On the one hand, too many young people are out of work. On the other, the Western world is gradually realising its armed forces are inadequate in the face of threats from Russia and other aggressive dictatorships.
In a dire moment, a dire solution comes to mind: conscription.
The idea has some appeal. Drill sergeants have long experience at giving work to idle hands.
The Army’s had three periods of conscription in which to build up the knowledge of how to do it.
1916-18, 1939-45 and 1948 (?) 1960(?)
If the first two there was an actual and bloody war on and the requirement was for infantry with a couple of months training. That can be done with compulsion and, it’s fair to say, the general agreement that the job was worth doing of those being conscripted.
In the third episode, peacetime, the Navy took no conscripts, the RAF few, the Army took near all. And, if we’re honest about it, it was a disaster. Past the early 50s no one actually did anything after basic. Or near nothing at least.
All the other 400 years of the Army’s existence it has been training up people who wanted to be there. This is inherently different from trying to gain a decent response out of the sullen who have been conscripted.
Conscription simply won’t give us armed forces worth having – as with the Navy not taking any last time around. But rather more than that, unless the Army starts shooting people for telling Sergeant Majors to fuck off I don’t see it working at all. There really would have to be serious and significant punishment of a large number of people to get today’s youth buckling down. And I really don;t think modern society would be willing to put up with the bill for that – the bill I insist would actually be necessary.
BTW, the people most against conscription are likely the officers.
Gen Z find the idea of working 9-5 in a warm office as detrimental to their mental health. Good luck getting them to war.
There was also all the time period where people were pressing ganged into the navy…
Oh and during the peninsula wars convicts were often given the choice of prison or going off to fight Napoleon.
Unsurprisingly, I’ve been thinking about conscription a fair bit.
I don’t want to go and fight this rich people’s war. If I get conscripted I would need to be brought in as at least a Major in order for my income not to drop too much and thus be able to afford the mortgage, car payments, etc. for some reason I don’t think the army is going to do that…
Does anyone here with actual military knowledge have any idea what you would have to do or any conditions you could have in order to get kicked out of the army once conscripted? Like if I suddenly develop a case of raging alcoholism? Or a way of avoiding being conscripted in the first place… Would they still be refusing entry to racists?
Or am I just going to have to leg it to somewhere else before they stop us all leaving?
The traditional manner of being fired as an army officer is to bounce a cheque on a fellow officer. That’s the sort of breach of trust which just gets you kicked out (happened to an acquaintance). Of course, in really harsh times (1917, say) they just then take you straight back in as a squaddie. Force you straight back in that is.
Another was to be gay but that won’t work these days. Or, in National Service, state that you were planning to stand in an upcoming election. Had to be for a party election and sinec local councils weren’t back then that didn’t count. Had to be parliamentary. Army simply insisted that party politics and military life were incompeatible. This is how Michael Heseltine and Julian Critchely got out. Heseltiny often now much mocked in military circles for wearing his Guards tie more days of the month than he actually spent in the Guards – 7 days I think it was. Which is wrong, he served considerably more than that but still:
Sorry Chernyy, you’ll just have to put up with the bumming.
Were you ever at public school ? It’s just like that.
How exactly is conscription going to work then? John gets called up because he’s a UK citizen and is sent off to die in some foreign hellhole, while Abdul straight off the boat from Somalia gets to live in a hotel for free safe and sound back home because he’s not a UK citizen?
Are the politicians insane? Do they think the UK public is going to wear their sons (and probably daughters) being sent off to die while millions of foreigners get to sit it all out on the sidelines?
I think we discussed this before.
Conscript the illegals, give them all old SA80 rifles.
Send them to Shitholistan.
They desert and join the enemy.
When they attack Our Brave Lads, they all shoot themselves in the face with the faulty rifles.
Trebles all round.
In the 21st Century, this will have to be extremely carefully managed to ensure certain groups are not offended. Exactly fair proportions of every sex, race, identity will have to be recruited, ensuring the groups do not see each other without prior consent. The gayers may have to be given a special pep talk (in strictest confidence) to instill in them a desire to kill any and all especially cute males (or persons identifying as such).
