The distilled essence of The Guardian is Sir Simon:
Too many beautiful church buildings are going to ruin. Councils could run them better. Let them
Why not, erm, just sell them?
The distilled essence of The Guardian is Sir Simon:
Too many beautiful church buildings are going to ruin. Councils could run them better. Let them
Why not, erm, just sell them?
Councils could run them better.
Haha hahaha hahahahaha ha ha haha ha.
There is nothing anywhere that a council could run better than anyone. They are the epitome of uselessness.
We used to know an old kirk that had been converted into a carpet emporium.
These things are easier in Scotland because there’s no superstition about Kirk buildings. The logic is that a church is its congregation, not the building, or indeed glen, that it meets in.
It may also help that many kirks are rather ugly, being the product of building projects in the 19th century when taste in church architecture was, ahem, suboptimal.
Most councils would just turn them into Mosques to piss in the face of the taxpayers.
Was just going to post “No need to worry about councils running them – the Ropers will turn them into mosques” when I saw your comment JG.
Looks like Christians welcoming ‘refugees’ has worked so well churches are no longer needed
Jenkins claims to know and love English churches, but his books on them show him to be something of an ignoramus. Nothing but warmed-up Pevsner, a few vague subjective judgements on the feel of the place, and some nice photos obviously taken by someone else.
A crumbling old folly with poor foundations is bound to collapse at some time, no matter how absurd its ornamentation. That time has come for Jenkins.
Of course Henry VIII and Thomas Cromwell did for most of the religious architecture worth saving. Not much point in trying to save the more recent stuff.
Next they’ll be calling for a Kirchensteuer, the German church tax. Only this being the UK, you can choose whether your church is the NHS or the BBC.
How about going to church to save them?
It is estimated that 3,000 to 5,000 parish churches are either closed or used only intermittently, and don’t have a resident vicar
Huh, looks like climate changeanity, antiracism, LGBTQ and female vicars don’t fill the pews. Who knew.
The Church of England is out of its depth. It is pretending that it can turn the tide of decline with evangelism
The problem with that plan is that you need to believe in God to evangelise successfuly. The Church of England is evangelising this, which is the work of the other guy:
Stonewall funded Church of England guidance that said primary schoolchildren can be transgender
Controversial LGBT charity gave a grant for two editions of the Valuing All God’s Children report, which remains in use nationwide
Simon sez:
In Muslim countries central mosques are hives of activity
We know: Birmingham, London, Manchester, Dundee, etc.
The tax could be voluntary; in Italy, Portugal and Spain you can nominate a charity of your choice rather than a church. In Iceland you can mark the money to go to the humanists. But even in the most atheist countries such as Denmark, there is general support to pay what is usually a minimal annual tax to keep a local church in being
Or, fuck off and go to Hell, and I’ll keep my money. I’m not paying a License Fee to atheists in dresses. That money could be used for something useful, such as weed. “¯\_(ツ)_/¯”
“Of the 16,000 Anglican churches in England, 12,500 are listed as historic buildings; nearly half of those in England have Grade I status, marking them of exceptional importance”
You can’t have over 30% of something as “exceptional”. It goes against the definition.
“Some very few churches are already replacing benighted high streets, providing spaces for post offices, shops, libraries, food banks, schools, cafes, day centres, gyms, even breweries. Churches can be difficult to convert and heat. Seeking planning permission for their conversion can be a nightmare. But social enterprises in Britain are now turning over a phenomenal £78bn. They show the scope for local innovation when given the opportunity. Church buildings could be one such opportunity.”
This money is nearly all theft, taken from taxpayers under threat of violence and channeled in various ways to pet interests. They lack both the optionality and competition of charities, and the oversight and democratic accountability of government.
The last thing we should be doing with public money is trying to make old churches into gyms, with all the costs of changing listed buildings. Better to cross your fingers and hope some kids burn most of them to the ground and you put a good modern building in its place. Churches were designed the way they were for functional reasons around things like a bell for the town, the acoustics for an organ and choir.
There are tiny numbers of listed buildings that matter. They’re the ones that tourists come and see, or the ones that a large section of the town or village will get very stroppy about knocking it down.
He’s not Sir Simon. His byline is Simon Jenkins, which is the name by which he wishes to be known. Even the Guardian recognises that titles are a primitive throwback to the times of lords and peasants. Please stop tugging your forelock so obsequiously.
Simon Jenkins doesn’t know what he’s talking about.
