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Erm, well now

Carswell may be an outlier when it comes to mainstream conservatism, but the idea that Britain has declined because of demographic change is now almost conventional wisdom in certain circles.

Declined? Well, it’s certainly changed, no? And how many of us were asked about whether we desired said change? When tuppence ha’penny on or off the old age pension is a matter of deepest democracy when di the demos get that say?

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Addolff
Addolff
1 year ago

As i’ve pointed out before Tim: “These policies mean that future immigration will be allowed only in strictly defined special cases. There will be no further large scale permanent immigration”. Conservative Party election manifesto 1970.
For decades it has been obvious to those in power that we, the people, do not want lots of foreigners coming here, yet still, for some unfathomable reason, it is precisely what those in power have forced on us.

I believe the word is treason.

Silverite
Silverite
1 year ago

“One statistic such critics deploy is that in almost half of social housing in London, the head of the household was born abroad. The implication is that these are foreigners scamming the housing system. “It is morally wrong,” the shadow home secretary, Chris Philp, tweeted, that “48% of London’s social housing is occupied by people who are foreign”. In fact, these are mostly British nationals, although they were born abroad.”

So they are foreigners scamming the housing system, but foreigners who were given British passports by our weak government.

John
John
1 year ago

Well, it’s certainly changed, no?

Demos says this is obviously true.

Conventional wisdom in certain circles

a.k.a. 95% of the media, 97% of MPs, 99% of university students, lecturers and teachers, 100% of civil servants and 110% of luvvies all say THAT’S WAYCIST!!!! (and free Palestine).

Ottokring
Ottokring
1 year ago

Immigration always brings social tensions, everywhere it has happened.

So worried we’re the US elites around the time of the Great War that mass immigration there was halted completely.

It happened in late Victorian and Edwardian England when East Europeans fleeing oppression settled here.

Having seen this at first hand, the waves of West Indian immigration directly caused an upsurge of crime in London. It was not the people who came on the boats, but their sons who were committing the crimes.

The difference in the last 30 years has been the scale and these latest batches cannot or do not wish to be assimilate d.The same has been happening in France and Belgium, Germany and Sweden and now Ireland. It has become an universal problem. Above all it was an universal failure of policy. The politicians are so detached from reality that they do not know, understand nor care how the social fabric of their countries are fraying.

(The Poles have largely all gone home, which is a pity, seeing as how productive they were.)

Deveril
Deveril
1 year ago

‘…the idea that Britain has declined because of demographic change is now almost conventional wisdom in certain circles’.

I need a shower to clean the ooze of condescension off me.

Western Bloke
Western Bloke
1 year ago

“One statistic such critics deploy is that in almost half of social housing in London, the head of the household was born abroad. The implication is that these are foreigners scamming the housing system.”

The big problem here is that they aren’t brain surgeons, film directors or people building Tensorflow AI models. It’s not “scamming” the system. But the incentives are there for poor people with barely any skills to move to London. We pay to house poor people doing cafe work in Islington, Swindon or Merthyr. So, why not live in Islington? We don’t do the same with people above the poverty line. You pay your own rent. Which has then led to more productive people leaving because they can work on a laptop in Swindon for a lot less.

Combined with how big the public sector is in London, this is why the place is very red. The bollocks that people say is that it’s what is keeping the rest of the country going, but that is absolute bollocks because if it was stuffed full of productive, private sector employers, it would be blue. Whitehall, the BBC, all those charities that feed off government, the people working in the subsidised arts, the people who design wanky government buildings, poor immigrants. They all want bigger government. The poor immigrants want more benefits.

Other than the Royal Opera, why ever go there? Any book you want can be delivered by Amazon the next day. Michelin star restaurants are cheaper in Cheltenham. ,You don’t pay a congestion charge if you go see a band in Cardiff or Birmingham, and your kebab afterwards is going to be cheaper. And if you’re in a service industry you can almost certainly do your job from a laptop in Swindon or Wellingborough. It’s a crumbling museum of a city, with bad service in cafes that often don’t even have toilets and high crime. Manchester is more fun for night out and the Chinese food is better.