I think it’s all a bit complicated so only a Graun hack would have the time or inclination to manage it. While working from home sipping a creme de menthe frappe, carrying out their task via Zoom…
I read somewhere that the reason conscription was brought back in 1948 was as a replacement for the Indian Army troops, which had been the main source of manpower for defending the Empire and were now unavailable following the independence of India and Pakistan.
When (most of) the remaining colonies also became independent in the 50s and 60s conscription was no longer needed.
Can’t we just pay soldiers the market rate? And yes, that rate goes up a lot in times of war. Seems only fair.
Old post:
A professional army is a volunteer army, a conscript army is a slave army. But Public Service is a well honored path to citizenship. Military Service is a valuable form of Public Service. The Roman Army offered citizenship through service, the British Army also offered citizenship through service. All those wishing entry into the country should be required to perform Public Service in order to earn their residency and progress to the honor of citizenship, and in a shortage of military personnel, Military Service is the most valuable public service new immigrants can perform.
Two immediate problems: where are you going to put all these conscript recruits? Barracked that haven’t been shut down and sold off are still needed for the professional side of the Army to be maintained.
More importantly where are all the Sgt Majors coming from? The existing ones still have a job and it takes about 15 years and lots of selection procedures to reach that rank.
Not suggesting that conscription is a good idea, but would it be possible to reactivate the Sergeants Major that retired in, say, the last 10 years? If they’re only going to be drilling conscripts, do they have to be in battle-ready fitness?
Why not restrict the ballot to those who served in the forces?
Do a spell in uniform, get the franchise.
Sounds fair. You only get to vote if you care enough about the country to defend it.
jgh;
Take a look at the French military.
“The issue could no longer be ignored in the 1990s, as the end of mandatory military service was announced in 1996, and as the military began huge recruitment efforts in working-class areas. Children of Muslim immigrants from former French colonies became overrepresented, and now Muslims are believed to account for 15 to 20 percent of troops, or two to three times the Muslim share of the total French population.”
NYT – https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/26/world/europe/in-frances-military-muslims-find-a-tolerance-that-is-elusive-elsewhere.html
the Western world is gradually realising its armed forces are inadequate in the face of threats from Russia and other aggressive dictatorships.
I don’t doubt that Bad Vlad and Winnie the Flu are wrong’uns, and they certainly mean us harm. However, Vlad is somewhat bogged down in Ukraine, so unlikely to be landing forces on the Norfolk beaches. Meanwhile, Chairman Pooh’s military is so corrupt he can’t be sure any of it will work.
On the other hand, a clear and present danger to me and mine is the British Establishment and its uniparty, which has landed us with mass immigration of violent hateful peasants from 3rd world toilets and net zero plans which are going to make British life in the 2030s remarkably like it was in the 1930s (apart from the lack of national pride and cohesion). Along with high taxes, crumbling infrastructure, a stagnant economy and criminalised wrongthink.
The next war on British soil is far more likely to be a civil one than a patriotic defence against the Russkis or Chicoms. After all, if either of them wish to see Britain defeated and ruined, all they need to do is leave us to it for another decade or so.
You’ve read Starship Troopers, have you?
There are countries that have conscription where it works. But those countries are generally where the task of the armed forces is defence of the motherland. The UK armed forces would tasked with defending someone else’s motherland. And half the time, against nationals of the same country. Who wants to lay down their life for geopolitics? Basically, people who enjoy playing soldiers. And one could opine, anyone who wants to be a soldier, shouldn’t be. The world would be a safer place.
I have not been to theUK for a few years, so am at a loss as to why there is a fear of Russia or China wishing to invade. What could they possibly want ? Buckingham Palace? Stonehenge? Take home as loot thatched cottages from the Cotswolds? China now makes a third of the world’cars, half the world’s ships……they like you as a market for their manufactured goods, and maybe a tourist destination.
BiW – that’s what happened to my grand dad in WW2. Got out as a Sergeant in ’38 after fifteen years, spent eight months on the railway then got called back up in August 39 and didn’t get out again until 1948. Spent the entire war training up conscripts. Got to be a Colour Sergeant Major though but only Wartime – left again as a substantive Sergeant.