And this is one of the city’s most architecturally important buildings, let alone churches. When Thompson’s St. Vincent Street Church was vacated by its original congregation the council also took it over, but rented it out to the Free Kirk. “In 1998 the building was listed in the 1998 World Monuments Watch by the World Monuments Fund, and again in 2004 and 2006. The Fund helped restore the tower, with support from American Express,” which gives an idea of the standing of these buildings. “In October 2021, Glasgow City Free Church were forced to vacate the building due to falling plaster. It has since lain unused.”
My church will be closing soon, after 122 years. We think we’ve found a sympathetic buyer who’ll look after the Category A listed building and put it to good use. It’s not the council.
David: Well, exactly. All this “societal decay” they keep bellyaching about… it’s a real mystery, isn’t it? We’re lucky if we get 20 in the pews on a Sunday.
Western Bloke:
“You can’t have over 30% of something as “exceptional”. It goes against the definition.”
It doesn’t mean they are exceptional as churches. it means they are exceptional as buildings. Churches, because they have been preserved, have a very high proportion of the total number of buildings graded “exceptional”.
Simon Neale,
I don’t think there are many “exceptional” churches. I can think of some, either because of a unique style of scale, but a lot of them are very similar. English Heritage will just list anything.
In a number of cases it is the local council which is the problem, refusing permission to demolish a far-from-lovely old church suffering from subsidence and leaving the diocese tp pick up the ongoing bill for maintaining and keeping safe an unused building, Does Simon Jenkins thonk that the three little pigs should hand over building maintenance to the big bad wolf?
If the CoE wasn’t faced with so many state-determined demands for its money it might be more able to practice its Christian profession (and to maintain its active churches).
Simon Jenkins suggests that the CoE should “exploit” its power to choose who attends Church Schools – if local councils wrere good at running things like education there wouldn’t be a waiting list for Church Schools – some years ago when I was living in Central London I learned that there was a waiting list of Muslims seeking a place in CoE schools.
My “church” meets in the dining room of a local community centre. But then we also don’t believe in priests, bishops, all the hierarchy nonsense.
Nae priest! Nae bishop! Nae master! We willna’ be fooled agin!
We’re lucky if we get 20 in the pews on a Sunday.
Hold my beer, in a moderate and temperate amount. Six is a good showing for our local Meeting. 🙂
Relative who was an undertaker took over an old chapel as his business premises which worked out well for everyone.
Old churches with graveyards likely present some additional redevelopment issues
“Old churches with graveyards likely present some additional redevelopment issues”
Not really… Do as the Medievals did: Clear the ground, shift the stones, if of historical significance, to a place where they’ll fit.
Very pragmatic people, those medieval blokes…
john77,
“In a number of cases it is the local council which is the problem, refusing permission to demolish a far-from-lovely old church suffering from subsidence and leaving the diocese tp pick up the ongoing bill for maintaining and keeping safe an unused building”
Are these listed buildings? If so, it’s outside of the Council’s control. English Heritage schedule it and councillors have to go along with it.
Most councils are quite reasonable about something like demolition, so my guess is that they are.
WB
I have become accidentally involved in a listing issue. A local ( Victorian ) building is about to be converted into a house. Great, everyone pleased, because it has been empty for ages. Some very important historical items need preserving, but we can work that out , we hope.
Council concluded that EH had to make decision. EH, when approached, simply shrugged its shoulders and said the council was responsible. Council annoyed because it wanted guidance and got none has sent it back to EH. And so it goes round and round.
My view on churches ? Set an age limit. A lot of the Victorian neo gothics are actually terrible: damp cold and poorly built. Convert them all into 24×7 Gay Saunas or something.
We are lucky where I live, you can’t throw a stick without hitting a handful of 13thCent churches. They must be preserved at all costs.
Ottokring,
That’s ridiculous. If EH are taking no interest then go ahead.
My general take on protecting old buildings is that it should be a local matter and that government should be forced to buy the building. The people want an old building to stay as a nice old building, the people can cough up for maintenance. And the people who gain or lose are the local people, either in that they enjoy the buildings or make a living off tourists coming to see them.
EH listed the old Renault parts centre in Swindon. And it is an interesting historical building. Part of it featured in a Bond movie. But does anyone love it except architecture nerds? No.
English Heritage will just list anything.
Ever tried to get a building listed? My wife (a historic building consultant) has, and that’s simply not the case. EH struggle to deal with their existing set of listed buildings – they’re quite reluctant to add to it.