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Doesn’t this just kill the Scottish housing market?

Scots are to be forced to rip out their gas boilers and replace them with heat pumps within as little as two years of buying a home under “hugely expensive” plans unveiled by Humza Yousaf’s government.

41 thoughts on “Doesn’t this just kill the Scottish housing market?”

  1. Well it’s an interesting socio economic experiment . One lives in hope that will be reviewed before the UK deadlines hit for stopping boiler installations comes into force.

  2. Patrick Harvie, a Scottish Green minister, published a consultation on a new Heating in Buildings Bill aimed at drastically cutting greenhouse gases from homes and business premises.

    The blueprint said people buying property should be forced to comply with a “prohibition on polluting heating” so that Scotland could reach its “interim targets” for reducing emissions by 2030.

    Seems like Scots need to choose between heating and Harvie.

    Just Stop Harvie.

  3. Chris – Interesting? Try courageous:

    The Scottish Government has previously admitted that the average cost of installing a heat pump is around £10,000. This is around four times the £2,500 cost of replacing a fossil fuel boiler.

    The Scottish Government is bankrupt and the general public doesn’t have £10K for heat pumps, or enough money to pay their extortionate running costs. (Unlike an oil or gas boiler, heat pumps are very energy inefficient).

    Another grain of sand, eh?

    Heat pumps are something I’d mandate if I wanted the proles to burn my house down to keep warm.

  4. Given the vast number of tenement flats in Scottish cities (I’m struggling to imagine where the folk who bought my old place would put a heat pump), I’d say yes, it pretty much does.

    “Patrick Harvie, a Scottish Green minister,”

    Who, let me remind you, came fourth in the Glasgow regional list with fewer votes than the Tories. 36,000 people in a constituency of 700,000 voted for this madman.

  5. Come to think of it, if you take into account that the idiotic system they use for these regional seats awards multiple seats to some parties, he actually came seventh

  6. Bloke in North Dorset

    Excellent, I love the way Jocks keep volunteering to be lab rats for green and other socialist policies.

    Hopefully the experiment will be seen to be the failure all sane people predict before the idiots down here try to implement it. And if a few more political careers get destroyed in the same way Sturgeon’s was so much

  7. The Other Bloke in Italy

    One of the villagers here, an architect, installed a heat pump in the back garden of his villa some years ago.

    He endures some chafing from the neighbours over the rumbling racket the thing makes.

    A few days back, I was in a spot which overlooks the chap’s house as the light was falling and the temperature was falling harder.

    Woodsmoke burst generously from the villa’s chimney…

  8. Nothing will stop this madness. There is no incentive for a politician to go against his party policy, his department, all the right people etc etc. We are truly ruled by like-minded idiots. Even the long-hoped-for-and- wholly-justified total destruction of the Tory party will not result in a change of direction; the people in charge will never allow it.

    These are the people who want replace gas, as well as petrol and diesel, with electricity, without planning any increase in generating capacity and (just as important) upgrading the delivery network. The country is on it’s arse, but they will still ignore £2 trillion of gas under the Red Wall in order to pay more to buy it from abroad…..

    They will kill our lives to save the planet, even if the amount of cognitive dissonance required to siumltaneously believe all aspects of this garbage can be seen from space.

  9. I don’t see the point of rioting against Our New Masters.

    Death Squads might work, I suppose, but none of us would have the balls.

  10. BiP,

    Should I be diagnosed with a terminal illness, I’m determined that I should take one of the bastards with me, but which one, there are so many deserving of involuntary euthanasia? I’m drawn towards Klaus Schwab, but hopefully nature will do for that evil scumbag before I fall ill.

  11. People voted these idiots in, so there are consequences for that. However, we’re seeing signs around the world that one by one these idiots are being voted out, probably to be replaced by a new batch who’ll annoy you in some other way.

  12. “People voted these idiots in”

    See my comment. 5% of the people who could have voted for the lunatic Harvey actually did so. That’s the equivalent of less than 3,000 in the average Westminster constituency. He’d barely have kept his deposit.

    And Trump says the American system’s rigged…

  13. Retrofitting heat pumps is total lunacy. There might (conceivably) be a case for requiring them for new properties, which can be designed to work within their limitations.

  14. @Chris Miller – it would never end with letting these bastards specify garbage ideas for new houses. If these things were worth having, people would pay for them. Ah, but the proles don’t know what’s best for them, so we need to legislate in their best interests…..what’s that? There’s a vacancy on the board of a heat pump manufacturer? Don’t mind if I do…..

  15. Won’t someone think of the vegetables! They need 1,000 ppm CO2 to really thrive.
    What do we want? More carbon! When do we want it? Now!

