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Dunno how serious this worry is

A “double death tax” under Labour would add tens of thousands to families’ inheritance tax bills, analysis has shown.

Chancellor Jeremy Hunt has warned that Labour could not only increase inheritance tax but also start to charge capital gains tax on assets passed on when people die

Both could mean up to 85% tax on at least parts of an estate. They want to change CGT to be taxed like income. So, up to 45%. Plus 40% IHT.

Seems, umm, excessive?

41 thoughts on “Dunno how serious this worry is”

  1. That seems unlikely. However I am surprised at the lack of speculation about a switch to assessing IHT on a cumulative total of lifetime transfers plus the abolition of seven year PETs which would pretty much eliminate IHT planning.

    As far as straightforward CGT is concerned business asset relief is probably on borrowed time, at least at the present level, while the possible switch to treating gains as part of annual income and taxing them at marginal IT rates should be worrying a lot of people. It’s not as if various Labourites haven’t already mentioned it.

  2. We’re probably not going to get any GCT + inheritance tax double-whammy because it would affect too many Labour MPs. What they could do is bring pensions, life assurance, etc. into an estate because MPs will all have public sector pensions and their parents will all be old enough to have DB company pensions where there isn’t a lump of capital to inherit.

  3. It’ll be worth the sacrifice though, as all the 16 year olds, benefits recipients and immigrants will be sure to vote Labour out at the next election. Then we can move on into those sunlit uplands that Nige’s brilliantly clever crew are busy formulating. That’s the plan, right guys?

  4. How extraordinary that Labour has taken Jeremy Hunt into its confidence about this secret policy. You know, I’m not sure I would have done that in their place.

  5. Person in Pictland

    Capital Gains Tax in place of IHT might make sense. But then you have the problem of valuation of any assets that aren’t cash or securities and which are left direct rather than sold. Though I suppose you have that problem anyway.

  6. @PJF – I think you will find that people voting Reform are voting to ram a stake through the rotten heart of the ‘Conservative’ party. I doubt they know or care what Reform’s policies are.

    As for the story, the Torygraph is running a series of increasingly desperate articles about the horror of a Labour government. Apparently we are going to get massive immigration, rising taxes and trannies running amok. The horror….

  7. Treating Capital Gains the same as income is financially illiterate. Doesn’t mean they won’t do it though. Investment involves risk and gains accrue over time. To tax any profit from such an investment in the same way as, say, interest from the same money safely put in a bank savings account will discourage the investment.

    Indexation doesn’t quite do it although I do think some sort of Taper Relief would be reasonable, reducing the tax rate the longer an investment is held.

    My guess as to the reason Labour haven’t announced any plans is that while they want to do something, they don’t know what to do.

  8. PJF – That’s the plan, right guys?

    Whereas your plan is to bitch and moan about it without offering any solutions.

    Shrug.

  9. the Torygraph is running a series of increasingly desperate articles about the horror of a Labour government. Apparently we are going to get massive immigration, rising taxes and trannies running amok. The horror….

    Same with the Daily Mail. The problem is though that people have stopped listening to the ever shriller calls of the Tories and their PR machine, they just want to give the Tories a good phuqing kicking and Rishi Sunak has given them the perfect opportunity to do that.

    Personally, I hope the bastard loses his seat.

    Vote Reform!

  10. JG: You know the Tories are scared when the Mail’s parroting all the Left’s nonsense about Nigel. TBP “winning” the last Euros was all fun and games, but this is Serious.

  11. Whereas your plan is to bitch and moan about it without offering any solutions.

    It’s hilarious that you think us getting fucked over by socialists+plus+plus for the sake of some ridiculous five minute fantasy of punishing a political party is a “solution”. Most of the readership here is late middle-aged to old; we’re the ones who will be punished until our demise, not the Tories.

    “Let it all burn” includes our fucking homes.

  12. Person in Pictland

    I was wrong about “Though I suppose you have that problem anyway.” The extra problem with CGT will be defining the price at which an asset was bought. If the owner has had it for ages and has then died, how will you be able to tell what he had paid for it all those years ago?