Western Bloke
Western Bloke
1 year ago

Ottokring,

The problem is that emigrating used to be a big expense. Not only in terms of paying for flights of land travel, but things like how you keep in touch with family, how you send money home. How to navigate the immigration system.

We have far more Albanian asylum seekers than in the days of Envar Hoxha. Which is just absurd. And while it’s not a perfect, free democracy, it’s a safe country. BA and Tui sell holiday packages now. The reason we have so many is that it’s £40 for a Wizz Air flight. Keeping in touch with family is cheap as chips, sending money via paypal or whatever is simple.

The old asylum rules set up after WW2 only worked because the costs were high. The average pleb stayed and fought, or made it over the border to safety. The people who came to Britain were generally the elite. Leaders, writers, experts.

Boganboy
Boganboy
1 year ago

‘yet still, for some unfathomable reason, it is precisely what those in power have forced on us.’

Reminds me of when Albanese got into power. The first thing he did was hold a referendum on giving the abos a special house in Parliament. Certainly I never saw this drastic innovation publicised or even mentioned in the lead up to the election.

Since you need the agreement of a majority of voters and a majority of states to do this, it naturally failed. To the horror and disgust of the left.

Jonathan
Jonathan
1 year ago

I always feel good when some Asian immigrant like Malik tells me why there should be more people like him in the country and fewer people like me and that my concerns about the English being a minority in their own capital city, as well as in Birmingham and Leicester, make me a Nazi who’s simply beyond the pale.

The arrogance and entitlement of these pricks is really astonishing.

Chernyy Drakon
Chernyy Drakon
1 year ago

For decades it has been obvious to those in power that we, the people, do not want lots of foreigners coming here, yet still, for some unfathomable reason, it is precisely what those in power have forced on us.

I’ve been thinking about this a lot recently. Which is quite difficult, having only publicly available information and being a random bloke who lives in North Wales, instead of a top level public servant type in the heart of the blob in London.
All I can think is that it’s a mixture of arrogance, fear of nationalism, fear of the demographic collapse and naivety.

The blob suffer from what a lot of people do – the belief that everyone thinks like them and are inherently ‘good’.
They believe that everyone shares their belief in freedom, socialism, trendy parties, whatever, even if they’re from an islamic shitholeistan. They’re just poor little oppressed darlings in need of saving. In their arrogance, they think that bringing them here will allow their inner luvvie to flourish and be expressed, instead of them inflicting their barbarism on us all involuntarily.
And why do they need to come here? Because the socialist policies have led to a collapse in birth rates which will inevitably make the economy shrink quite severely. And they need bodies to fight in the upcoming war with Russia and China that they’ve got their sights on. But if they conscript all the unwilling young white men, who is going to staff the war factories… Oh look the newly imported luvvies who are all doctors and engineers who want to live here and are totally not islamic terrorist sleeper cells.
How is this being done? It’s a mixture of useful retards who believe in this shit and a few well placed powerful figures who are going to make shit tons of money and are under a lot of political pressure. It’s also shown how Europe is basically an American colony. Trump demands NATO spend 5% and step up to fight Russia, suddenly we’re all targeting 5% defence spending and setting up to fight Russia.

It’s the only thing I can think of that makes sense.
A pox on all of them.
They’ve fucked the country. Civil war and tears of strife inbound. The England/UK of old is gone. Make peace with that. Without a 1930s style purge, there’s no way to root out the Islamic threat and I don’t think there’s the stomach to do that at the minute. Maybe a war with shortages might increase the appetite, but then all the natives will be sent to fight be slaughtered anyway.

AndyT
AndyT
1 year ago

I was once walking through a rather grim shopping centre that was being rebuilt to cover over the worst of the 70’s concrete excess. As I passed a couple of old ladies staring at the construction work, I heard one of them say, “It won’t be as good as it used to be.”

Ask people if they want change, and the instinctive answer is “No” – no matter what benefit that change might ultimately bring. Calling for “moar democracy” is really just asking to stop all this stuff. That is kinda why we have representatives who can occasionally make decisions that look beyond the immediate knee jerk reactions of the population.