  16. @Steve
    Unlike an oil or gas boiler, heat pumps are very energy inefficient

    No they are very energy efficient as long as they are only working over a small temperature difference. For the same heat output it only takes perhaps a third of the energy input that a gas boiler does. The problem is that electricity costs about three times as much as gas so energy costs from running a heat pump works out about the same as a gas boiler. The next problem is that if you try to increase the temperature difference the efficiency falls, and if you go far enough it ends up with no energy gain. The consequences of this are that radiators need to run at a lower temperature, so need to be bigger to give off enough heat to warm the house. This really becomes an issue when it’s really cold out. If you don’t want cold radiators you need a big temperature difference which means low efficiency equivalent to direct electrical heating. This is fine for Scandinavia with lots of cheap hydroelectric power, but a disaster for the UK where electricity is expensive and even doubling the grids capacity would only provide the electricity needed for those not too chilly days when the heat pumps are efficient.

  17. Bloke in the Fourth Reich

    It’s quite a let down to realise that no one, most certainly not our host, has noticed this is merely a carbon copy of policy already on the brink of enforcement in the Reich.

    Where the consequences of, at best, uncertain political risk on the housing market are already making themselves felt.

  18. DocBud
    November 29, 2023 at 3:27 pm

    “Should I be diagnosed with a terminal illness, I’m determined that I should take one of the bastards with me . . .”

    One!? Set your sights higher. If we can’t each take down ten, I’d be embarrassed. We’re the competent ones, I thought.

  19. As with all things, you replace stuff when it needs replacing, you do not rip out perfectly functioning equipment that does not need replacing. You put new windows in when you need to put new windows in and that is the point where you chose what to put in. You put a new roof on when you need to put a new roof on and that is the point where you chose what to put in. You put a new boiler in when you need to put a new boiler in, and that is when you chose what to put in.

    Am I going to throw away these shoes just because there’s some new ones in the shop? No, I ‘m going to use these shoes until there no more use in them, *THEN* buy some new shoes.

  20. Am I going to throw away these shoes just because there’s some new ones in the shop? No, I ‘m going to use these shoes until there no more use in them, *THEN* buy some new shoes.

    Well, approximately 50% of people think like that.

  21. They do the stupid things so we can learn from their mistakes and not do the stupid things.
    Of course many previous lessons already exist and are being ignored, as is basic common sense. So don’t hold your breath that yet another lesson in stupidity will be learned from.

  22. Bi4R: policy already on the brink of enforcement in the Reich

    Jawohl, but it’s the same brink over which that nice Herr Habeck is tearing the Greens apart and which will topple the coalition. Auf Wiedersehen, er, Pet.

  23. Humza really is thicker than shit. Are his parents also first cousins?

    Mr Yousaf spoke in detail for the first time yesterday about the impact of Mr Sunak’s announcements, after attending New York Climate Week events last week.

    Asked if a ban on gas boilers in new-build homes will go ahead next year and if it will still be extended to oil boilers from 2025 in off-grid properties, Mr Yousaf said: ‘Our plans remain unchanged.

    ‘I was in New York in just the last week with other world leaders, where Scotland had been invited to a UN Climate Summit of this nature by the UN Secretary General because we show climate action.

    ‘And the whole discussion during that week was about how the world needs to do more, not less, in the face of a climate catastrophe.

    ‘So Scotland isn’t looking to row back on any of its measures. Now what we have to look at is the detail of the Prime Minister’s statement and understand how that might impact and affect any of our climate ambitions here.’

    Everything in that statement is delusionally retarded, from the unpopular Pakistani having just returned (business class) from New York to discuss a “climate catastrophe”; identifying as a “world leader”; speaking in the Royal tense as “Scotland”, to the the final near-admission he hadn’t even read his unpopular Indian counterpart’s proposals or understood how they affect Scotland.

    Anyway, what an amazing coincidence that the Irish, Scottish and UK governments should be taken over by Asians at the same time. At this same, critical time.

  24. It’s very clear that these people are working to orders and to an agenda.

    What is unclear is how and when they will be stopped, but I do think they’ll be stopped.

    Though obviously injecting everyone with novel pathogens that knock otherwise fit people over in their sleep has moved the odds slightly in their favour.

    Anyway! What does Ritchie think about inheritance tax?

  25. Further to AndyF’s comment above, another issue with heatpumps in the UK climate is defrosting.
    Anyone who has run a dehumidifier in an outbuilding will be familiar with this.

    It’s less of a problem in Nordic countries, because they tend to very cold, crisp and dry weather, whereas much of the UK winter is chill and damp. Humidity is the killer.
    With external air temperature below 10 degrees or so, the humidity condenses on the cold heat-exchanger (outside the house) and freezes. The condensation and/or ice obstructs the flow of air, and hence the heat input to the cold exchanger from the air, creating a positive feedback. Very quickly, the whole heat exchanger is a block of ice.

    The unit will detect this, and enter ‘defrost’ mode, directing the flow of hot compressed gas into the external heat exchanger, instead of the internal one warming your house. Thus all your expensive electricity is now going to melt a block of ice in your garden. The melted ice drains away, eventually, but the defrost must continue until the residual water coating the heat exchanger has all evaporated: otherwise it will flash back to ice the moment the cycle resumes.

    In adverse conditions, chill and damp, the heat pump will spend a significant proportion of its time doing this. Any power gain from the heat pump action is thus long since wasted.
    But we never have chill & damp in Scotland!