    Or, if it’s a house, you may (may!) be able to find what he paid for it but how do you find what he paid for improvements and extensions and how do you differentiate that from repairs? Lots of jobs for the boys, eh?

  13. Steve, there is no solution to the problem of there being no effective libertarian-conservative opposition in this country. The majority just don’t want it.

    So my “solution” is simply to minimise the damage that can be done to us (me). That solution does not involve engineering a green rainbow socialist government with a hyper mandate.

  14. Person in Pictland: Indeed, a regular theme on ‘Antiques Roadshow’ is the surprised individuals being told the Chinese vase they inherited last year from a great aunt is worth £20K.

    There is then usually a tale of ‘we thought it was worth £50, we’ve no idea where she got it from and she used to keep her umbrella in it’

  15. Y’see, yours is the counsel of despair, PJF.

    You’ve let them wear you down and now you’re defending them like a battered wife.

    Some facts:

    * The Tories aren’t capable of winning the election

    * It makes no practical difference to us whether Labour gets a majority of 50 or 500

    * Voting is the only non violent option we have to potentially influence how we are governed.

    So logically, a Tory vote is a wasted vote.

  16. PJF, Labour are going to win a majority anyway, nothing’s going to stop that, and a 200+ majority in our Parliamentary system is no different to a 50 seat one.

    So the shit is coming anyway. However we vote isn’t going to change that.

    The question to decide on voting now is what gives us the best chance at the next election. Is it more of the same we’ve had from the Conservatives, or something else?

  17. RichardT – fear of losing out is a powerful motivator, and one the Tories have been historically good at exploiting.

    PJF is looking ahead with fearful eyes, I don’t blame him.

    But we were not given a spirit of fear, were we? We are pleased, thank God, to call ourselves Englishmen. Let’s live up to that.

  18. PJF – there being no effective libertarian-conservative opposition in this country. The majority just don’t want it.
    Suspecting you of being amongst the limp wristed “educated” middle classes of the UK, you’d be feckin’ horrified what a large section of the British public would cheerfully vote for. And if it came with some low tax/small state economic policies that wouldn’t bother them at all.
    But nobody’s been offering that, have they? They might go for Reform’s pussycat, handwringingly liberal version though.

  19. The slimmer the Labour majority, the more limited their mandate. Give them multiple hundreds and they’ll rightly do their worst. Yours is the counsel of despair; you’ve swallowed the media and pollster line that Labour can’t be beaten or held in check. I think people know they’re mad and dangerous and will wreck the country. I think people will be more cautious with their revealed preference.

  20. Incidentally, libertarianism is & always will be a crock. In the same way as communism is. Both go against human nature. People want what is good for them & everyone else to be forced to comply with their desires. So really it’s a matter of getting power & forcing people to do what’s best for them. And the outcome just depends on who gets the power & what they think is best.

  21. PJF

    Rather like the Democrats I reckon Labour would be extremely adept at pushing their agenda through with a wager-thin majority. The complete opposite of conservatives and republicans although in both cases the actual will to effect change is largely absent.

    Labour will win a huge majority and the infighting will therefore be brutal although Starmer may have more of a backbone than most of us believe but honestly it’s only a matter now of whether they get 450 or 550 seats (plus at least another 50-60 like-minded Lib Dem’s, SNPs and greens).

    50 or even 150 limp-wristed conservatives will make zero difference so let’s burn them down now.

  22. The complete opposite of conservatives and republicans although in both cases the actual will to effect change is largely absent.
    Do they actually want change? Do they actually believe in anything? Conservatives are by nature conservative. They wish to defend the status quo. So each time they return to power they try to preserve the status quo they inherit from the last bout of liberalism. So it continually ratchets leftwards. To move to the right, the last thing you want is conservatives.

  23. PJF – The slimmer the Labour majority, the more limited their mandate.

    That’s bollocks, and you know it.

    Give them multiple hundreds and they’ll rightly do their worst.

