The advice from a wide range of witnesses, including medical professionals, lawyers, palliative care specialists, and experts in the fields of disability, coercive control and other disciplines, has been to introduce a multidisciplinary layer of protection. What they said to us makes sense, so later this week I’ll be proposing an amendment to create a voluntary assisted dying commission. It would be chaired by a high court judge or a former senior judge, thus retaining the judicial element in my bill. The commission would then authorise expert panels to look at every application for an assisted death. Those panels would have a legal chair, but also include a psychiatrist and a social worker, who will bring their own expertise in assessing mental capacity and identifying any risk of coercion. In short, I’m proposing what could be termed “Judge Plus”.
Two doctors sign off being what protects from abortions which don’t meet the standards of the law…..
They’ve got to get the population down somehow.
Gotta have a commission, gotta bulk up the state, gotta have jobs for the palls.
It could be 52 doctors, it’ll still be equivalent to a rubber stamp wielded by the NHS. However there won’t be a waiting list.
jgh is right, of course, jobs for the boys and girls, the more the merrier.
On a side note, where is the Tory Party on this? It’s a wide open door for Kemi to step up and take a stance. But she seems strangely silent, on this and on so many other matters.
Agree with jgh, jobs for the boys was my first thought as I read it.
The fact that they’re making this up as they go along shows it hasn’t been thought through and that alone means the bill should be thrown out.
I think it’s worse than that. I think it has been thought through. This is the plan. Promise very strict controls then as the bill proceeds relax them. They’ve seen what happened with the abortion two doctor sign off – it’s on demand now – and are deliberately replicating that path.
Deliberately.
Nigel had better wrap up warm…
I agree with Tim that this is what’s been intended all along. They want to kill off all the inconvenient, costly old codgers and need a legal way of doing it.
I think it’s worse than that. I think it has been thought through. This is the plan. Promise very strict controls then as the bill proceeds relax them. They’ve seen what happened with the abortion two doctor sign off – it’s on demand now – and are deliberately replicating that path.
Deliberately.
Consider the irony if David Steel gets aborted at the age of 87 tho.
When Pat Malone gave evidence to the committee scrutinising my bill to give terminally ill adults choice at the end of their lives, his every word went to the heart of why the law has to change.
Pat’s father died a horrible death as a result of pancreatic cancer. He begged Pat to help him die, something he could not do. Assisting a suicide currently attracts a sentence of up to 14 years in jail. When Pat’s brother contracted the same disease he couldn’t bear the thought of suffering in the same way, so he took his own life. His wife held his hand as he did so. Both she and her daughter, who was also in the house at the time, were then subjected to a months-long police investigation. When Pat’s sister found she had motor neurone disease she was determined to go to Dignitas, and died alone, far from home, without her loved ones to support her.
Pat has unlucky relatives. Here’s why that means you have to die.
I think it’s worse than that. I think it has been thought through. This is the plan. Promise very strict controls then as the bill proceeds relax them. They’ve seen what happened with the abortion two doctor sign off – it’s on demand now – and are deliberately replicating that path.
Deliberately.
Maybe, and Guido is reporting that there isn’t time for scrutinising the new proposals:
I’m not convinced she’s got the brains to pull off such a stunt but no doubt there are some people who do know what they are doing behind here.
Whichever, it should still be canned because we haven’t had a full public consultation on the proposal which I suppose is the point of making it a private members bill. Its a bit like the way all the trans nonsense has been smuggled in, deliberately to avoid to a consultation, maybe that is their roll model:
And more on the Dentons report:
https://www.rollonfriday.com/news-content/dentons-campaigns-kids-switch-gender-without-parental-approval
Looking at it from the other perspective, I have to get the permission of a bunch of “professionals” to get permission to do what I want with my own life? What’s this? A planning application? You can fuck off & the horse you rode in on.
bloke in spain said:
“I have to get the permission of a bunch of “professionals” to get permission to do what I want with my own life”
Not really; you can DIY without any approval. This is about NHS doctors bumping you off, and I don’t trust the buggers to let them do that.