And the illusion that this was “forced upon us” when we embraced the arrival of cheap Polish plumbers, and all of the other immigrant stereotypes is questionable. We the people made (and make) choices that leave the doors wide open to people who’re willing to do the jobs we turn our noses up at. It’s managerialism writ large – the weird belief that we can all be the bosses, driving round in Jaguars and sipping Pimms whilst someone else does the job. If you leave a gap waiting to be filled, you can hardly complain when someone turns up to fill it. Or be too surprised when politicians turn on the taps to keep that part of the economy flowing.

Yes, yes – there are different decisions that could be made. But tinfoil hat ideas that some small cabal has taken democracy away from us when we sat on our hands expecting to be spoon fed bucolic fantasies is nonsense. We dug this hole over two or three generations – it shouldn’t come as a surprise that we’re suddenly in the middle of building works.

Did we ask for the change? No. And? Was there ever an option for “No Change”?

Esteban
Esteban
1 year ago

In the US, large majorities of both political parties wanted secure borders and a stop to illegal immigration from around 1950 until 2010 or so (the fact that Orange Man Bad has taken this up changed the position of a lot of lefties).

Despite this desire of a clear and strong majority, again of both parties, the southern border was not secured. Who, what, how or why this was done I’ll leave to your imagination/theories, but the clear will of the people was ignored. Someone’s interests were being served, but not those of most of the people.

Likewise, I’m pretty confident the majority of British voters don’t want/didn’t want the immigration (legal and otherwise) they’ve been subjected to, especially in recent years.

Van_Patten
Van_Patten
1 year ago

I agree with the commentator saying they needed a shower – what a condescending piece. Murphy is welcome to the Ovserver to be honest if this is what the change of ownership has bought forth

Is there some minimum number of natives that a capital requires before it ceases to be the capital?” David Goodhart, head of the demography unit at the conservative thinktank Policy Exchange, wondered recently, referring to data that white people are becoming a minority in London. Perhaps, he suggested, half-jokingly, Nigel Farage might propose “moving the government to York”. Goodhart acknowledges that “immigration is not responsible for all London’s ills”, yet frames the city’s decline in terms of demographic change. So does Matthew Goodwin, academic turned Reform advocate, for whom “London Is So Over”, brought down by “a toxic cocktail of rapid demographic change, mass immigration, and economic stagnation”.

Nothing of this is incorrect – because immigration isn’t the only cause of the decline doesn’t mean it isn’t a cause – there’s no cause for unlimited migration, and a substantial case for remigration and deportation of millions.

JuliaM
JuliaM
1 year ago

Ottokring: ’The politicians are so detached from reality that they do not know, understand nor care how the social fabric of their countries are fraying.’

Detached from reality? Or simply insulated from it?

Ottokring
Ottokring
1 year ago

AndyT has a point that direct democracy butts up against ingrained conservatism. But it is worth bearing in mind that only those engaged actually vote. The rest complain, but won’t do anything about ( see Khan in London, personally a deeply unpopular man, but not enough people can be arsed enough to vote him out ).

Also : what is London ?
In the past, it was a collection of village joined together bit by bit by public transport down the ages.

What is really London is the small chunk that comprises the WC/EC, SW1, W1 and possibly N1 postcodes.

ps London is still screwed though. I have been twice so far this year : to go to Wembley and the Wigmore Hall. I am going again in October. I might go and catch the Dons in August or September. Tooting my old home is a very depressing place.

philip
philip
1 year ago

There are now 3.8 million muslims in the UK.
70 years ago there were practically none.
The vast majority will be net benefit claimants over their lifetimes.
And they despise us.

There are 100 million displaced persons in the world. Most of them are muslims. We ain’t seen nothing yet.

philip
philip
1 year ago

Otto, Tooting may be a bit of a dump, but you should see Brixton. It’s like the set of a zombie movie but with mobility scooters.

Steve
Steve
1 year ago

Modern racism has become loud and proud
Kenan Malik

Absolutely right, Kenya. White people aren’t putting up with your shit anymore.

Racism is the new rock n roll.