    “huh, we were PLANNING to let 5 million more brown people into the country, but since we only got a majority of 50, guess we have to do what PJF wants instead” – Sir Keir Starmer probably

    Yours is the counsel of despair;

    No, u.

    you’ve swallowed the media and pollster line that Labour can’t be beaten or held in check.

    Labour are going to win the election because of the way FPTP and electoral preferences work. We’ve had a supposedly conservative (lol) government for 14 years and they have repealed exactly 0% of Blair’s damage, so there’s no evidence to support the idea that reelecting Tom Tugenhat or any of the other muppets will “hold Labour in check”.

    In fact, there’s considerably more empirical evidence for UFOs and ghosts than there is for your assertion.

    The definition of madness isn’t doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result, but daftness could be defined that way. Don’t be daft.

    I think people know they’re mad and dangerous and will wreck the country. I think people will be more cautious with their revealed preference.

    1992 was a lifetime ago in a different and better country. If you think the Shy Tory still exists, make sure you bag a recent photo of the Loch Ness Monster while you’re at it.

    Wake up, Mr Freeman. Wake up and smell the ashes.

  24. Why would anyone want to hold Labour in check, Steve? He’s talking about minimising the damage when what’s needed is to utterly destroy them. To do that requires destroying the Tories first. Then ideally Labour moves as far to left as it can, because the further it goes left the more it leaves the electorate behind. Roll on 2029! (Or earlier with a decent bit of civil disruption. Learn from the Left. The electoral process is only one line of attack. The Left have never relied on it.)

  25. Then ideally Labour moves as far to left as it can, because the further it goes left the more it leaves the electorate behind.

    I believe I already mentioned the flaw in your cunning plan. The 16 year olds, benefits recipients and immigrants. Reform are just a bunch of weird twats, they’ll fall apart before Labour does. No opposition.

    Roll on 2029!

    What do you care? You already fucked off out the country. Are you even going to be on the planet in 2029?

  26. The 16 year olds, benefits recipients and immigrants.

    Like the people the Conservatives already voted to extend the franchise to in Scotland? What makes you think the “conservatives” (lol) are against giving the vote to all the immigrants they let in?

    Reform are just a bunch of weird twats,

    Compared to what? The funny little Indian man who wants to conscript our children? Or the fat munter with the sword who wants to trannify our children? Or the ones who want our children to eat cold lentils and live in ditches under Net Zero?

    they’ll fall apart before Labour does. No opposition.

    So let’s stick with the people who have consistently let you down before.

  27. BiS – He’s talking about minimising the damage when what’s needed is to utterly destroy them.

    From your keyboard to the electorate’s ears.

    The Tories are very badly frightened by what’s about to happen to them. It’s going to be hilarious if Rishi loses his seat.

  28. John – Rather like the Democrats I reckon Labour would be extremely adept at pushing their agenda through with a wager-thin majority.

    Yarp, so it’s worth reminding ourselves why that is.

    It’s because the Blob / establishment / TPTB / whatever we’re calling the rich arseholes who run things is in favour of the “left’s” agenda.

    That includes the Tories and the Royal Family. When Theresa May tells us she’s “woke”, she’s not lying. When Prince Charles went to promote Klaus Schwab’s weird and evil schemes for us to own nothing, he meant it. When bent judges make up new laws they’ve just pulled out of their own anal cavities in order to advance the interests of Just Stop Oil or Black Lives Matter or infinity immigration, they’re not playing.

    The “left” always wins, and the “right” usually loses, because the former are in positions of power and the latter are mostly fraudulent.

    Reform aren’t frauds tho, which is why CCHQ is melting down into a puddle of gay fluids and the press is going all hands on deck to try to terrify pensioners into voting for the blue half of the Uniparty.

    Faster, please.

  29. Sir Nigel Jackson-Gadger MC

    Reading some of the comments here, it’s almost as if some people in their 60s and 70s have done quite well out the Blair 27 years and don’t care to see it go.

    Personally, working still and earning well, I expect to see enormous financial and professional destruction from Sir Kneel.