From the article:
“The advice from a wide range of witnesses, including medical professionals, lawyers, palliative care specialists, and experts in the fields of disability, coercive control and other disciplines”
An expert in the field of coercive control? Lady, we’re all becoming experts in that.
Not really; you can DIY without any approval.
I’m quite capable of servicing my own cars. But I pay the garage to do it for me. They have the equipment to do it properly.
I don’t see the slightest difference.
An expert in the field of coercive control? Lady, we’re all becoming experts in that.
Thank you SN. I couldn’t have said it better. It’s exactly my point. We’re subjected to attempts of coercive control every day of our lives by all sorts of people. But they baulk at this one. Fuck off!
Leadbeater looks like she spent some time in a Spinal Tap tribute act.
Anyway, Leadbeater? Got to be some sort of “beating the lead” joke there. Plumbum?
” This is about NHS doctors bumping you off, and I don’t trust the buggers to let them do that.”
No it isn’t. Its about the NHS supplying you a cocktail of drugs for you personally to take that will kill you. Pretty nasty ones at that, that may take many hours to kill you, and painfully too.
I think that most people have in their minds that this would be like your elderly dog being put down by the vet – an injection of something to sedate it, then an injection of drugs to finish it off. All done very tastefully, and calmly and with no traumatic consequences. When the reality is you still have to commit suicide. No doctor is going to turn up at your house, sedate you and murder you quietly. You’ve still got to kill yourself. And in practice that means a delivery driver bringing you a cardboard box full of various drugs, and someone preparing them into an awful potion that you have to ingest yourself and that will (hopefully) eventually kill you. And you may throw the whole lot up. Or some of it, which will affect the dosage and the effects. Or your digestion is so f*cked from whatever terminal illness you have that it takes hours for the drugs to get into your bloodstream. Or in some cases it doesn’t work at all and you survive.
Its assisted suicide in that they’ll provide the means, and not prosecute anyone who is present and who assists you while you’re doing it. Thats it. What it isn’t is some sort of wonderful service where white coated people do the whole thing for you, and you float off into the netherworld peacefully and calmly. Its the NHS, it’ll be the equivalent of being in a vomit stained A&E, with some foreign nurse behind the desk who can hardly speak English, and who refuses to give you so much as an aspirin to help with your pain because its against protocol.
I think if this passes anyone wanting to do it should have to watch a video of it actually happening to various people, including some where it goes wrong. It might concentrate their minds.
Yes, it had struck me just how extraordinarily ugly Leadbeater is, despite all the turd-polishing. It had also struck me that both Interested and jgh are right: culling the old whilst creating jobs for the boys. Win-win. It’s quite obvious why this, actually a covert key Labour policy, was not included in the manifesto but introduced in a Private Member’s Bill that seems to have been extraordinarily well-organised.
And Tim is also right: they want to end up with a system that mirrors that for abortion.
“I think it’s worse than that. I think it has been thought through.”
Of course it has.
Leadbetter hasn’t the horsepower to do this, she just happened to be the convenient vehicle for enacting Starmer’s wishes without the usual parliamentary scrutiny. The process is being run by that old weasel, Charlie Falconer.
My objection to “assisted dying” is simple. It changes the cultural assumption, that someone terribly ill or injured will want to live.
If this Bill passes, the assumption may become: You can end your suffering very easily and painlessly. Your family won’t mind all that much. Etc.
BiS
“I’m quite capable of servicing my own cars. But I pay the garage to do it for me. They have the equipment to do it properly.
I don’t see the slightest difference.”
If true, you are being extraordinarily obtuse. It’s precisely because so many are not “capable”, and can easily be manipulated, that this is an extraordinarily dangerous move.
I’m afraid that in this instance, for the sake of others less “capable”, you should be required to do your own “servicing”.
If they want children to be able to legally do adult things then its the same as the voting thing. Make them legally adults with all the adult constraints on them, adult court adult prison adult conscription adult sentences adult contract liability adult sex adult pron adult rental of bodily access. You cant demand children have adult rights and also demand children are denied adult consequences.