Andy – Yes, yes – there are different decisions that could be made. But tinfoil hat ideas that some small cabal has taken democracy away from us when we sat on our hands expecting to be spoon fed bucolic fantasies is nonsense

Mentally retarded cockwaffle, with a side dish of smug, and a jaunty sprig of poof. x

Addolff
Addolff
1 year ago

AndyT @ 10.12, I don’t know what country you’ve been living in since the early / mid 1960’s, but this notion of us ‘sitting on our hands’ is bollocks. Read my initial post – the Tory party had acknowledged that there was a problem and their manifesto said they were going to do something about it. In 1970.
In fact, in 1959, Fred Kite warned ” The next thing you know, we’II have the bIacks here doing our jobs Iike they do on the buses in Birmingham”.

The Tories were elected in 1970 on a promise to reduce immigration, yet Ted Heath let in 27,000 Ugandan Asians then took us into the EEC, with all of the freedom of movement that brought.

You’d think Alf Garnett, The National Front, BNP, Britain First and Enoch Powell had never existed, and don’t forget anyone who has dared to question this immigration has been deemed racist, vilified and ultimately shut down – there could be no dissent.
Our betters have caused this, no one else.

And there weren’t too many Polish* plumbers prior to 2004 either.

*My brother in law is Polish – they are nice people.

Steve
Steve
1 year ago

Yes, the idea that British people are complaining about Polish plumbers, instead of hordes of brown rapists, stabbers, terrorists and benefits guzzlers, is beneath contempt.

We’re ok with a certain level of white immigration, because we’re white. We don’t want to live in a brown country. Hope that helps x

Steve
Steve
1 year ago

See, Kenya, this is what we mean by British decline:

A British father alleged in an interview on Friday that local Rotherdam police created fake arrest reports to derail an investigation into authorities repeatedly arresting him for attempting to rescue his daughter from a child rape den.

The now-infamous case of a Rotherham father arrested for trying to protect his daughter from child rapists took a new turn this week as the father, identified only as “Jack” in the interview, claimed that the force falsified records of his arrests, using inaccurate information and accusing him of being intoxicated during his rescue attempts.

British broadcaster GB News reports that years after the 2005 rapes of the daughter and arrests of the father, when the so-called grooming gang scandal became public knowledge, the unnamed man filed an official complaint about how his family had been treated. South Yorkshire Police are said to have denied his claim and attempted to discredit the story by issuing a custody sheet showing that the arrests actually took place in a different part of the town, and because the man was drunk.

The father insists that the document features key errors, including the man’s address being given as a home he did not move into until five years later. The father told GB News he believes police produced the document to cover up what they had done to his family. The broadcaster also reported it has viewed documentary evidence proving he had no connection to that address in 2005.

Conservative Member of Parliament Katie Lam raised the father’s case before Parliament this year, asserting that investigations into the police officers responsible, not just the perpetrators of the abductions and rapes, were clearly essential.

She told the chamber:

Not one person—not one—has been convicted for covering up these institutionalised rapes. Why have Ministers refused to establish a dedicated unit in the National Crime Agency to investigate councillors and officials accused of collusion and corruption?

I am sorry to say that that unit must also investigate police officers. In one case, the father of an abuse victim in Rotherham was arrested by South Yorkshire police when he attempted to rescue his daughter from her abusers. He was detained twice in one night, while on the very same evening, his daughter was repeatedly assaulted and abused by a gang of men. It is clear that these criminals were unafraid of law enforcement.

Justice is coming. Remigration is coming.

john77
john77
1 year ago

@ Western Bloke 8.12 am
This may take a little explaining but the people who *WORK* in London do (help to) support the rest of the UK. Some of them earn a lot of money by doing jobs that are highly valued – i.e. that other people who have a free choice in the matter will pay a lot to have done for them. The easy example is that Lloyds of London makes a few £billion in each year (on average taking the bad years with the good), mostly from overseas insurance companies, *after* paying all the guys and gals working in Lime Street so the guys and gals (yes, there are, or at least were in the days I studied it, a few gals who were really good in that maths-saturated environment) are earning a lot more than they are paid and the taxes that they pay on their earnings go towards subsidising Gordon Brown’s favourite country. Most of them do not live within London but commute in daily. Other finance and legal “professionals” also contribute significantly more than they cost (when I lived in central London I was strongly in favour of performance-related pay but HR clearly didn’t take my suggestion, which had deferred payment with claw-back provisions seriously because my starting position was 5% of net value added). After we moved to the “Green Belt” I was made aware of the shortfall between what traindrivers are paid and what they earn.
It is trivially feasible, mathematically, for those working in London to be subsidising the rest of the UK while those living in London are a drain. It is equally feasible politically while MPs and journalists in the BBC and national newspapers mostly live in London.