  26. A thought about heat pumps. If the outside air temperature is, say, zero degrees and a building is heated via an air-source h/p to, say, +18 degrees then, effectively, a similar volume (rather more due to heat capacities) of outside air must be cooled to -18 degrees. For isolated buildings the cooled outside air rapidly disperses. But if all the buildings in a large city are heated by h/p to +18 degrees then a similarly large volume of air has to be cooled to -18 degrees.

    The result might be a large volume of very cold air trapped under a temperature inversion. Large amounts of water vapour would condense and corresponding snow will fall. The effect on the efficiency of the h/ps of very low external operating temperatures and coverings of ice and snow will not be beneficial.

    Of course heat will flow out of the buildings (and be produced by the operation of the h/ps) and also inwards from outside the city so the effects may not be dramatic. But it would be interesting to know whether the local meteorological effects of large scale h/p use within cities has been considered.

  27. @Chaim

    Look at it as energy. There is a certain amount of heat energy in (building + surroundings). In order to keep building at a constant temperature, heat gain in the building = heat loss from the building. Now, even a perfectly-working heat pump requires some energy input to run, so the nett amount of energy in (building + surroundings) is increasing, albeit at a lower rate than if using a direct heat source. Of course heat from surroundings is liable to move to further away by conduction, convection or plain wind, but heat will only flow down a temperature gradient without outside assistance.

    So, outside air in cities would be cooler with heat pumps than with gas boilers, but still warmer than that in the surrounding countryside.

  28. T the C

    Seconded. I have an (inherited) ASHP in a holiday let I bought 18 months ago. (The vendor was an eco-freak.) At 6°c or below externally, the ASHP will freeze up – unless the room thermostat is set at 19°c at least. With windchill, freezing-up can occur at up to 10°c externally, as you say.

    The ASHP is costly to run and service compared to GFCH. However, the feed-in tariff for the (inherited) solar panels largely offsets the additional cost. It is also rather noisy, which occasions some complaints from nearby neighbours in the summer when they have their windows open.

    On the plus side, the ASHP heats water very swiftly. And a neighbouring farmer says that he has no regrets about switching from oil-fired CH to an ASHP (with a solar array), given the costs of oil theft and of dealing with a leaking tank.

  29. @Matt

    “So, outside air in cities would be cooler with heat pumps than with gas boilers, but still warmer than that in the surrounding countryside.”

    Not quite. What you say is obviously correct on average – the total energy within the city will be greater than that within a similar volume of the surrounding countryside. However, under stable conditions the city will comprise the volume of the buildings, at +18 degrees, surrounded by a similar volume at -16 (say, to account for the excess heat generated by h/ps). Temperature inversions of this kind can be very stable against disruption. In contrast, air conditioning tends to heat city air which then rises in the usual way, causing mixing.

  30. @Matt

    To be a bit clearer: I don’t mean such weather conditions would be long-term stable. Suppose there were a sudden cold snap, accompanied by one of those windless spells we’re having at the moment (“blocking high”?) so that on getting home on a cold winter evening everyone turns on their heat pumps. The temperature outside all houses, flats etc will drop by 10 to 20 degrees. Due to the temperature inversion, convection doesn’t operate. Due to the windless conditions, there’s little mixing with air outside the city. So the outside temperature stays low.

    Within a few hours, there’ll be a large amount of condensation accompanied by snow and ice. H/p efficiency will drop and there may be widespread h/p failures. On a very cold night, such a failure – without backup – would likely lead to many deaths.

    Of course, the problem is ultimately self-correcting as, should lots of h/ps fail, the outside temperature will rise again as the interiors of the buildings get colder…

  31. Chaim: your’re ok looking that way as a first approximation. but you’re mixing up “temperature” and “heat” which are different, but related things. With a heat pump you are moving heat, the temperature change is a result in the resultant difference in the amount of heat. You don’t need to drop the temperature 10 on one side to get a rise in temperature of 10 on the other side, you need to move an amount of heat from one side to get an amount of heat on the other side that results in the temperature rise.

    To a first approximation, “heat” is the amount of energy in a given volume and temperature is the amount of heat per volume. There’s way much more volume “out there” than there is inside your home, so you can suck in plenty of heat from outside and concentrate it into inside with minimal effect on the outside temperature as the outside heat is spread over a greater volume.

  32. @jgh

    What you say is correct but I was suggesting that, under certain conditions, the external environment may not be large enough to supply the necessary heat without its own temperature falling.

    As you say, usually the outside volume from which heat is removed is much greater than the volume to which it’s supplied. But that may not always be the case. Due to particular weather conditions (blocking high in winter) preventing mixing into the much larger space, the effective space from which energy is taken to heat buildings may be of the same order as the volume of the buildings. In that case, the temperature of the external environment may fall significantly, causing a temperature inversion which will further reduce mixing and the effective external volume.

    I’m not suggesting this will be common but if something close to all the accommodation in London is heated by heat pumps and roughly simultaneously turns on those h/ps, increasing their internal temperatures by 10 or more degrees in a short period, under weather conditions which prevent or at least slow down mixing, the outside temperature may fall significantly, with potentially interesting effects.

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