@Norman
I have to agree with the journalist who called this the “Indulge Esther Rantzen’s whims Billl.
“senior judge … a legal chair, but also include a psychiatrist and a social worker”
Is this list meant to comfort me?
I complained yesterday that the standard of judges left a lot to be desired. Psychiatry is almost entirely a fraud and “social workers” are the people who routinely hand children back to their parents to be murdered.
As for the horror of Jim’s description he makes a case for a specialist executioner service which will bump you off: “white coated people do the whole thing for you, and you float off into the netherworld peacefully and calmly”. Sounds OK, at least 9:00 – 5:00, weekdays bar public holidays, and if they’re not on strike.
They could be recruited from retired vets.
Leadbeater is just the front for this. She’s my MP and I’ve met her a handful of times. Involved in local community organisations, she’s got a very LibDem “all people are basically decent underneath” attitude — probably because the people she mixes with are those who do voluntary stuff and are basically decent underneath. I don’t think she believes that safeguards are necessary, and probably hasn’t met Mr Chesterton or his fence.
And she’s not proper Labour, she only got the nomination ‘cos she’s St Jo of Cox’s sister. No Labour Party branding on any of her campaign material, it was all “Vote Local Vote Kim” in pink, not red. After boundary changes, she would normally have lost her seat… but the local Cons handed it to her on a plate. They put up a candidate with a dodgy history who had to back out, and then parachuted in some ghastly woman from the Wrong Side Of The Pennines at the last minute and came third: if they’d just stood down then Reform would have won easily. So she’s cannon fodder to TTK, not a fellow traveller and likely to lose her seat next time round.
dearime said:
“GAs for the horror of Jim’s description he makes a case for a specialist executioner service which will bump you off: “white coated people do the whole thing for you, and you float off into the netherworld peacefully and calmly”. “
Has anyone else read Margery Allingham’s “The Beckoning Lady”? The suggestion in that was for a smart van with the County Council arms that would call round.
@Recusant
If true, you are being extraordinarily obtuse.
I would say it’s you who’s being obtuse. You’re objecting to coercion by advocating coercion. It’s none of your business how I get my cars serviced & should be none of your business how I choose to get myself snuffed.
” It’s none of your business how I get my cars serviced & should be none of your business how I choose to get myself snuffed.”
No one is stopping you right now. You can step in front of a train, jump off a tall building, shoot yourself, poison yourself, asphyxiate yourself with carbon monoxide, electrocute yourself, hang yourself, how many more ways do you want? Suicide isn’t illegal any more, you are free to top yourself any way you choose.
This argument is all about people wanting to get the permission of the State to do something they can do already. And for the State to make it easier for them to do it (at everyone else’s expense, naturally). Its basically people wanting absolution in advance for their ‘sin’.
But even under this law you’re still going to have to top yourself. No one’s going to do it for you. You are going to have to swallow the toxic chemicals yourself. And if your other half agrees to smother you to death instead then they’ll still stand a chance of being prosecuted for murder.
From the last time this was implemented at scale in Europe:
The killings were administered by Viktor Brack and his staff from Tiergartenstraße 4, disguised as the “Charitable Foundation for Cure and Institutional Care” offices which served as the front and was supervised by Bouhler and Brandt.[71][72] The officials in charge included Herbert Linden, who had been involved in the child killing programme; Ernst-Robert Grawitz, chief physician of the SS and August Becker, an SS chemist.
The list included physicians who had proved their worth in the child-killing programme, such as Unger, Heinze and Hermann Pfannmüller. The recruits were mostly psychiatrists, notably Professor Carl Schneider of Heidelberg, Professor Max de Crinis of Berlin and Professor Paul Nitsche from the Sonnenstein state institution.
Who can object to respected doctors and academics choosing who to kill?
Following the war, a number of the perpetrators were tried and convicted for murder and crimes against humanity
Oh.
I am completely opposed to this Assisted Dying nonsense.
But if they go ahead, then it has to be done properly.
Build a windowless library in each hospital. Once the patient has signed the form, whisk them in there and lock the door.