I’m with Marius, the government is far more an enemy to me than Messrs Xi and Putin, who don’t know I exist. The bloody government DOES know I exist and where to find me and has the means to make life unpleasant for me. And it does knowingly import people who make life worse for me and mine and who are my ideological and cultural enemies.
OTOH, although the Army doesn’t want conscripts it does know how to manage them. The youth of today would mostly conform to discipline because the whole basic training/drill regime is designed and evolved to do just that. People forget that the forces are primarily training outfits. Built to train unsuitable people to do difficult work in the shortest time possible. They could learn nothing from our higher educational system which has selected students, takes ages, costs a lot and does a crap job.
I’ve read something which I’m sure I misunderstood. Which that all promotions stopped during wartime. Appointed ranks (whatever, Wartime, local etc) changed, but substantive didn’t. Gerald Corrigan I think – but I also think I misunderstood. Many, perhaps, but not all perhaps.
““face of threats from Russia”
What threat from Russia? Russia was a conventional threat during the cold war because it was more than Russia it was the USSR which consisted of Russia, Ukraine and 13 other states. We also need to include the Warsaw Pact countries Poland, Romania, Hungary, East Germany, Czechoslovakia, and Bulgaria. It was a massive military might with a standing army of about about 1.1 million at a time when NATO had 691,000.
Now Russia is bogged down in a war with the number two USSR state. You could even think of it as a civil war within the old USSR. Any thoughts of the Russian army crushing Ukraine then sweeping through Poland are no more than old generals wet dreams. Russia is still a nuclear threat but no longer a conventional one.
Breveting? At least by some other name, as the last time I read up on it I got the impression it was last used in WWI.
Tim, that promotion thing is mostly true. My dad was a sergeant in 39, swiftly became a major and stayed one until retiring in 58, still a wartime emergency commission. Which I think made a difference to the pension.
Jim,
“There are countries that have conscription where it works. But those countries are generally where the “I have not been to theUK for a few years, so am at a loss as to why there is a fear of Russia or China wishing to invade. What could they possibly want ? Buckingham Palace? Stonehenge? Take home as loot thatched cottages from the Cotswolds? China now makes a third of the world’cars, half the world’s ships……they like you as a market for their manufactured goods, and maybe a tourist destination.”
Well, nothing. War was about good agricultural land, back when food was a big expense. You know, Romans coming to Britain, Nazis invading the East. Spend a bit of money on tanks and troops, but you get a good pay off if you win. But along came inorganic fertilisers, chemical pesticides and combine harvesters, and yields go up and land collapses in price. Now, the numbers don’t add up. Not worth nicking the land. And how much do you really care about doing some killing, when you’ve got a full belly?
I suspect this is true with the Chinese and Taiwan now. If they hadn’t invaded back when they were rice growing peasants in the 1940s, why would they do it now, when so many of them are making iPhones and EVs?
Tim
Regular promotions did still go ahead, so it was possible to rise through the rungs, but they were based on seniority and so took their own time. The normal functioning of the services in that respect did not cease. Major General Ironsides in 1919 initially went on the reserve list as a Colonel, for instance, but was later bumped back up on the basis of his excellent record. Even in peacetime this happened a lot. A relative was promoted to colonel for diplomatic service but retired as a Lt Col.
Now we’re all-in on equality, I look forward to the all-female conscript regiments. The 1st Sarf London Chavette Brigade, chiefly armed with stilettos, Red Bull and WCKD… we could probably get our bits of France back using them, as long as they were promised spoils from the local hypermarché
So if we are to be trusted with firearms in the Army, we can be trusted with firearms in civvy street? Right?
And what about the LBGQ+ Brigade drilling?
Mince…mince…mince…mince…mince…halt!…about turn…wait for it!…adopt selfie pose!
BTW
My dad was in that early draft in 1947/8. He joined REME and was sent to Benghazi where he helped build the Garrison Church.
As usual, Monty Python got there first: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-2jLLMdEBw
Now, the numbers don’t add up. Not worth nicking the land. And how much do you really care about doing some killing, when you’ve got a full belly?