bloke in spain
bloke in spain
1 year ago

@WB
I don’t give a fuck about desk jockey parasites. The problem is, London now produces very little of actual value. Go look around London “industrial” estates. Most units are are occupied by companies servicing desk jockey parasites or foreign exporters. There are actually very few people actually engaged in productive employment in London. There aren’t the jobs for them.

john77
john77
1 year ago

@ bis
Most of the parasites are in the public sector or HR. I was looking for a pay rise to 5% of net added value

Chris Miller
Chris Miller
1 year ago

Matt Syed has a why-oh-why piece in The Times bemoaning house prices and the country’s lack of productivity. As I explained in a comment:

“It’s a mystery, innit? It can’t be anything to do with us importing a million illiterate peasants every year, so whatever could be causing it?”

Steve
Steve
1 year ago

Chris – could it be Brexit? And climate change and racism and “toxic masculinity” too.

Western Bloke
Western Bloke
1 year ago

BIS,

The thing is, even desk jockeys vary.

I’ve worked on government projects where I’m burning money. But helping a local building company with their website is useful. There’s a bloke with his own money paying for me.

Bloke in North Dorset
Bloke in North Dorset
1 year ago

They really hate us ….

Graphic illustration of Labour being totally out of touch with its traditional blue collar base. Its MP for York Central, Rachael Maskell, says she wants more mass immigration and who cares about the cost or impact on hospitals, schools or crowding.

https://x.com/sharrond62/status/1944314735949709540?s=61&t=VX5cJ0-osgn_JSz7j-uowQ

Bloke in North Dorset
Bloke in North Dorset
1 year ago

Ah, 10 year old video. Never mind, sentiment still stands and this was about the time the current Home Secretary was holding up a sign saying immigrants welcome.

Steve
Steve
1 year ago

BiND – the policewoman who got her nose broken by Diversity at Manchester airport was crying about it recently:

She said other people in the car park were simply filming on their phones and “shouting stuff”. “Nobody came to assist. I felt everyone in that room was against us.”

LOL! I wonder why nobody wants to help the grooming gangs’ enforcers.

Fuck the police.

Charles
Charles
1 year ago

Change is inevitable. Adapt or die. And remember the fable of King Canute and the tide.

@philip – “The vast majority will be net benefit claimants”

That’s not their fault – we set the rules, so we have nobody to blame but ourselves if it turns out the rules were wrong.

@Addolff – “In fact, in 1959, Fred Kite warned ”The next thing you know, we’II have the bIacks here doing our jobs”…”

Typical extreme leftie. There’s no entitlement to “our” jobs. They’re just jobs. Whoever is willing to do the job most cheaply is the one that gets the job.

@Steve – “We don’t want to live in a brown country.”

You could blame that on global warming, or the failure to build enough reservoirs to allow adequate watering of the grass. But if you want to live in a white land, may I suggest Antarctica, which is very white.

Norman
Norman
1 year ago

“Change is inevitable. Adapt or die.” Indeed, and this is perfectly applicable to the obviously-changing climate. In our case it means adapting to a more Southern European lifestyle. Buildings with shutters, designed for a through draught; perhaps even siestas. The Southern Europeans seem to manage this so attractively that we wish to visit in droves, so it can’t all be bad.

Mass immigration, OTOH, has been a cross-party governmental action since at least 1970 no matter what has been in manifestos, and being cross-party has been impossible to vote against other than by protest-voting for various Raving Loonies. For whatever combination of reasons it has been imposed by the ruling class on an electorate that, in opinion polls, has repeatedly and consistently expressed its opposition to it.