Inside is a second hand chair, a side table with a bottle of whisky and a single shot pistol.
If they miss – bad luck.
If the bullet is a through and through, then they just replace the book with the bullet hole in it.
Cleaning the blood shouldn’t be too difficult with modern fabrics and solvents.
@El Draque
My objection to “assisted dying” is simple. It changes the cultural assumption, that someone terribly ill or injured will want to live.
Do you know how old that that cultural assumption is’? It’s likely not much older than you are. It certainly wasn’t the assumption of my grandparents. Death was welcomed as a relief from suffering.
The bill proposes absolutely the worst way to snuff it. So many things can go wrong with a cocktail to be taken orally. And do.
Venous injection is better, but who hasn’t had a blood test where the nurse didn’t find the vein on the first try?
Maybe getting one of those stabby teenagers to do the deed would be better, but again, they often miss the heart.
A fireman’s outfit to supply 100% inert gas (Nitrogen will do, and is cheap) works in a few minutes. No discomfort because you are evacuating CO2. Maybe at the last moment a small receptor will kick in to observe that you have no oxygen but by then you’re going to be dead anyway.
Not that I advocate this. Personally, I find the knowledge that my last days are likely to be pretty shitty rather inspiring.
The NHS in Swindon had no trouble helping my father-in-law along. The nurse said to the doctor, he’s not doing well. The doctor said “Midaz???”. then she signed off an increased dose. Just like that. He didn’t mind, he’d have qualified for Assisted Dying, cancer everywhere. My point, if point there be, is that the NHS don’t use anything as gross as a toxic cocktail, just a drug that makes you not bother to breathe.
No one is stopping you right now. You can step in front of a train, jump off a tall building, shoot yourself, poison yourself, asphyxiate yourself with carbon monoxide, electrocute yourself, hang yourself, how many more ways do you want? Suicide isn’t illegal any more, you are free to top yourself any way you choose.
This argument is all about people wanting to get the permission of the State to do something they can do already. And for the State to make it easier for them to do it (at everyone else’s expense, naturally). Its basically people wanting absolution in advance for their ‘sin’.
But even under this law you’re still going to have to top yourself. No one’s going to do it for you. You are going to have to swallow the toxic chemicals yourself. And if your other half agrees to smother you to death instead then they’ll still stand a chance of being prosecuted for murder.
Do you know how hard it is to reliably kill yourself, Jim? None of the methods you’ve described are 100% reliable. Half of them no better than 50% Fail & the “cultural assumption” will be to reverse your decision by any means necessary with no reference to subsequent quality of life. And, of course, the “cultural assumption” will be you’ve made the incorrect decision so all efforts will be made to prevent your attempt. And if they’re unsuccessful everybody will be blaming themselves for their lack of success.
The truth is, for some reason people today ( in your culture at least) seem totally unable to handle end of life. Might be interesting to ask why.
As for the involvement of the NHS. Indeed. It’s hard to think of anything more horrible. We all know the NHS does not have best interests at heart in anything. And it wouldn’t be any different with this.
BiS – Do you know how hard it is to reliably kill yourself, Jim? None of the methods you’ve described are 100% reliable. Half of them no better than 50% Fail
It’s almost as if you’re not meant to kill yourself.
I know too many people who have succeeded, BiS. Suicide doesn’t solve anything.
“No it isn’t. Its about the NHS supplying you a cocktail of drugs for you personally to take that will kill you. Pretty nasty ones at that, that may take many hours to kill you, and painfully too. I think that most people have in their minds that this would be like your elderly dog being put down by the vet – an injection of something to sedate it, then an injection of drugs to finish it off. All done very tastefully, and calmly and with no traumatic consequences. When the reality is you still have to commit suicide. No doctor is going to turn up at your house, sedate you and murder you quietly. You’ve still got to kill yourself. And in practice that means a delivery driver bringing you a cardboard box full of various drugs, and someone preparing them into an awful potion that you have to ingest yourself and that will (hopefully) eventually kill you. And you may throw the whole lot up. Or some of it, which will affect the dosage and the effects. Or your digestion is so f*cked from whatever terminal illness you have that it takes hours for the drugs to get into your bloodstream. Or in some cases it doesn’t work at all and you survive.”