War has become a tool of ideology. The Cold War turned from Stalin’s paranoia about an imminent Allied invasion to the maintenance and spread of Socialism.
Taiwan is a rebel state to the CCP and must be crushed as Ukraine is to Vlad the Impaler. The existence of both states is an affront.
Britain didn’t really have to go to war with Germany in either WW, but felt that it did. There was nothing really to be gained from either action, except some assurances of security.
But hol up, my nibbas.
It gets worse the more you ponder the idea.
Conscription was a waste of time (ask any national serviceman from the 50’s, or at least if you were lucky to know relatives of that generation) back when we had a high trust, 99% white, 99% Christian society.
It would be an even bigger clusterfuck now. You know why. Grist knows why.
Also, those precious demographics.
People didn’t (want to) believe me when I told them the average age of a Ukrainian infantryman on the front is about 45.
But if you look at a graph of Ukraine’s demographics by age, it’s an hourglass. They’re trying not to conscript 25 year olds, because they’re in serious danger of losing an entire generation of 25 year olds. There’s just not enough young Ukrainian men around (thanks, contraception and abortion!). Gen X itself was a baby bust, remember. Things are so grim that it’s up to 80’s kids to fight WW3.
Here’s the thing: our demographics are about as bad as Ukraine. We can’t afford to mess around with our yoof. We’re already pissing them about at “yooni”, conscription is another waste of their time, when we’d really prefer they were buying houses and having English babies.
Remember getting married, buying a house, and having a couple of kids? That was good, wasn’t it.
We need to, as a society, get busy living, or we will surely be busy dying. Do I personally need to distribute copies of Barry White LPs, red wine and doobies or wtf, people? You were told to multiply. You don’t want to leave it to my offspring, I’m pretty sure at least one of them is the next Hitler.
“ Not suggesting that conscription is a good idea, but would it be possible to reactivate the Sergeants Major that retired in, say, the last 10 years? If they’re only going to be drilling conscripts, do they have to be in battle-ready fitness?”
You migh get some and maybe promote a few retired SSgts, but it doesn’t fill the pipeline.
One of the reasons battlefield promotions get treated differently after a war is that those promoted haven’t done the usual peacetime selection and training that usually precedes promotion.
It would be embarrassing all round if they went back and then failed the course so best leave them in the rank and note the lack of specific training.
Thinking about conscription from 1948 is that everyone will have had fathers, grandfathers, uncles, maybe even brothers who served, some of whom will have died. There was not only a sense of gratitude for their sacrifice but also a sense of duty.
It’s easy to understand why young people who might not have had grand parents who served don’t have that same sense of gratitude and duty.
On a vaguely related topic, I have just spotted this on Zerohedge.
https://www.zerohedge.com/economics/world-war-ii-didnt-end-great-depression
Now I think that the premise is wrong but the conclusion is correct. Essentially they are saying that just because production increased, it did not mean that the population’s living standards improved. Most of that was Government overraction, certain exotic things from the far east were unavailable, but the Americas were untouched by the war itself apart from Uboats and even then only from 1942. Anyway it was British gold that saved their economy.
Ottokring,
The Great Depression ended because of a change in Congress in 1947, to the first Republican congress since 1931, and they passed the Revenue Act 1948 (despite a veto from Truman) that cut personal income tax between 5-13%. Throughout the 1930s, Hoover and FDR just piled on taxes, wrecking the US economy.
The RN did take conscripts during the post-war period, not a lot, true. I knew one lad in the mid-50s who was conscripted into the navy and it was considered a bit of a feather in one’s cap to be so selected. Me, I was called-up into the 5th Royal Tank Regiment but escaped by going to college and then joined the RAF as a regular.
I was scheduled for call up in the fifties, but managed to avoid it to complete my apprenticeship and by deliberately failing exams. By the time I finished conscription had ended.
My friends and relatives who had served were unanimous in their experiences, it was a complete and utter waste of their and the army’s time and money. They all said that they did not want to be there and the army did not want them cluttering up the place. I cannot see conscription working with today’s youth.
As it’s an argument I’ve made myself of course it’s correct….