Laws banning households from installing heat pumps too close to neighbouring properties threaten to disqualify millions of terraced houses from having the green devices.
Residents of towns and cities in England, Wales and Northern Ireland seeking to swap out a gas boiler could face having to apply for planning permission if a heat pump unit falls near their property boundary, experts have warned.
It’s a mighty thin disguise for a Darwinian thinning of the herd by hypothermia
So heat pumps won’t work for a vast number of UK homes, EV won’t work for a vast number of UK drivers as they have no facilities to charge them, renewables will not be able to deliver the required electricity demand from those EV’s, heat pumps or electric hot water heating and we are still going to achieve net zero.
They’re fucking insane aren’t they?
Grant Shapps was on JHB this morning. She explained we will still need oil and gas and he said “you sound as if you don’t believe in climate change Julia”. Utter cunt.
“Millions of terraced houses” seeking to have heat pumps?
Is there no limit to the delusion? I am pretty confident the actual number could be measured in dozens.
Heat pumps don’t work in cold weather, so naturally the fuck-faced clowns who run this country want you to have heat pumps.
@Addolff
They have received the Revealed Truth. Their duty is to punish the heretic and bring the non believers to the nu-church.
“you sound as if you don’t believe in climate change Julia” could almost have been said by Tomas de Torquemada to his latest supposed enemy of the revealed word of god.
My only outside space is where I store my bins. Where do these morons think (my landlord) would put *any* equipment?
Germany to ban gas boilers.
Germany to ban the refrigerant gas used in heat pumps.
(Daily Torylies, today)
Joined up government: “freeze you worthless peasants”.
Apparently the EU is objecting to the unilateral refrigerant gas ban because it’s against the single market rules, not because it’s fucking insane.
No doubt the UK governement will do the same.
Oh, and heat pumps: you lose one of your smaller rooms for the internal equipment, including both a hot water tank, and a tank for the circulating fluid.
@ Steve
Heat pumps do work in cold weather, just not as well – so the claimed advantages are largely fictitious. But the claimed advantges are mostly fictitious anyway.
And the Beeb’s cohort of salaried (at our expense) liars continue to pretend that a heat pump’s peak efficiency is the year-round invariable efficienty.
Here in Michigan (summer highs in the 90’s, winter lows in the 10’s), I know a guy who conditions his house with 3x air-source heat pumps, aka ‘mini-splits’.
His house is hot in the summer, cold in the winter, and has developed damp problems in the basement. But I knew he completely-failed to grasp the basic physics when he installed an air-source heat-pump water heater in his basement – Look, no gas pipe! I get my hot water for free!
Seems like the same level of stupid has infested HMG as well.
llater,
llamas
Stupid?
It’s a great plan to force millions of people to install brand new expensive stuff that they have to rip out again in 8 years because a key component is banned.
And in a place like the Reich where most people rent, you can deflect by saying evil capitalist bastard landlords have to pay for it so don’t worry.
It’s hardly the first go around is it? Who remembers “cash for clunkers”? Money for friends as well. This time they aren’t even using the government as intermediary. Genius!
You’d imagine the electorate might get wise to shit like this. Well, here in the Reich, it seems like they finally are.
When even the guys standing to make a packet out of this tell you its nonsense
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1797307/Heat-pump-warning-scotland-boiler
My heat pump has worked fine for the last two winters. As for noise, it’s less of a hassle than the bastard down the road who’s learning to be a drummer. The noise is a red herring anyway because the time of year when it’s running most often is exactly when the neighbours are going to have their windows shut because of the cold and the sound doesn’t penetrate.
TtC’s point about kit is true though. Most of the gear is in my utility room, and we had a huge tank in the bathroom anyway because we have solar thermal hot water as well (totally free hot water for 4-5 months of the year, sometimes even in winter on a cold clear day). If you’re stuck in a pokey modern house or a victorian terrace with a combi boiler though you are going to be utterly stuffed trying to switch to a heat pump.
john77 – yarp, by “work”, I mean “would be an effective source of heating for most households”.
We’re going to lose central heating, hot running water and bacon if we don’t do something* about the climate charlatans.
*Augusto Pinochet Helicopter Tours, Santiago, Chile
We had a friend who boasted of his heat pump, providing heat in winter and air-conditioning in summer. But
(i) He was a thermodynamicist by trade so probably installed it partly as a matter of professional interest. For the life of me I can’t remember whether it was an air-source or ground-source installation.
(ii) He lived in NZ and so an air-source heat pump would have been blessed with his frost-free garden.
Friend of mine had a ground source heat pump installed over 10 years ago, coupled with underfloor heating. Thats functioned pretty well I think, no idea about running costs though. However it was a new build, so loads of insulation and fairly easy to incorporate the underfloor heating, and she did have a massive garden to bury the pipes in. And it cost a packet then, so I daren’t think what the price would be now. She did get a grant which helped. So basically works for those who can afford to buy big detached houses with massive gardens……
So basically works for those who can afford to buy big detached houses with massive gardens……
“Climate Change” is a luxury belief, so it’s not surprising that those who can afford luxuries are those who can best follow.