Why do you think it would it be done that way rather than the dog way?
It’s almost as if you’re not meant to kill yourself.
Who’s opinion Steve? Yours? MYOB.
“Why do you think it would it be done that way rather than the dog way?”
Because thats how its done in other countries that have assisted suicide. Its still suicide, not being euthanised. Its not someone killing you, its someone assisting you killing yourself.
Why do you think it would it be done that way rather than the dog way?
Because the dog way is murder.
BiS – Who’s opinion Steve? Yours?
No, God’s. He wrote a book about it. It was quite successful. Told us about how we should not kill other people or ourselves. Pretty straightforward stuff, but it changed the world.
My opinions are unimportant, because I am neither your judge nor am I fit or willing to judge you. But we all get judged, BiS, never believe otherwise. Nobody gets away with anything.
“Told us about how we should not kill other people …”
Well, except Amalekites and so on. Obvs.
“None of the methods you’ve described are 100% reliable. ”
And neither is ‘assisted suicide’! Look at the data. Not everyone dies. Some just throw up the chemicals. Some take them but don’t die, its rare but it does happen. No method of suicide is flawless. Well thats not really true. If you stand in front of an express train, you’re going to die. 100%. Similarly if you jump off a 20 storey building you’re dead whatever you hit at ground level.
For those that don’t believe me, here’s the NHS website:
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/euthanasia-and-assisted-suicide/
Note the difference between the definitions of assisted suicide and euthanasia.
What is being discussed now is assisted dying (or assisted suicide, except they don’t like reminding people its still suicide, because so many people assume its actually euthanasia), not euthanasia. No going to sleep gently in your armchair, never to wake up. Rather having to swallow a foul tasting cocktail of fluids, and a fair bit of it too. Then having to sit there while your body absorbs them slowly, and they start to take effect. All while you’re still conscious. And maybe suddenly wishing you hadn’t done it.
Not quite so touchy feely now is it?
Resumé
Razors pain you;
Rivers are damp;
Acids stain you;
And drugs cause cramp.
Guns aren’t lawful;
Nooses give;
Gas smells awful;
You might as well live.
Dorothy Parker
Steve. Fuck your god & the cloud he flew in on. This isn’t AD35. We don’t do witchcraft or fairies here.
I’ve experienced kidney stones, and almost murderously severe physical violence (courtesy of one of Charles’s house pets) which left me with life-altering injuries. Both were very painful. I think I’d put the kidney stones in the first division, though. They were unrelenting. They had me whimpering like a bitch, and that was after about three or four hours. I recall thinking that I could not take much more and that, if I had to, then I would be driven beyond endurance. I recall thinking, at that point, that running in front of a car, or throwing myself out of a window would be preferable. Fortunately, in both cases and at different paces, the painkillers did eventually kick in, and I was pulled back from the edge. Well, I guess I have seen a glimpse of what it is to live for between a few hours and about a week with very heightened pain (ameliorated by drugs). Pain that almost drove me out of my mind. I think I have some insight into what must be experienced by, for eg, a sufferer of pancreatic cancer, and of the sense of sheer bottomless desperation that that person might experience. But I cannot imagine for one moment asking anyone else to degrade themselves by finishing me off. I’d have done it myself. So I do not really understand why we are having this discussion. If you want to kill yourself, then do it. None of that bollocks about ifs and buts. Just place yourself in the path of a fast-moving diesel locomotive. That kidney stone pummeling my bladder, or the consequences of Charles’s mate’s knife shredding various parts of me, notwithstanding, I still could have staggered out of my town’s A&E and thrown myself under a train. I see no reason at all why a doctor or a loved one should be corrupted by that decision.
@Jim Similarly if you jump off a 20 storey building you’re dead whatever you hit at ground level.
