include them, why not Cyndi Laupa. Who’s thoroughly danceable & a lot closer to the original R&R?
The justification for being in the Rock ‘n Roll Hall of Fame seems to be “music enjoyed by people like us” on the basis of ‘we know who we are’.
Steve, I dont get the feeling Billy Idol is the type to ..appreciate.. the hullabaloo of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.
Besides… He’s still alive and prodding buttock.. Not a Memory of Yore that the Studios need polishing up for extended sales on new carriers to sentimental punters.
And certainly not someone who’s going to just sit there and Behave like a Good Little Musician.
Kate Bush… Not Rock ‘n Roll, but she’s had a massive influence on the scene. She’s the Grandmother of half of the current Metal scene, and a big fat stamp in several other genres.
She may not make Rock, but she’s at the core of a lot of it.
although… she, too, doesn’t strike me as the type to show up even if she does get the accollade..
Courtney’s problem is that her music is shit. That will likely keep her out of the Hall forever.
Kate Bush on the other hand is a bloody legend. Massively influential in so many areas of popular music. Heart made it in and fully deserved it – Ann Wilson is one of the greatest rock vocalists of all time IMHO. They went in the same year as my favourite band, Rush.
I’m massive metal head so I want Maiden in the hall too.
TBH,
“Courtney’s problem is that her music is shit. That will likely keep her out of the Hall forever.”
Celebrity Skin is a banging single. And Violet is OK. That’s about it though.
As far as rock women go, I’d rather put Shirley Manson of Garbage in there, or even Brix Smith (I know that Mark E Smith likes to claim that The Fall was all him, but the albums with Brix on are the best ones).
Then re-name it the popular music HoF or the contemporary music HoF. Even the music HoF.
There’s a country music HoF, a soul music HoF, a hip hop HoF and probably a fair few more. Iron Maiden don’t belong in the soul version, Kate Bush isn’t hip hop and Missy Elliott isn’t country. So why can’t rock and roll remain true to its base.
“Why would Kate Bush be in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame?”
Why would anybody be in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame? I can’t think of anything less rock & roll than a Hall of the Immortals. The right thing to do is say, “F*ck ’em. I wouldn’t be on their stupid list if they asked me. Bunch of dweebs.”
So why can’t rock and roll remain true to its base.
For the simple reason its male dominated and Guardianista types are scared that somewhere some men will be enjoying themselves. See also tap rooms, male only golf clubs, rugby etc.
At 29 she’s too young for a hall of fame, but Taylor Momsen of The Pretty Reckless has a great Rock and Roll voice.
Then re-name it the popular music HoF
You could be on dodgy ground there. If you define popular by sales, the average age of those buying it is about 14. You’re going to see Sam Smith inducted. Although whether as he or she…
@John
Does Joy Division not count as a female artist?
I suddenly feel like one of those old-time (possibly apocryphal) High Court Judges who would suddenly ask “Who are these Beatles you keep referring to?” and on receiving the reply “A popular music ensemble, m’Lord”, would say Ah, I see, you may proceed.
Henry Crun
Didn’t she used to be Jim Division ? So hard to keep up these days.
Anyway Rage Against The Machine turned out to be very much Wankers FOR the Machine didn’t they ?
@John
– So why can’t rock and roll remain true to its base.
Dunno, why does Iron Maiden have more to do with Bill Hailey and the Comets than Pat Benatar does? Or indeed Not The Nine O’clock New’s “Headbanger” rather than their “Nice Video, Shame About the Song”?
As bloke in spain said, it’s how you define “rock and roll”. The 1950s era that gave us the musical name and original style (with acknowledgements to precedents) is certainly a lot more dancey and poppy than all the rock, metal and thrash that evolved chiefly in the 1970s. I think when you and Tim think “rock and roll” it’s more specific; perhaps “rock” is a better term?
I’d certainly put the aforementioned Ann Wilson (and the band pre 80s) near the top of that category. She could belt it out live, shown here:
Heart – Barracuda
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfX-BSO-Q8M
(despite the terrible wow and flutter in the uploaded tape)
No hairy “rock” cred here, but certainly as fairly evolved from rock and roll as any other. Cindy Wilson could belt out the emotion live, even if the band was just supposed to be silly.
The B-52’s – Give Me Back My Man – 11/7/1980 – Capitol Theatre
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHLFdptpMGA
Addolff– +1 , and crazy on you is deserving of membership all on its own. But i think they are indeed in it already.
@PJF – that’s awesome. And it definitely rocks.
+me for the Ann Wilson, late 70s heart.
All these prizes are bollocks anyway. Look at the shit that’s won the Mercury and the stuff that’s missed out. Look at the guff awarded Oscars and the brilliance that is never recognised. Same for the Booker, Nobel lit prizes.
All these prizes are bollocks anyway. Look at the shit that’s won the Mercury and the stuff that’s missed out. Look at the guff awarded Oscars and the brilliance that is never recognised. Same for the Booker, Nobel lit prizes.
As I said in a comment above “What’s liked by people like us” Defined as “We know who we are”.
See also – Brexit Referendum, Brit immigration policy…
A few reasons:
1. Men can’t have babies, so historically (and partly biologically) we’re wired to find some other form of responsibility or industriousness to find meaning in our lives. Hence, spending hours on end perfecting guitar fingering and beefy piano chords more often than women.
2. Women are less likely to spend hundreds of days on the road around druggies and sleeping in dirty motel rooms in order to build their audience.
3. Women tend to be less inclined toward engineering, so innovations in sound and recording skew toward men.
4. For whatever reason, lyrical content from women tends to be focused on love songs, breakup songs or struggles of being a woman. And that’s okay, but men have delved more into additional content like war, government overreach and moving to the country to eat me a lot of peaches.
5. It is easier to find female singers than women who play instruments. Additionally, it is easier to find women who cover songs or perform those written by songwriters, than women who write and orchestrate their own. The Hall of Fame has counted some of these women as inductees, but you can only do that so many times.
There are obviously exceptions, but that’s the general trend. The Hall of Fame is also very slow to indict anyone, and many worthy men have been jilted. Ted Nugent, the reason why many kids picked up their first guitar, is not an inductee, likely because of his politics. This institution is just another country club, just like the Academy is for film. It’s part of the dying trend of award shows, and will go the way of TV variety hours within the next 15-20 years.
By the way, the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame is a glorified Hard Rock Cafe. And it’s in Cleveland. You’re not missing anything.
I suddenly feel like one of those old-time (possibly apocryphal) High Court Judges who would suddenly ask “Who are these Beatles you keep referring to?” and on receiving the reply “A popular music ensemble, m’Lord”, would say Ah, I see, you may proceed.
A lawyer once explained to me that any contemporary reference in court is liable to gain a similar intervention from the bench. This is done to make clear the context of the legal argument for future generations who might refer to it. Maybe the Beatles will still be a household name centuries hence, but I wouldn’t count on it. (I believe the actual response was “a popular beat combo”>)