.
I see everyone from Jonathan Pie to Ambrose Evans-Pritchard is terribly upset with Rishi for (pretending) to issue oil licenses. You’d think an old tungsten lightbulb might go on in his head and he’d realise his route out of electoral oblivion is to stand against the clown army of twats. But he’s one of them, so no. Ditto Boris.
Heat pumps don’t work at all when it is freezing with high humidity. The outside heat exchange coils ice up and then nothing works. During an ice storm last year, our heat pump spent all its time on the dinky back up electric heating element. Good thing we still have a fireplace.
Last year I installed (‘cos the old gas boiler went phut) an ASHP for my outdoor pool. This is an almost ideal use case, because the relatively low output temp is fine for a pool, and you need the heating in summer (pool is closed in winter), when the air temps are relatively high, so you get a decent multiplier in kW heat out for every kW of ‘leccy in.
But: it’s quite noisy, especially here in the country where it’s normally very quiet indeed (I don’t suppose it would be that noticeable in a city centre); and I’m not convinced it’s saving me a huge amount of money, given the current eye-bleeding price of ‘leccy.
The manufacturer’s installation instructions demand 0.5m clearance behind, 2.5m clearance in front and 1m either side. None of the brochure photos of ASHPs apparently mounted directly against walls seem to reflect this.
Last year I installed ( . . . ) an ASHP for my outdoor pool.
Superb, Mr Miller. Can you also install a couple to run your orchid house and the garaging for your fifteen classic cars. Send pics to sustainable planet dot com.
We stayed in a UK holiday home last year with a heat pump. The outside gubbins was 2-3m from the house and it made sufficient racket to disturb the sleep of those in the bedroom nearest to it. I imagine a row of London Georgian / Victorian houses each converted to flats with heat pumps would make a spectacular racket.
Re: heat pumps for outdoor pools. I was talking to a captain of industry last year who had a lot to say about what ‘we’ needed to do to fight climate change. I asked him what personal measures he was taking. He proudly told me he’s stopped eating red meat and was installing a heat pump at his second home.
@PJF: are you implying that Mr Miller doesn’t have an orangery? Or pineapple beds? Fie!
You know, there really isn’t any mystery as to why the British are poorer than the poorest Septics.
Heat pumps don’t work at all when it is freezing with high humidity.
To be boringly accurate, you cannot get both together. It’ll be snowing. Below freezing humidity’s zero.
Sure, heat pumps will work in arctic conditions on temperatures well below zero where humidity’s absent. All you need’s the outside end of the heat exchanger at a lower temperature than ambient. Worst case is approaching zero with the air at 100% humidity. Which describes many UK winter days. The ones where the road’s wet from the night remain wet all day & washing won’t dry on the line. How many days is that in a UK winter?
Incidentally, I can see how an air-sourced heat pump might work if you use air as the working fluid from the physics. If you’re familiar with using high pressure air compressors you’ll understand it. Any volume of air contains so many calories ( or whatever unit) of heat. Reduce the volume, you still have the same calories but concentrated. The temperature rises. A lot with high pressures. Scavenge the heat off through a heat exchanger & you will get water condensing out in the pressure vessel. Why the drain off tap on the bottom of compressor cylinders. But you can use a little of the pressure to just blow it out, since as water it’s low volume. There’s a big drop in temperature on the release to the ambient air side. But again, mechanical force will clear any icing.
Not practical, energy inefficient, damned noisy if my compressor’s anything to go by?
“Last year I installed (‘cos the old gas boiler went phut) an ASHP for my outdoor pool.”
I love the ‘outdoor pool’ bit, because it subtly implies that there is an indoor pool as well………
I see Boris has applied for planning permission for an 11*4m outdoor pool in his 6 acre South Oxon garden. The depth is 2 metres. An objection has come as it needs a newt assessment and licence. And if any archaeological objects are excavated work has to stop.
Do ground source pumps require digging to that depth? Waiting for the local archaeology society to have their way with your garden for a few months would raise costs for a lot of listed building owners.
@ Jim
Chris Miller is a retired Actuary so uses precise and carefully informartive language: it does not imply that there is an indoor pool. He is also sensible – there is no need for two swimming pools for a retired couple.
“Chris Miller is a retired Actuary so uses precise and carefully informartive language: it does not imply that there is an indoor pool. He is also sensible – there is no need for two swimming pools for a retired couple”
Wooosh!!!
“Do ground source pumps require digging to that depth?”
It seems so – a bit of googling suggests you need at least 600m2 of land for the pipe loops, to a depth of 1-2m. So not insignificant earthworks, especially around listed buildings.
Thank you Jim, so minimum seems to be 3 spade depths.
Run this forward say 30 years, you’ve installed your GSHP this year and after many years of bills equal to what gas costs you downsize and your house is now for sale, are there any risks that the buyer needs to know about – is that sub-soil infrastructure still sound or does it need replacing every 30-60 years, if you want to dig a hole in your lawn and plant a monkey puzzle or ornamental cherry tree are there any hazards to avoid.