I saw a bloke fall 8 floors down a liftshaft. He hit quite a few things on the way down but what remained of him was alive & conscious after he hit a pile of bricks & bounced. He even survived a trip in an NHS ambulance but expired in the hospital. Where you’d find a 20 storey building to jump off in the UK I haven’t clue. Pretty well all of them are designed so you can’t. Partially for protection of the people below, I’d imagine.
A train? You’d need superb timing. And even then. I’ve rolled an open car at what was estimated to be 80mph. Fortunately being flung out during the first inverted stage & sliding a good distance on tarmac. I got up & walked away from it, though I did need a considerable amount of embroidery done. The human body is a very resilient thing. Takes a lot to kill it.
And in both cases, you’re leaving some poor bastards’ done nothing to deserve it the mess. Possibly even to be found responsible. Because the “cultural assumption” will be it couldn’t be your own responsibility. It’s one reason why I’m in favour of assisted dying. No one gets harmed in the process.
BIS, hard cases make bad law, as Stephen Waddington’s Duncan shows us in the penultimate scene of Mann’s Last of the Mohicans:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8ZisDHg6v0
Who among us would not have shot Duncan? Certainly I would.
And yet that ought not to be the law, and Duncan did not demand it of his killer. What our individual judgment is at any given moment is not necessarily what the law must be.
Most people who are ambulatory and compos mentis can find an acceptable way out. It’s not that hard.
It’s good that these kill-me bills make it an easier process for those who aren’t ambulatory.
But the non-compos- mentis folks? Maybe not so much. Too easy to decide that grandma upstairs is getting to be a real pain in the rear now that she thinks she’s Napoleon. Too easy when the bill-payer says that Auntie’s using up too many state medical dollars.
Too easy to let a useless bureaucrat make death decisions for others. I’d rather just kill the bureaucrat.
” Where you’d find a 20 storey building to jump off in the UK I haven’t clue. ”
There’s one in the town not 5 miles from where I’m sitting now. I’m sure most large cities have one at least that or much taller. And I’m sure a 10 storey one would do perfectly well, with about the same degree of certainty of death as ingesting a cocktail of lethal drugs.
“A train? You’d need superb timing. ”
I live not far from a mainline, people step in front of trains on it all the time, they seem to manage the timing OK. I’ve not heard of one surviving an Intercity at 125mph yet.
“But the non-compos- mentis folks? Maybe not so much. Too easy to decide that grandma upstairs is getting to be a real pain in the rear now that she thinks she’s Napoleon. Too easy when the bill-payer says that Auntie’s using up too many state medical dollars.”
The thing is as far as I can see this law is not for the non compos mentis. You will have to request it, and be determined to have capacity to make that decision. Someone dribbling into their shoes or rabbiting on about how Queen Victoria is still on the throne is not going to pass even the most basic test of competency.
This entire farrago is on behalf of middle class people (mainly women) who want to commit suicide but can’t bring themselves to do it, and thus want Nanny State to do the dirty work. And to say how stunning and brave they are while doing it. Its nothing about not being able to top themselves if they end up with a terminal illness, they always could. Its all about the feelz in the here and now.
Its not even going to allow people with very debilitating/incapacitating illnesses that aren’t terminal to do anything about it. If anyone needs assisted suicide its them. People paralysed from the neck down for example. They can’t walk in front of a train, and they aren’t dying any time soon of natural causes. They actually need assisted suicide, should they want a way out of their predicament. This bill doesn’t help them one jot.
Jumping in front of a train is as selfish an act as can be when it comes to suicide. The poor bastard in the cab really doesn’t need to go through that experience because someone can’t find another way to top themselves.
@ Steve and dearieme
Some translations use modern English “You shall do no murder”.
Anyone who reads about the sacrifices detailing how you shall kill the lamb or turtledoves or whichever *should* realise that not all killing is prohibited [I feel no guilt over killing a baby rat caught in a trap that was in pain].
Not just Amalekites but also Philistines and Assyrians were legitimate targets when their armies attacked Israel
Starving yourself to death does work – provided you do it properly and are not just “going on a hunger strike” to gain publicity for your “cause”. Stop *drinking* (and eating but most importantly drinking) for a week (usually works in less time than that).