This is not some kind of passive change that “has just happened, so get over it”. It’s the consequence of a deliberate policy which has been imposed anti-democratically. This requires string-ups, not passive acquiescence.

Western Bloke
Western Bloke
1 year ago

Steve,

“She said other people in the car park were simply filming on their phones and “shouting stuff”. “Nobody came to assist. I felt everyone in that room was against us.””

I saw the video clip after and she looked like she’d be about as useful in a fight as Sabrina Carpenter. I think that chunky northern birds could batter her, let alone men.

Stop crying. You’re supposed to be the thin blue line. People depend on you to protect them from the bad guys. The coppers I used to know would be all “tis but a scratch” or “you should see the other guy” with a broken nose. That’s how you should be.

john77
john77
1 year ago

@ WB
They shouldn’t send women into a fight situation (apart from Athena and, maybe, Lagertha from “Vikings”). Squaddies sign up knowing that some foreign bastard is likely to try to hurt or kill them, WPCs do not.

John
John
1 year ago

The well-documented exploits of “Lesbian Nana” emphasise the fact that nowadays WPC’s are every bit as bad as their male colleagues.

Even so, as a white British male I am still firmly of the opinion that men should not hit women. Other ethnicities clearly disagree.

Steve
Steve
1 year ago

WB – I saw the video clip after and she looked like she’d be about as useful in a fight as Sabrina Carpenter. I think that chunky northern birds could batter her, let alone men.

Definitely:

The officer, who said she was “petite” and weighed eight stone, told the court it was the first time such violence had been used against her.

Lol!

John – Even so, as a white British male I am still firmly of the opinion that men should not hit women. Other ethnicities clearly disagree.

Coppers are just thicko security guards for the rape gangs, so literally anything that happens to them is part n parcel, intit? If they wanted respect, they should have entered a respectable profession.

I will never forget those uniformed shitebags running away from terrorists in London. The thin yellow line.

Bloke in North Dorset
Bloke in North Dorset
1 year ago

the policewoman who got her nose broken by Diversity at Manchester airport was crying about it recently:

She said other people in the car park were simply filming on their phones and “shouting stuff”. “Nobody came to assist. I felt everyone in that room was against us.”

The police are the ones who tell us not to be ‘ave a go ‘eroes. And if you do step in and are deemed not to have used the minimum force required you could be facing a charge of ABH or worse.

Bloke in North Dorset
Bloke in North Dorset
1 year ago

That’s not their fault – we set the rules, so we have nobody to blame but ourselves if it turns out the rules were wrong.

Most people on here get that and complain the government isn’t enforcing the wishes of the electorate. As the much missed Raedwald regularly pointed out, immigration policy isn’t the fault of immigrants.

bloke in spain
bloke in spain
1 year ago

@WB “But helping a local building company with their website is useful. ”
I’ve run a building company & struggle to understand how it could be useful. Pictures of generic brickies bricking a wall? Generally, one’s customers haven’t a clue what they actually want until one discusses it with them & have seen the plot. And all our customers came through referrals. Best advertising you can have. I suppose if I thought we needed one I could have run one up in a couple of evenings. Front page, some blaa & the fone numbers. It’s hardly rocket science.
Web designers annoy me anyway. Most of them haven’t a clue what their client actually does or what their customers actually need. Probably the result of spending their lives setting at a desk in the dark & playing with themselves. One looks at the web site, is unable to find the information one needs & so one has to fone them. Unless of course there’s only that abomination a web form. In which case one forgets it & goes elsewhere.

Western Bloke
Western Bloke
1 year ago

BIS,

“I’ve run a building company & struggle to understand how it could be useful. Pictures of generic brickies bricking a wall? Generally, one’s customers haven’t a clue what they actually want until one discusses it with them & have seen the plot. And all our customers came through referrals. Best advertising you can have. I suppose if I thought we needed one I could have run one up in a couple of evenings. Front page, some blaa & the fone numbers. It’s hardly rocket science.”

Sorry, to be more precise, building supplies. You could order bricks etc. They wanted a particular option on some products.