The slimmer high depth borehole systems seem a good concept, but those that cover 1/7th of an acre seem sooo problematic if you’re lucky to have that but not much more than that.
@ Jim
If you and your wife want a swimming pool each, you are welcome to do so but most actuaries do a cost-benefit analysis and choose to share one with their wives.
[The lady actuaries I know don’t need to do cost-benefit analyses]
What amuses me most about heat pumps being regarded as a silver bullet to dodge climate change is that, like solar energy and wind power, in order to be of strategic value they need the right weather conditions. Ironically the climate “scientists” and the media are constantly telling us that the weather is going to become less stable and predictable, so these strategies that rely on the long term weather being “right” are clearly being built on the shakiest of foundations.
What happens when you get outside what are the fairly reasonable cold lows in the U.K. I’ve seen them being pushed in northern parts of Canada where it’s not getting above -10 for months at a time and the the depth of snow on the ground is measured in feet so you couldn’t put one at ground level. There’s a reason no one sensible has ground level doors in some parts of the world
A lot depends on the depth of the water table.
Crude rule of thumb is solid/air interface is 5 watt per degree C (difference) and this can be increased to 10 with a reasonably low turbulent airlow, Solid/water interface is 300 watt degree C once again increasing with turbulent flow.
2 metre down is ~ 15C temperature for most of the world so if the “outside” heat exchanger is below the water table things work OK. Above the water table not so much.
Should have said those heatflows are per sq m of heat exchanger
In 10 or 20 years, if it is shown that GSHPs cause subsidence, or that removing heat from the ground damages the habitat for the lesser-spotted three toed earthworm and therefore have to be banned and ripped out at great expense, I’ll be laughing like a drain!
So… has anyone estimated the number of houses that are unsuitable for a heat pump in the UK?
I would have thought that this would have been a necessary input to the policy and planning process. Because if a substantial number of houses are unsuitable they will still need heating of some kind… and extra electric fires or storage heaters will need greater electricity supply.
Joined up thinking by the Powers That Be? Nah, too much like hard work. Far easier to ‘install’ heat pumps by declaration alone.
DiscoveredJoys
I still remember the splendid example of joined up thinking in South Australia when TPTB blew up the coal fired Port Augusta power station when introducing green electricity.
They knew perfectly well that it’d be restarted again once the grid began to fail, so they got rid of it. Fortunately good old diesel backup could be installed when the power supply began to falter.
At the risk of starting an inverse 4 yorkshiremen sketch…
When I brought my outside pool inside (by building on top of it), I was offered the choice of an air-sourced heat pump at £10k, with similar sum for major rework to house electrics, or £700 for a gas boiler & heat exchanger, fitted.
As the pool shop man said: £20k pays for a lot of gas.
And that gas is far cheaper than leccy, which even in this ‘perfect’ heat pump case (use only in summer, 35 degrees output perfectly usable) means that the £20k would have had a NEGATIVE saving on running costs.
Heat pumps: Ideas so good they must be forced on people at gunpoint.
@Tim
Is your pool Olympic size? £10k is over double the price I paid (fitted), and as it only draws a max of 3kW (slightly more on startup), no changes to wiring were required. I assume an indoor pool (which, to reassure Jim, I don’t have) requires less heating than an outdoor one.
Not that large, Chris!
But the boiler is 70,000 BTU which I think is around 20kW. Allowing for a 3:1 gain with an ASHP (in summer), that’s be 7kW electrical load, i.e. a new cooker circuit. That meant a new feed, meter and fusebox.
It was a big b*st*rd too: the boiler I could pick up and carry through to where it was needed, the ASHP was about a metre square, and could not be tipped up, so would not go through any doorway: window removal job.It also weighed more than a few blokes could shift: I saw one in the shop. No idea on the noise level, I’d gone off it by then.
On the upside, the gas heating is strong enough to use all year, even in the snow and mizzle. Didn’t heat this winter though, what with the gas price soaring!
Note I was re-purposing an existing outside concrete pool after reaching my dead cat limit: a newer build with insulation would no doubt need less power.
A member of my family installed a ASHP in their house. Raved about it before installation. Not a dicky bird about it afterwards. When they moved house they didn’t install a ASHP in the new house. Says everything.
@ Bloke in the Fourth Reich
While a key component (the working fluid) may be banned, that doesn’t necessarily mean having to rip-n-replace. There are many compounds used for refrigerant, quite a few of which have been banned over the years – e.g. some were banned for their effects on the ozone layer. But there are others that can often replace them. Going entirely from memory, R12 and R22 were banned as ozone depleting, but could be replaced by propane (R600) or a 50:50 mix of propane and butane respectively. That keeps systems running, but then roll forward a bit and both propane and butane are found guilty as global warming gasses …
The biggest problem is likely to be that at 10 years old, the manufacturers (if they still exist) would much rather sell you a new unit than sell you an upgrade (possibly only control software) to allow your current unit to work with a new refrigerant.