It doesn’t take good timing to get hit by a train.
Just lie on the tracks, one will be along eventually.
Happened near where I grew up. Two teenage girls went to sit on the tracks at a pedestrian crossing to have a chat ( which is a spectacularly retarded thing to do) thinking the were no trains after a certain time. Then along came a surprise train, got one of them.
Though I agree with BiND. Not nice to the train driver to kill yourself that way.
FFS think it through, Jim. You’re supposed to be one of the practical ones round here. You been up a high building? Normally there’s a bloody great locked steel door between you & the roof. The clue is it’s not an escape route. So what are you going to do. Knock on the door of one of the top floor flats & & ask if they’ll kindly let you jump out their window? And you’ll need a hammer. The windows generally don’t open more than 4 inches. As for the 125 special. Seeing you standing in the middle of the track with your hands over your eyes is going to driver a power of good, isn’t it?
Personally I think you lot are a bit slow. It’s been obvious to me we’d get to this eventually for years. Demographics. Medicine’s good but not that good. Yeah people live a bit longer. But there’s increasing numbers it keeps alive but not fit enough to look after themselves, let alone support themselves. And the birthrates been dropping for decades. So who do you thinks going to support all these old sick people? You fer instance. The current plan seems to be filling the country with low paid immigrants & their families. Working out well for you?
Now maybe it’s because I never had much of a family & never much interest in starting one. But I don’t think anyone has an obligation to look after me in my dotage. Especially since this isn’t even my country. So I’m planning on being out of here before that’s necessary. Something I’d recommend to others. If you’ve had a good life, why not accept you can’t have it for ever. You’re going to die some day, so why not die while it’s worth dying for? But why does it have to be harder than necessary?
“The thing is as far as I can see this law is not for the non compos mentis.”
If that were the case, I could support this, but I just have no trust in the people who will be deciding who qualifies.
Besides – people are dying every day, quietly and peacefully and painlessly, (if not voluntarily) simply by taking a very small dose of fentanyl. You can buy it all over if you know the right people.
If you’re smart, and are approaching the age when you start considering that you might not live forever and might have to go out painfully, you will have already purchased ten or so of these pills. I’ve had a bottle of morphine sulfate in the drawer for years, for just that purpose. Fentanyl sounds more effective than even that.
Jim: “Because thats how its done in other countries that have assisted suicide.
Simply not true.
“Its still suicide, not being euthanised. Its not someone killing you, its someone assisting you killing yourself.”
Why would that mean you have to ingest a cocktail of drugs rather than use intravenous injection?
“Because the dog way is murder.”
No it isn’t. Not if the law says it isn’t.
“No one is stopping you right now. You can step in front of a train, jump off a tall building, shoot yourself, poison yourself, asphyxiate yourself with carbon monoxide, electrocute yourself, hang yourself, ”
Not if you are so ill that you can’t get out of bed. I don’t understand how this isn’t obvious to you.
“Because the dog way is murder.”
No it isn’t. Not if the law says it isn’t.
Oh dear, another bloody troll
DM – Well, except Amalekites and so on. Obvs.
Yes. Problem?
john77 – Some translations use modern English “You shall do no murder”.
Yes, but I don’t think that’s a distinction with as much difference as people think.
But certainly, what is good isn’t always nice.
CD – Though I agree with BiND. Not nice to the train driver to kill yourself that way.
Suicide is always a selfish option that leaves other people to clean up your mess.
Jump in front of a bus/train? You’re traumatising some poor bastard who probably has two or three children to support.
Jump off a bridge/building? Somebody else has to clean your splatter off the pavement or fish your white and bloated corpse out of the river.
Hang yourself? Good luck to whichever family member finds you.
It’s letting the side down.
“Why would that mean you have to ingest a cocktail of drugs rather than use intravenous injection?”
Because the medics will not prescribe the lethal medication for self injection, as the patient is not trained in administering them that way. They don’t give out bottles of penicillin for people to inject themselves with do they? They give you tablets to swallow. Injections have to be done by a medical professional, and if that was going to be the case a very different law would be required, as it opens a whole new can of worms.