“Web designers annoy me anyway. Most of them haven’t a clue what their client actually does or what their customers actually need. Probably the result of spending their lives setting at a desk in the dark & playing with themselves. One looks at the web site, is unable to find the information one needs & so one has to fone them. Unless of course there’s only that abomination a web form. In which case one forgets it & goes elsewhere.”

I’m not really a web designer, more of a combo business analyst/programmer. I don’t really enjoy programming. Hardware got so cheap it’s very routine. But I like working through people’s needs and figuring out a good solution. It’s actually the major flaw with most systems. Not the coding, but people building the wrong thing.

Steve
Steve
1 year ago

WB – I’m wondering if what we think of as coding* is going to go the way of punched cards. As you know, it’s already a severely economically deprecated skill thanks to our fragrant Bharat friends and their cheerful incompetence, and they’re increasingly reliant on LLMs instead of copypastaing code they don’t understand from GitHub.

As the LLMs get better, we’ll be able to cut out the middlejeet and just politely ask the computer what to do?

Like Scotty in Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home. “Hello, computer…”

Of course, this does imply a risk of somebody accidentally creating an artificially intelligent Professor Moriarty.

* Most coders being just low wage, low watt computer monkeys these days, they’re not smart enough to be able to code in Fortran or COBOL, much less Z80 or 68k Assembly like in the heroic days of yore. When Computer Men were real Computer Men, bearded and celibate high priests and grand wizards entrusted with the sacred mysteries of the Machine Cult.

Western Bloke
Western Bloke
1 year ago

Steve,

“WB – I’m wondering if what we think of as coding* is going to go the way of punched cards. As you know, it’s already a severely economically deprecated skill thanks to our fragrant Bharat friends and their cheerful incompetence, and they’re increasingly reliant on LLMs instead of copypastaing code they don’t understand from GitHub.”

I quite like LLMs for boilerplate stuff, but you always have to check it. It saves my delicate fingers some typing.

“* Most coders being just low wage, low watt computer monkeys these days, they’re not smart enough to be able to code in Fortran or COBOL, much less Z80 or 68k Assembly like in the heroic days of yore. When Computer Men were real Computer Men, bearded and celibate high priests and grand wizards entrusted with the sacred mysteries of the Machine Cult.”

Yes but the point is you don’t need it. Machines got faster. Trade more CPU for less humans. We don’t use assembly or even much C++ now because while C# is slower to run, it sorts out your garbage collection. So you aren’t poring over lines of code when a memory leak happens looking for where someone forgot to deallocate memory. It goes out of scope in C#, the garbage collector removes it.

We used to have a separation of analysts and programmers. Because programmers were often rain men, and so much of the job was technical. Someone else would talk to the users, write it down. Once the coding got simpler, you didn’t need many of them. I often refer to “blue collar programmers”. Blokes working in a company who had to do a thing for their jobs and figured out they could do a bit of Excel VBA code to do it better and gradually became programmers. They’re business focussed, they’re economic. And they’re the most suitable people for 95+% of the work.

For most work, the beardies are actually a colossal pain in the arse. They will optimise code far beyond where it needs to be. They’ll criticise performance of a report that is going to take 1 minute once a week in a code review. They will want to build a thing in-house rather than just buying or nicking a library that does the job fine. They’ll build a thing based on MongoDB because it’s new and funky, even though the rest of the team knows SQL Server.

Charles
Charles
1 year ago

@Norman – “This is not some kind of passive change that “has just happened, so get over it”.”

But it is. The world has moved on from a place where travel across one country was difficult and expensive, where keeping in contact with people who had moved away required time and effort to keep up correspondence, and where many people could live their lives in or near the village they were born in. Today a large proportion of people can travel around the world, technology means you can see and speak to almost anyone at almost any time. It’s as if today’s world is one village. Pretending that there are vast differences between people and places has become quite difficult and will get ever harder. Adding artificial barriers will keep getting more and more expensive and counterproductive.

john77
john77
1 year ago

@ Steve
Back in my youth when I was a computer programmer (mostly a trainee computer programmer) none of the guys, and neither of the ladies, had a beard. All of them were civilised.
Please do not descend to the level of the BBC or MSM journalists by following Winston Smith’s career of rewriting history.

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