    But I’m voting Reform anyway.

    Because, whatever kind of cunt I am, I am not the kind of cunt who voted Tory and got us into this position in the first place.

  30. BiND changed his plans, now on Rügen.

    From the Speccie lunchtime email:

    “ Shadow minister Nick Thomas-Symonds has said that Labour might ‘open the books’ in government and find the public finances ‘even worse’ than anticipated. ”

    If anyone didn’t think they ‘d open the books and declare things so bad that they’ll have to abandon all their pledges and raise taxes etc I’ve got a bridge to sell.

    (I was going to say “declare all vets are off” but that’s now got a new meaning. )

  31. BiND
    As another Spectator writer (one of the boring ones) has pointed out, the books are already open via the ironically named Office for Budget Responsibility, and we are indeed unofficially broke.

  32. The fact that the Tories have already doubled the national debt and impoverished the country is a positive sign.

    It means, unlike all the previous times Labour have slithered into power, there’s no pot of gold for them to grab and spaff. They can try raising taxes… but on what? We’re deep into Laffer territory.

    Labour economic policies are the same as Jeremy Hunt’s policies. Bad, but nothing we haven’t lived with for the last 14 years.

  33. UKIP record turnout at a GE was 12.5% in 2015, and they had a heavyweight headline policy
    -let’s not be a member of the European Union
    -let’s make our own laws
    -let’s make our own decisions on whether the farmland owners get their palms greased
    REFORM UK look on course to get 16% in 2024, and their heavyweight headline policy seems to be
    -??? Maybe feck over the Conservative Party for being bansturbators, nannyists and collectivists.

    I can’t make sense of why this iteration of Sir Nige is more popular, it’s not the greatest hook.

    But I like it.

    But as I’ve argued with relatives, avoidance of communism is far more important than any other consideration, so unlike the last two where there was a possibility of that, this one will be ok

  34. I did read that the plan for CGT to apply to the sale of houses of a deceased relative was suggested by Angela ‘Ginger Growler’ Rayner. However, I don’t think it applies if you sell a house that you don’t live in, especially if you’re a Labour MP.

  35. ” if it’s a house, you may (may!) be able to find what he paid for it but how do you find what he paid for improvements and extensions and how do you differentiate that from repairs?”

    You’re not thinking like a Leftist tax raiser. The solution to all the above is to declare that its the taxpayers responsibility to prove what the base cost is, and find evidence of any legitimate expenditure over the years, and in the absence of all that the base cost will be zero. Result – loads of people paying extra CGT because Granny never kept any of her paperwork.

  36. Jim said:
    “You’re not thinking like a Leftist tax raiser. The solution to all the above is to declare that its the taxpayers responsibility to prove what the base cost is, and find evidence of any legitimate expenditure over the years, and in the absence of all that the base cost will be zero. Result – loads of people paying extra CGT because Granny never kept any of her paperwork.”

    Yup, I expect Jim’s right here.

  37. Things are going to get worse before they get better.
    That’s just a fact we have to accept.

    The question is how do we proceed to mitigate the damage.
    There’s a shit load of economic pain coming. And possibly a war.
    But let’s focus on the economics.
    A cynical man might argue the reason the Tories seem to be trying to lose this election is that they don’t want power. They know that the economy is fooked / war coming and don’t want the blame. So they’re getting labour in to take the blame and crush that party.
    But they’ve misjudged and didn’t expect Reform to be so popular. So now they’re facing a crushing defeat.

    Which is good. We can drive a stake into the undead heart of the ” Conservative” party now and let the Labour party be killed off by the tidal forces of economics.

    Vote Reform.
    Because the Tories aren’t conservative.

  38. @ Chernyy Drakon
    You’ve missed lesson “he who controls the present controls the past”
    Keir Starmer – the former DPP who wants any Tory candidate accused of anything executed without trial (just as well that Alan Bates wsn’t a Tory candidate) – will control any information leaked to the MSM.
    Bloody hell! has no-one read 1984 as a warning rather than (as Keir has) an instruction book?

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