What is proposed in the UK is [quote] prescribing life ending drugs for terminally ill, mentally competent adults to administer themselves after meeting strict legal safeguards. As practised in California, Colorado, Hawaii, Montana, Oregon, Vermont, and Washington, and in Washington, DC. What is practised in Belgium , Holland and Canada is voluntary euthanasia, which is where a medic does indeed inject you with drugs to kill you, but thats not what the proposed UK law will allow.
This BBC article sets it out very plainly – medics will not administer anything, you have to do it yourself. And that means by mouth, they aren’t going to allow untrained people to start jabbing themselves with needles looking for veins.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2l7m6r55do
I note even the BBC have mentioned that it may not always work, so BiS is out of luck for the 100% success rate he requires.
BiS is out of luck for the 100% success rate he requires.
I’m not in the least surprised. The UK legislation is intended to provide an illusion of a solution to placate demands. Without the practicality. Like most UK legislation.
They don’t give out bottles of penicillin for people to inject themselves with do they?
Which is silly and inefficient.
In my wife’s home country they regularly just give people prescriptions for injections.
Go to pharmacist, buy the bottle, buy some syringes. Do at home. Simples. No muss, no fuss, no clogging up appointments unnecessarily.
Intra-muscular injection isn’t hard, I’ve done it on myself and others a few times. Junkies, who aren’t always burdened with an over-abundance of intelligence, manage intra-venous all the time.
All this gatekeeping of needing lots of qualifications to do low level stuff is why the NHS is so expensive and shit.
From a practical point of view, for a perfect exit one really needs to give the person a sedative first to induce unconsciousness followed by the drug that results in cardiac arrest. Because the latter can be stressful. So that rather precludes self administration., since sedated the subject can’t complete the process.
Of course some might suspect making something available that’s impossible to use might the purpose. The are no shortage of people who what is best for other people. Or their god does, anyway.
“From a practical point of view, for a perfect exit one really needs to give the person a sedative first to induce unconsciousness followed by the drug that results in cardiac arrest. Because the latter can be stressful. So that rather precludes self administration., since sedated the subject can’t complete the process.”
That method does however make it far far more likely that we would end up with involuntary euthanasia. If medical professionals are able to go around offing people, then they will when it suits them, and sort the paperwork out afterwards. Or connive with family members to get the legit signatures by fair means or foul. ‘Sign here Granny, its a card for your grandson!’ And whose to know once someone is dead whether they consented or not? After all the NHS has already indulged in a bit of actual murder in that field (the Gosport Hospital scandal), think what they could manage with an actual euthanasia law backing them up. The undertaker’s cars would be queued up around the block at every hospital.
At least under the proposed method its down to the individual to off themselves, no farming out responsibility to someone else.
Jim, it’s one reason why I wouldn’t let the NHS, social services or medical professionals anywhere near it. It belongs firmly in the private sector.
As I tried to explain in the comment about my father-in-law, the NHS, or at least the geriatric wards, euthanase patients routinely. It’s not limited to certain bad hospitals, it’s all of them. Generally it isn’t evil, just practical. But it won’t stand investigation under the law as it stands, IMO.
@ Steve
Unless you are fixated on Jael, there is a very big distinction. There are detailed instructions on sacrifices and a spexcial exemption freom Sabbath Observance if an enemy army attacks Israel on the Sabbath (or Yom Kippur if you are old enough to remember the Yom Kippur war).
@El Draque – “My objection to “assisted dying” is simple. It changes the cultural assumption”
There’s nothing wrong with correcting a false assumption.
@Jim – “For those that don’t believe me, here’s the NHS website”
That link does not contain the material you claim.
@Jim – “Injections have to be done by a medical professional, ”
No. They don’t. Patients can inject themselves. For example, there are many people with diabetes who self-inject insulin. All that is necessary is that the patient is competent to do it.
@rhoda klapp – “the NHS,…, euthanase patients routinely”
Indeed. By making assisted suicide legal we might have some protection against well-meaning people making that choice for us.